Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?
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"CC" is short for "Company Council" - a group of pilots elected by the Balpa members in an individual airline who negotiate with their management on matters relating to their company, assisted as required by professional negotiators from Balpa head office.
However, the question about support is a strange one. Balpa at BA has an incredibly high membership percentage compared to some UK airlines, and if they really believe that this new airline shouldn't happen then all they have to do is to vote for strike action. 90 something % of BA pilots walking out and standing over smoking braziers on picket lines at LHR and LGW would certainly have an effect, I should think. Until they are prepared to do that they shouldn't be calling on other pilots, who might need a job, not to apply for one if it is advertised.
Just before I run for cover I would quickly add that I am a Balpa member at a UK airline, I don't work for BA, I don't want to work for BA and I don't want to work for Open Skies so have no vested interest.
"CC" is short for "Company Council" - a group of pilots elected by the Balpa members in an individual airline who negotiate with their management on matters relating to their company, assisted as required by professional negotiators from Balpa head office.
However, the question about support is a strange one. Balpa at BA has an incredibly high membership percentage compared to some UK airlines, and if they really believe that this new airline shouldn't happen then all they have to do is to vote for strike action. 90 something % of BA pilots walking out and standing over smoking braziers on picket lines at LHR and LGW would certainly have an effect, I should think. Until they are prepared to do that they shouldn't be calling on other pilots, who might need a job, not to apply for one if it is advertised.
Just before I run for cover I would quickly add that I am a Balpa member at a UK airline, I don't work for BA, I don't want to work for BA and I don't want to work for Open Skies so have no vested interest.
Last edited by excrab; 23rd Mar 2008 at 23:18.
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No, the BA pilots do not DESERVE any support, they certainly haven't supported anyone else in the past, and are very unlikely to do so in the future.
Their chosen mouthpiece, BALPA, is the most perfidious bunch ever to disgrace the co-operative movement, association, union, call it what you will. As an ex DAN captain I can vouch for this. Regrettably however, the T&Cs that they negotiate entirely for themselves do act as a benchmark and these do have an effect on the whole pilot community well-being. Galling though it may be to support them and their jackals, it is probably a necessary evil. It will be interesting to review the outcome in the future.
Their chosen mouthpiece, BALPA, is the most perfidious bunch ever to disgrace the co-operative movement, association, union, call it what you will. As an ex DAN captain I can vouch for this. Regrettably however, the T&Cs that they negotiate entirely for themselves do act as a benchmark and these do have an effect on the whole pilot community well-being. Galling though it may be to support them and their jackals, it is probably a necessary evil. It will be interesting to review the outcome in the future.
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Until they are prepared to do that they shouldn't be calling on other pilots, who might need a job, not to apply for one if it is advertised.
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Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?
Good question - overall I think in the interests of the industry as a whole the answer has to be yes.
That said, IMHO, there are one or two individuals posting on Pprune who are doing an injustice to their cause.
Any attempts at intimidation here do not do the majority of BA pilots any favours. Start calling people "Scabs" (charming term from the dark ages) if you must once you've got yourself a strike action. At the moment intimidation is likely to lose you support and harden the resolve of those considering Openskies.
The T's & C's offered by Openskies may not be as good as what's on offer at BA but the stark reality is compared to quite a few other companies they're not bad. The fact is people will be interested and apply no matter what is posted here.
There also seems to be an arrogance over the qualifications/selection into mainstream BA compared to OS. This is not helped wth quotes from BALPA spokesmen, like:
"This is going to create flight crews that are not as well-trained and experienced as those currently employed - it's a major problem."
and other references to less able/qualified pilots.
What unsubstantiated rubbish this is arrogant and insulting to the rest of the pilot community. There are plenty of excellent pilots around who chose not to apply to BA or even attended Cranebank and didn't quite fit their mould.
MD
Good question - overall I think in the interests of the industry as a whole the answer has to be yes.
That said, IMHO, there are one or two individuals posting on Pprune who are doing an injustice to their cause.
