Forced unpaid leave at ryanair
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I See the crappy reality every day,big dog.I Am not willing to sit back and accept being complicit in a "race to the bottom".We have not even a voice in our own futures!Why is this?Because we are being victimised,bullied and exploited by an oppressive employer.I Am confounded that people will side with that said oppression,and berate even those pilot associations and members thereof,who help their fellow pilots.People need to start evaluating their priorities,where their best interests lie.Payment of your wages is not a god given right to treat you as a sub-human.Change and determine ones own future,do not be so lazy as to allow others to take control of your existence.
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I know a bloke whose son works for Ryanair.
Poor bloke, you could tell he was a bit embarrassed about it. "He'll only be there for a few years and nobody else was recruiting" He offered in his sons defence.
I tried to console him by asking if things were really that bad, after all there are usually a few people on here saying what a good employer they are etc.
The bloke went on to explain about his son's Ts and Cs and I was actually quite shocked. It's a shame that pilots continue to help that awful company drag every one else's hard fought for conditions down.
I expect most employers these days look at Ryanair and think that if they can get pilots to work so hard for such poor salaries and pensions then they'll try the same.
The problem is that when these Ryanair pilots move on to a better company the long term driving down of conditions will already have set in.
What do all you Ryanair pilots think you will do when you are in your late 50s or 60s? When will you be able to retire? What kind of pension will you have? How many hours a year will you still be flying?
It's a bit cheeky complaining about your forced unpaid leave or whatever on here when you work for Ryanair and you're clearly dragging everyone else's lot down. You work for Ryanair, everyone knows they are and always will be a terrible employer. How can any Ryanair pilots seriously be surprised when these things happen to them?
Poor bloke, you could tell he was a bit embarrassed about it. "He'll only be there for a few years and nobody else was recruiting" He offered in his sons defence.
I tried to console him by asking if things were really that bad, after all there are usually a few people on here saying what a good employer they are etc.
The bloke went on to explain about his son's Ts and Cs and I was actually quite shocked. It's a shame that pilots continue to help that awful company drag every one else's hard fought for conditions down.
I expect most employers these days look at Ryanair and think that if they can get pilots to work so hard for such poor salaries and pensions then they'll try the same.
The problem is that when these Ryanair pilots move on to a better company the long term driving down of conditions will already have set in.
What do all you Ryanair pilots think you will do when you are in your late 50s or 60s? When will you be able to retire? What kind of pension will you have? How many hours a year will you still be flying?
It's a bit cheeky complaining about your forced unpaid leave or whatever on here when you work for Ryanair and you're clearly dragging everyone else's lot down. You work for Ryanair, everyone knows they are and always will be a terrible employer. How can any Ryanair pilots seriously be surprised when these things happen to them?
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Whatdoesthisbuttondo contains some very important home truths for all Ryanair pilots, whether they intend to stay with the company for 6 months or 25 years.
Time to get organised.
Time to get organised.
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Hey Button… no criticism intended…
Ask your friend if his son is old enough to vote, drive, drink, and enter into and terminate a contractual agreement.
If so… and if your friend’s son is unhappy, you can tell him there are other opportunities his son can avail himself.
Afterall, I would think that your friend’s son would have asked his father to review the T&C’s of the contract before executing the document.
Ask your friend if his son is old enough to vote, drive, drink, and enter into and terminate a contractual agreement.
If so… and if your friend’s son is unhappy, you can tell him there are other opportunities his son can avail himself.
Afterall, I would think that your friend’s son would have asked his father to review the T&C’s of the contract before executing the document.
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The above poster has singularly missed the point, which is as Ryanair is now so big and has done so much to reduce Terms & Conditions around the industry, there simply aren't going to be enough attractive openings for the legion of Ryanair pilots who aspire to better things.
The truth is that Ryanair is now a career airline for the majority of Ryanair pilots and the only way you guys are going to improve the lot of yourself and your family is by getting organised within your company.
Suggesting that individuals should like it or lump it is well wide of the mark.
The truth is that Ryanair is now a career airline for the majority of Ryanair pilots and the only way you guys are going to improve the lot of yourself and your family is by getting organised within your company.
