Monarch T & C's
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Monarch Man you stated that :
When what I actually said was :
Interesting the bits you selectively choose to ignore ? The problem with simply raging against everyone and everything is that it completely weakens the core of the arguement. It makes you look unfocused and irrational. If I were required to negotiate with somebody who displayed these traits, the meeting would be terminated until such time as they cooled down and focused themselves on the points. Does any of this sound vaguely familiar to you ?
In fact ( condescension, arrogance and aloofness aside ) , I wrote :
and :
Something Monarch Man interprets as :
Unfortunetaly you give the impression of being an individual so fired up with your own sense of outrage and indignation whilst wrapping yourself up in the cloak of mob agreement, that you simply refuse to see, and certainly to understand what is being said.
I hope you have a great time at Virgin (you frequently allude to going to a new company with a charismatic owner ?) and wish you well for the future. However many of us will still be working here and seeking to make both the company a success and our own futures a success. There is nothing funda mentally wrong with "looking after number one". Then again nobody really needs to tell you that, do they Monarch Man ?
Bealzebub, it is interesting you make the observation
The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts.
seems to show you are resigned to living with the current state of affairs, or that those amongst the current crop of MON pilots who are on inferior contracts of employment should somehow just accept their fate.
The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts.
seems to show you are resigned to living with the current state of affairs, or that those amongst the current crop of MON pilots who are on inferior contracts of employment should somehow just accept their fate.
The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts. It doesn't matter how angrily you respond to my comments or how much you jump up and down moaning about anything, everything and everyone. The answer to your problem (if there is one) may very well be embedded in the very thing you are railing against. If that is the case you would need to be very focused and I am not seeing a great deal of that in some of these replies.
In fact ( condescension, arrogance and aloofness aside ) , I wrote :
It is not impossible to vary contracts or in some cases to have them judged invalid. New contracts can be substituted for old ones. It doesn't really matter what the contract is, employment, sale & purchase, marriage. There may be different rules and protocols but most are written to protect the seller. It is always wise to know what you are entering into, and fully understand the terms you are agreeing to. The problem is that later it may be very difficult to renegotiate, break or vary a contract that was written for the sellers benefit.
I would be delighted to see you get better remuneration and improved terms & conditions. I would be just as pleased to see the new terms and conditions substituted with the old ones. I would like to see the old pension plans reopened to everybody.
You also appear to contend that as a matter of contractual practice, employment contracts are non negotiable entities, or at the very least, protected beyond the realms of collective bargaining.
I hope you have a great time at Virgin (you frequently allude to going to a new company with a charismatic owner ?) and wish you well for the future. However many of us will still be working here and seeking to make both the company a success and our own futures a success. There is nothing funda mentally wrong with "looking after number one". Then again nobody really needs to tell you that, do they Monarch Man ?
Well Bealzebub, it would appear that you and I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint when it comes to summing an issue up.
First and foremost, we ARE NOT negotiating here, we are however exploring the relative merits of each others arguments.
Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it?
Your approach BTW also says an awful lot more about yourself and your personal history than needs to be discussed here.
As regards to the impression I give, that is entirely up to you, I can however assure you that my motivation is based on the history of backroom discussions, lack of candor, and a general lack of accountability from previous CC's
So Bealzebub I guess if the cap fits, we can both wear it, please however don't accuse me of making my arguments selective. I have only ever highlighted the points YOU have raised, and my interpretation of such points is focused squarely on the issues that affect us all.
Predictably B, my points won't sit well with your more clinical view of things, but then again so what? I am confident that my views are far more representative than yours are ever likely to be....but then again you knew that already.
As for my new employer, take 15-20 years off yourself Beazlebub, substitute said younger version of ones self into todays world and ask the question, what would you do?
When all is said and done this discussion boils down to a rather simple question, are MON T & C's competitive in todays job market?
Bealzebub, Q Top, and Mr Portside would appear to think so
A quick glance at the membership website would suggest otherwise, along with a chat with virtually all line pilots (old and new contracts) you would care to mention.
First and foremost, we ARE NOT negotiating here, we are however exploring the relative merits of each others arguments.
Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it?
Your approach BTW also says an awful lot more about yourself and your personal history than needs to be discussed here.