Any attempts at intimidation here do not do the majority of BA pilots any favours. Start calling people "Scabs" (charming term from the dark ages) if you must once you've got yourself a strike action. At the moment intimidation is likely to lose you support and harden the resolve of those considering Openskies.
The T's & C's offered by Openskies may not be as good as what's on offer at BA but the stark reality is compared to quite a few other companies they're not bad. The fact is people will be interested and apply no matter what is posted here.
There also seems to be an arrogance over the qualifications/selection into mainstream BA compared to OS. This is not helped wth quotes from BALPA spokesmen, like:
"This is going to create flight crews that are not as well-trained and experienced as those currently employed - it's a major problem."
and other references to less able/qualified pilots.
What unsubstantiated rubbish this is arrogant and insulting to the rest of the pilot community. There are plenty of excellent pilots around who chose not to apply to BA or even attended Cranebank and didn't quite fit their mould.
MD
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Twelve months ago, in a galaxy far, far away....
Mmmmm?
Anything you want to share with us Min Drag?
No wonder you are so outraged at "references to less able/qualified pilots."
I am currently flying 757's but am looking to improve my lifestyle and move to France
Anything you want to share with us Min Drag?
No wonder you are so outraged at "references to less able/qualified pilots."
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 24th Mar 2008 at 12:46.
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Are BA's conditions really a benchmark nowadays?
We now see some airlines charging for type ratings and even for line training, however these ideas were not developed by any flag carrier in Europe. If an airline wishes to erode their Ts & Cs then they don't wait for innovative ideas to be formed by large airlines. With the unstable economic environment - if our employer perceives that they have a need to erode our conditions then they will, regardless if BA lead or not.
The working life for flight crew has changed over the past decade or so, with flag carriers now offering a working life which is becoming rarer as time passes with the touring and night stops etc. Many LCCs and smaller airlines like to advertise that if you join us then you don't night stop and you get home every night. Also coupled to that is the fixed roster that easyJet and others now offer. For some people this is a significant benefit but none of these initiatives have been modeled on any flag carrier airline such as BA.
Airline management now need to be as ruthless as ever and they won't hesitate in altering our conditions or lifestyle for the worse if they see a need for it and they won't wait for big brother for follow. With the business models and the resulting working practices being quite different between BA and many other airlines, the days of comparing 'like with like' are starting to become numbered. If conditions were altered for the worse at BA - I don't necessarily see that the ripple effect will be as large as some may think.
The working life for flight crew has changed over the past decade or so, with flag carriers now offering a working life which is becoming rarer as time passes with the touring and night stops etc. Many LCCs and smaller airlines like to advertise that if you join us then you don't night stop and you get home every night. Also coupled to that is the fixed roster that easyJet and others now offer. For some people this is a significant benefit but none of these initiatives have been modeled on any flag carrier airline such as BA.
Airline management now need to be as ruthless as ever and they won't hesitate in altering our conditions or lifestyle for the worse if they see a need for it and they won't wait for big brother for follow. With the business models and the resulting working practices being quite different between BA and many other airlines, the days of comparing 'like with like' are starting to become numbered. If conditions were altered for the worse at BA - I don't necessarily see that the ripple effect will be as large as some may think.
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Counterpoint
I wonder if you or your company has been involved in any pay talks or negotiations in recent times?
Because if it had and your CC was astute enough to the fact that BA is recruiting on their current T&Cs into mainline, you will find, provides considerable leverage during any "benchmarking" exercise on pay or conditions.
For example most legacy charter outfits have for many years benchmarked themselves to BA for that very reason. To try and keep their pilots. That doesn't mean we are paid the same but it does mean that we enjoy a lifestyle that for most is similar to that which they would aspire to when working for a huge flag carrier.
In short BA guys, however arrogant the precious few on here appear to be, deserve our support. Anyone with basic insight into the industry can see that yes we - as a working group will be forever afflicted with the O'leary curse of terminal cost cuts and attacks on our livelyhoods. At some point there has to be a stand.
In BA that Time is now... quite rightly because having come from a an underling post in airline management myself - trying to do what we all suspect BA is doing is EXACTLY what I would try and do if I was a senior - bonus driven - share optioned - Manager. Thankfully I'm merely a humble driver apparently I had too much personality to make the cut!