Suggesting that individuals should like it or lump it is well wide of the mark.
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No… I don’t think the above poster is missing the point. There are other crew dogs out there with worse situations, such as at Air Atlanta.
Also how about those who are supposed to be represented by their unions across the pond? Not only were their pay and benefits were reduced, but no guaranty of restoration, or repayment of wage concessions.
Also how about those who are supposed to be represented by their unions across the pond? Not only were their pay and benefits were reduced, but no guaranty of restoration, or repayment of wage concessions.
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In the current market situation it is difficult to ask someone (particularly if he has upwards of 100k euros of debt courtesy of a FATPL &737TR) to rock the boat. Anyone with half an idea of the current market will undoubtedly take the U/L situation with more equanimity than they may have done this time last year.
This does not constitute an excuse, but as has been said ad infinitum there are too many different factions within RYR to make unification of ideas/conditions easy (if indeed it is even possible) & that was in good times , not now.
Ryanair capitalise on this of course, they do what they do to defend their corner far too well. It is the dumb pilots that have ALLOWED this, not Ryanair that have imposed it, if progress is ever to take place that is an important point to grasp.
The day they sacked Martin Duffy and everyone DIDN'T walk out the door was the day Ryanair knew they could do exactly as they damned well pleased. Nothing I have seen in my time there has given them cause to revise that opinion up till now. I don't know what it will/would take for the mouse to finally roar, but every time RYR push the envelope they continue to get away with it, what next ? ?
This does not constitute an excuse, but as has been said ad infinitum there are too many different factions within RYR to make unification of ideas/conditions easy (if indeed it is even possible) & that was in good times , not now.
Ryanair capitalise on this of course, they do what they do to defend their corner far too well. It is the dumb pilots that have ALLOWED this, not Ryanair that have imposed it, if progress is ever to take place that is an important point to grasp.
The day they sacked Martin Duffy and everyone DIDN'T walk out the door was the day Ryanair knew they could do exactly as they damned well pleased. Nothing I have seen in my time there has given them cause to revise that opinion up till now. I don't know what it will/would take for the mouse to finally roar, but every time RYR push the envelope they continue to get away with it, what next ? ?
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captjns - you may do well to read those posts again.they are simplfied but absolutely true.If all we have to compare ourselves against is the long term abuser of pilots (air atlanta) then we really are up a gum tree.I cannot believe that you still attempt to defend the indefensible.Going elsewhere is an ever reducing option and terms in fr are still continually going south.How do you propose we get them back to pre 2003 conditions,if you say "market forces will dictate",i'll laugh my as off.Take off the blinkers buddy.
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Grim… I don’t where blinder unless I am flying simulated instruments.
I don’t blame the airlines… I blame the pilots.
Executives of many corporations, not limited to just airlines, but many corporations are like bratty children… if they can get away with naughty behavior unchecked… then they will... and their behavior only get worse in unchecked.
Not only on your side of the Atlantic, but US pilots, who are members of ALPA who relied on their respective MECs for guidance, have rolled over and accepted concessions in pay and benefits under the delusion of having all restored to pre 9/11 levels.
The subject seems to be changed rather quickly when devout ALPA members are asked… “Hey guys how one union for all pilots and unite as one union?”
Riddle me this Grim… if one group of pilots from one airline can’t unite… then how do you expect… well you can finish the rest of the supposition.
I don’t blame the airlines… I blame the pilots.
Executives of many corporations, not limited to just airlines, but many corporations are like bratty children… if they can get away with naughty behavior unchecked… then they will... and their behavior only get worse in unchecked.
Not only on your side of the Atlantic, but US pilots, who are members of ALPA who relied on their respective MECs for guidance, have rolled over and accepted concessions in pay and benefits under the delusion of having all restored to pre 9/11 levels.
The subject seems to be changed rather quickly when devout ALPA members are asked… “Hey guys how one union for all pilots and unite as one union?”
Riddle me this Grim… if one group of pilots from one airline can’t unite… then how do you expect… well you can finish the rest of the supposition.