I add that I would question some of the arguments been suggested on here particularly about BA038. But overall BALPA needs to be strong with this one. It they back down now it will be the beginning of the end to many of the quality arrangements - sure for BA at first but all that negotiation leverage for the kids on the other side of the playground just disappeared!
So whilst in their articulation and execution they may be flawed. BA guys need our support and deserve it.
The view: "well I don't have that therefore he shouldn't" is quite frankly offensive and perhaps says more about ones character - casting doubts on the ability of one to be enjoying any of these hard fought benefits in any of the Higher Cost carriers in the future!
Because if it had and your CC was astute enough to the fact that BA is recruiting on their current T&Cs into mainline, you will find, provides considerable leverage during any "benchmarking" exercise on pay or conditions.
For example most legacy charter outfits have for many years benchmarked themselves to BA for that very reason. To try and keep their pilots. That doesn't mean we are paid the same but it does mean that we enjoy a lifestyle that for most is similar to that which they would aspire to when working for a huge flag carrier.
In short BA guys, however arrogant the precious few on here appear to be, deserve our support. Anyone with basic insight into the industry can see that yes we - as a working group will be forever afflicted with the O'leary curse of terminal cost cuts and attacks on our livelyhoods. At some point there has to be a stand.
In BA that Time is now... quite rightly because having come from a an underling post in airline management myself - trying to do what we all suspect BA is doing is EXACTLY what I would try and do if I was a senior - bonus driven - share optioned - Manager. Thankfully I'm merely a humble driver apparently I had too much personality to make the cut!
I add that I would question some of the arguments been suggested on here particularly about BA038. But overall BALPA needs to be strong with this one. It they back down now it will be the beginning of the end to many of the quality arrangements - sure for BA at first but all that negotiation leverage for the kids on the other side of the playground just disappeared!
So whilst in their articulation and execution they may be flawed. BA guys need our support and deserve it.
The view: "well I don't have that therefore he shouldn't" is quite frankly offensive and perhaps says more about ones character - casting doubts on the ability of one to be enjoying any of these hard fought benefits in any of the Higher Cost carriers in the future!
Make no bones, the outcome of this fight will have an effect on the Ts and Cs of every pilot in the UK and maybe Europe. A national carrier sets the standards for pay and conditions for all carriers in that country.
A fight worth fighting. Give the BA pilots your support.
A fight worth fighting. Give the BA pilots your support.
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I don't think that the outcome of this fight will have any impact on those airlines whose conditions are already appalling when compared to BA, or other flag carriers. In my airline, we wonder in envy at those T&Cs and associated perks, and there is no way my airline could or would ever match them, no matter what the outcome is. I suspect some people take the envy to an unhealthy extreme.
Certainly, if it is your desire to work for BA in the future, then you should care. If that isn't your bag, then I don't think it does matter. But perhaps I am missing something? Why this juncture, why not in the past with BA Connect, or GSS, or even GO - what's so different about this? The 100+ seat argument is lost on me, but I'm not very bright.
Certainly, if it is your desire to work for BA in the future, then you should care. If that isn't your bag, then I don't think it does matter. But perhaps I am missing something? Why this juncture, why not in the past with BA Connect, or GSS, or even GO - what's so different about this? The 100+ seat argument is lost on me, but I'm not very bright.
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I don't think that the outcome of this fight will have any impact on those airlines whose conditions are already appalling when compared to BA....
It's not rocket science.
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a very complex issue,best tackled after a hearty meals a copious pints.but my take is,that you and i have to support one another irrespective of where we work or out viewpoint.one may well think that not supporting one another is irrelevant in this day and age.the harsh truth is that pilots need to to be more united now than anytime since the creation of aviation.aviation is at a crossroads and failure to work for the common good falls right into the management trap.the catch 22 of this situation is that one may well have to work for the benefit of a person they dislike.but only by stepping above the individual profiteering,will their be a future for all.think outside the box,your manager does.
one may think that a simple act of selfishness is ok,in time it will spin around to bite you on the ass.the signs are all around us.no one is exempt.
one may think that a simple act of selfishness is ok,in time it will spin around to bite you on the ass.the signs are all around us.no one is exempt.