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Have Ryanair pilots ever actually stood up to their employer to stop them doing something?
You can see why the company tries it on like this and knows they can get away with it. What's the worst that happens? People complaining on the internet? That'll learn 'em.
I wonder how far Ryanair will go before any employee or group of employees will think ' that's enough'.
You can see why the company tries it on like this and knows they can get away with it. What's the worst that happens? People complaining on the internet? That'll learn 'em.
I wonder how far Ryanair will go before any employee or group of employees will think ' that's enough'.
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Surfer07.
Back in 1972
When I left Oxford, my first job with a Major Scheduled & Charter operator had me as a second officer (co-pilot) on a salary of £100 per month which was £50 per month less than a senior cabin crew member.
So whats new about that ? Nothing.
Back in 1972
When I left Oxford, my first job with a Major Scheduled & Charter operator had me as a second officer (co-pilot) on a salary of £100 per month which was £50 per month less than a senior cabin crew member.
So whats new about that ? Nothing.
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The real issue to watch out for is that companies want their employees to be contractors. It's a bean counter's wetdream, nothing but contractors to bring in and dismiss according to business needs. Job and income security for the crew? Gone.
This will happen in many more so called "good" airlines in the coming years.
This will happen in many more so called "good" airlines in the coming years.
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Don't shoot please
I've been watching this thread for some time now...
I am not a pilot, but a PU with FR, so please allow my 2 cents to be thrown on the table.
I understand why FR's T&C's of employment upset some of you; but it seems that most of you are OK with it. Why?
Well the way i see it, some of you are grateful having a job within the airline and getting loads of money for doing it (well more than your average Jimmy Common anyway)
It's a steady job, steady roster, you go to work, fly new and shiny airplanes, get to work with nice crew and be pleased when you pick up your sector cheque and more pleased when your basic reaches your bank account.
Now, if you don't like that, then why don't you just LEAVE?
You are accusing FR of "taking advantage" of you and/or that they treat you like a "slave" and "bully" you. Well news flash my dear, you ARE a slave! You are an employee, not the EMPLOYER. As long as your bills being paid depend on when FR's paying your wages, you ought to sit down, shut up and type the pin code.
I am really fed up with the moaning going around. Folks, no union out there will ever back you up. And for FR to accept&recognize an union... Come on, what would you do if you'd own an airline?
When's the last time you had a reality check and smelt the coffee while at it?
Well i have one everyday and i am grateful i still HAVE a job to go to and i get paid a lot of money for flying up to maybe 20hrs a week.
The pilots i work with every day, 5 days a week are all very happy, content and feel settled in the job. Yes you get to hear them moaning about money, mortgages, bills and so on. But i have never heard a pilot saying "Oh, RYR are so sh!t".
Wake up, smell the coffee, pinch yourself and realize you are lucky.
Stop being so bloody selfish and listen to auntie ATS, don't get so greedy, your time will come...
As for Mr. Grim... I do not know if you are working for FR but if you do, one can tell you absolute hate them. Well then, just leave son, find a better airline to work for. And i am not very sure about your... competence shall we say. You tell me what respectable pilot uses words/phrases such as "big dog", "brotha'", "blah blah blah" on an Internet forum discussing about T&Cs at FR. Opinions are valued, chavvy behavior is not.
Having said that, i shall crawl back under the stone (blanket) i came from.
Rgds,
ATS
I am not a pilot, but a PU with FR, so please allow my 2 cents to be thrown on the table.
I understand why FR's T&C's of employment upset some of you; but it seems that most of you are OK with it. Why?
Well the way i see it, some of you are grateful having a job within the airline and getting loads of money for doing it (well more than your average Jimmy Common anyway)
It's a steady job, steady roster, you go to work, fly new and shiny airplanes, get to work with nice crew and be pleased when you pick up your sector cheque and more pleased when your basic reaches your bank account.
Now, if you don't like that, then why don't you just LEAVE?
You are accusing FR of "taking advantage" of you and/or that they treat you like a "slave" and "bully" you. Well news flash my dear, you ARE a slave! You are an employee, not the EMPLOYER. As long as your bills being paid depend on when FR's paying your wages, you ought to sit down, shut up and type the pin code.
I am really fed up with the moaning going around. Folks, no union out there will ever back you up. And for FR to accept&recognize an union... Come on, what would you do if you'd own an airline?
When's the last time you had a reality check and smelt the coffee while at it?
Well i have one everyday and i am grateful i still HAVE a job to go to and i get paid a lot of money for flying up to maybe 20hrs a week.
The pilots i work with every day, 5 days a week are all very happy, content and feel settled in the job. Yes you get to hear them moaning about money, mortgages, bills and so on. But i have never heard a pilot saying "Oh, RYR are so sh!t".
Wake up, smell the coffee, pinch yourself and realize you are lucky.
Stop being so bloody selfish and listen to auntie ATS, don't get so greedy, your time will come...
As for Mr. Grim... I do not know if you are working for FR but if you do, one can tell you absolute hate them. Well then, just leave son, find a better airline to work for. And i am not very sure about your... competence shall we say. You tell me what respectable pilot uses words/phrases such as "big dog", "brotha'", "blah blah blah" on an Internet forum discussing about T&Cs at FR. Opinions are valued, chavvy behavior is not.
Having said that, i shall crawl back under the stone (blanket) i came from.
Rgds,
ATS
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PU - could think of lots of things that it could be for this poster.
But in FR it's the No.1 cabin crew member.
If you think the pilots are hard done by, it's nothing compared to the cabin crew.
But in FR it's the No.1 cabin crew member.
If you think the pilots are hard done by, it's nothing compared to the cabin crew.
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Some interesting comments and arguments coming out in this thread, although I'm an "outsider" I can't help thinking that if these are your T&C's and you are not happy with that what did you accept them? Was it a case of "it will never happen to me"?
I myself could never afford to lose a weeks pay but then I'm only paid 28k for my job and that includes around 30% shift and weekend allowances.
In a world where the cost of an item in a shop is the same regardless of what you are paid I would certainly accept your pay with the T&C's mentioned. Just compare your wages with your countries average and then ask if you are hard done by.
I myself could never afford to lose a weeks pay but then I'm only paid 28k for my job and that includes around 30% shift and weekend allowances.
In a world where the cost of an item in a shop is the same regardless of what you are paid I would certainly accept your pay with the T&C's mentioned. Just compare your wages with your countries average and then ask if you are hard done by.
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Clicker,
You are missing an important point though:
Not all jobs have a training cost of approaching £100,000 do they? It can take years to pay off a debt that size....
To all FR pilots though:
When I read the posts by some of you it beggars belief. I never NEVER see you comparing yourself to BA, Virgin, Cathay, Southwest etc. It always seems to be: look at those poor b£ggers at Atlanta, Excel, Zoom etc.
These airlines were always towards the bottom of the pile in terms of pay, and that to me seems to be where you guys are happy to be.
If only you looked beyond the MOL bullsh£t, you would see just how badly you are paid in terms of your peers.
For a change, you should look up, not down.
Remember, it costs nothing to be united and ambitious. But, it seems to be costing you the earth having a defeatist, split pilot workforce.
FR are probably here to stay as big players in our industry. You could be flag bearers for terms and conditions, not the weak, divided bunch that you are.....
You are missing an important point though:
Not all jobs have a training cost of approaching £100,000 do they? It can take years to pay off a debt that size....
To all FR pilots though:
When I read the posts by some of you it beggars belief. I never NEVER see you comparing yourself to BA, Virgin, Cathay, Southwest etc. It always seems to be: look at those poor b£ggers at Atlanta, Excel, Zoom etc.
These airlines were always towards the bottom of the pile in terms of pay, and that to me seems to be where you guys are happy to be.
If only you looked beyond the MOL bullsh£t, you would see just how badly you are paid in terms of your peers.
For a change, you should look up, not down.
Remember, it costs nothing to be united and ambitious. But, it seems to be costing you the earth having a defeatist, split pilot workforce.
FR are probably here to stay as big players in our industry. You could be flag bearers for terms and conditions, not the weak, divided bunch that you are.....