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I believe you're right, and I believe that BA pilots are right, at least from a the perspective of Pay and Conditions survival....however, anyone from GSS / Connect / BACX / Dan Air may be excused for wondering where the support was when they needed it too. Still, I'm quite quite sure that we're all sufficiently altruistic to "do as you would be done by" and gracefully forget the days when the bat was not even greased before being abruptly inserted.
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I can't spell altruistic - but I certainly remember the bat!
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire!
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire!
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Oh gosh, Kurtz, do tell us how you really feel...
In actual fact, the BA guys (and gals) I have met downroute many times have their beaks well above ground effect...just the nature of the beast, I suspect.
However, no matter what they think now, they will not achieve...the company has plans, you see, and it is not in the companies best interest to abandon OS, nor is it in the companies best interest to concede many points.
Look for a compromise, with the BALPA guys on the short end of the stick...just where they belong.
In actual fact, the BA guys (and gals) I have met downroute many times have their beaks well above ground effect...just the nature of the beast, I suspect.
However, no matter what they think now, they will not achieve...the company has plans, you see, and it is not in the companies best interest to abandon OS, nor is it in the companies best interest to concede many points.
Look for a compromise, with the BALPA guys on the short end of the stick...just where they belong.
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Quick question for TLP, and Kurtz, with both of whom I am well acquainted:
You are both rightly bitter about your piss poor handling in BACX/Connect at the hands of British Airways Plc
This had absolutely NOTHING to do with BA pilots!
But in any case you had your OWN Company Council did you not? A group of your OWN pilots elected BY YOU to represent YOUR interests!
Did you have a strike ballot over any issues??
If not, why not??
We don't wish to be pissed on like you were. We are prepared to take action to prevent it.
As I have said earlier in this thread. Sooner or later, people have to take responsibility for their own situations.
I'll support ANYONE who downs the tools. I just don't recall that being you.
Edited to add:
Almost forgot!
Beaut!
You are both rightly bitter about your piss poor handling in BACX/Connect at the hands of British Airways Plc
This had absolutely NOTHING to do with BA pilots!
But in any case you had your OWN Company Council did you not? A group of your OWN pilots elected BY YOU to represent YOUR interests!
Did you have a strike ballot over any issues??
If not, why not??
We don't wish to be pissed on like you were. We are prepared to take action to prevent it.
As I have said earlier in this thread. Sooner or later, people have to take responsibility for their own situations.
I'll support ANYONE who downs the tools. I just don't recall that being you.
Edited to add:
Almost forgot!
This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list.
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 24th Mar 2008 at 21:36.
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I can't spell altruistic - but I certainly remember the bat!
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire! - kurtz
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire! - kurtz
your comments betray a level of intellectual simplicity that airline managers the world over have wet dreams about. your bitterness can only be the result of failure or percieved betrayal. I have flown with many pilots who on having had the sh*ty end of the stick somewhere else ended up in BA. their determination to get the best deal for them and their families says a lot for their motivation and qualities . I can only guess on the tortured path you took to your present job but I am sure that your statement says more about the qualities you possess than any personality flaws in us spoon fed, fat cat, porsche driving nigels.
if i wasn't being paid more with a better pension, staff travel and holiday entitlements than you I might actually want you to cross the street! as it stands you don't worry about us and we will just get on with trying to look after ourselves which in turn should help everybody out.
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The three voices of BALPA.
There are three ways to misrepresent things:
Suggestio Falsi
Suppressio Veri
Listening to a BA pilot
Oops, nearly forgot the fourth, listening to management.
The game is not worth the candle; Dan Air have long memories, and so do we.
Suggestio Falsi
Suppressio Veri
Listening to a BA pilot
Oops, nearly forgot the fourth, listening to management.
The game is not worth the candle; Dan Air have long memories, and so do we.