As regards to the impression I give, that is entirely up to you, I can however assure you that my motivation is based on the history of backroom discussions, lack of candor, and a general lack of accountability from previous CC's
So Bealzebub I guess if the cap fits, we can both wear it, please however don't accuse me of making my arguments selective. I have only ever highlighted the points YOU have raised, and my interpretation of such points is focused squarely on the issues that affect us all.
Predictably B, my points won't sit well with your more clinical view of things, but then again so what? I am confident that my views are far more representative than yours are ever likely to be....but then again you knew that already.
As for my new employer, take 15-20 years off yourself Beazlebub, substitute said younger version of ones self into todays world and ask the question, what would you do?
When all is said and done this discussion boils down to a rather simple question, are MON T & C's competitive in todays job market?
Bealzebub, Q Top, and Mr Portside would appear to think so
A quick glance at the membership website would suggest otherwise, along with a chat with virtually all line pilots (old and new contracts) you would care to mention.
Last edited by Monarch Man; 1st May 2007 at 15:08. Reason: The phone rang
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WOW i bet TJ and other top floor management are loving what this threads turned into.......
Some in-fighting and toy throwing amongst collegues.
They must be laughing with glee - with less than a month of negotiating the workforce, or maybe just a few bored individuals, have turned this into a them and us yawn fest... with toys flying without abandon.
Divide and conquer......
Then again reading the BALPA forums and the sentiment within, it seems the top floor should be concerned.
Some in-fighting and toy throwing amongst collegues.
They must be laughing with glee - with less than a month of negotiating the workforce, or maybe just a few bored individuals, have turned this into a them and us yawn fest... with toys flying without abandon.
Divide and conquer......
Then again reading the BALPA forums and the sentiment within, it seems the top floor should be concerned.
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MM,
I rather feel you are simply arguing for its own sake. A lot of what you say is completely contradictory and makes no sense. In so doing it only dilutes the merit of whatever your point happens to be. For example :
I don't think anybody ( whether they agree or not ) really views a lack of passion, conviction or ambition in my viewpoint since I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to put it across factually and without wild emotional swings. Why would I want to take anything away from my own position ? After all isn't it that very same position that you are now championing and seeking ? Why is it a paradox that I would be pleased to see better terms & conditions for people on the new contracts ? Such an achievement would be a good thing and would not adversely affect me at all. It does rather smack of hypocrisy to tell somebody who has spent over 2 decades contributing to the companies success, and who will continue to do so, that their view lacks any conviction or ambition, whilst you are preaching from your pedestal made of another airlines operating manuals !
Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it !
15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result. That group clearly includes you, and as I said good luck to you.
Whilst I am happy to answer any questions that are relevant, I cannot address these rhetorical diatribes that you keep falling back into, concerning "backroom discussions", "lack of candour" and "the accountability of previous CC's", as it has nothing to do with me and needs to be addressed to the parties concerned.
Bon voyage.
I rather feel you are simply arguing for its own sake. A lot of what you say is completely contradictory and makes no sense. In so doing it only dilutes the merit of whatever your point happens to be. For example :
Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it?
Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it !
15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result. That group clearly includes you, and as I said good luck to you.
Whilst I am happy to answer any questions that are relevant, I cannot address these rhetorical diatribes that you keep falling back into, concerning "backroom discussions", "lack of candour" and "the accountability of previous CC's", as it has nothing to do with me and needs to be addressed to the parties concerned.
Bon voyage.
Beazlebub, I have to hand it to you
, a rather impressive effort at showing yourself to be a contrite colleague friendly member of the team.
I can't help thinking comments such as
shows the actual reality of your thoughts.
BTW the way the rhetorical diatribes you allude too are mere statements of fact, they are in a sense cause and effect, after all, if all was peachy at the shop, why are the troops upset?
OOOOps, did you forget to answer the question? or was it just easier to waffle on a bit about nothing specific?
As I said, put yourself in my shoes for a moment.
On this point....
Very easy to say for a man in your position, as you have quite clearly stated previously, you are doing quite nicely.
I can't disagree, which is why I haven't done it. I have taken issue with the appearance of your singular lack of empathy for those people who wish to improve their presently poor T&C's though legitimate means. I have taken issue with your condescending attitude, and your self righteous indignation at being scrutinized when it comes to the present situation.
I cannot question your loyalty to MON, if as you say you have given 20 years of service, I can however question your motives because it is rather clear to me that you have little room in your professional heart for anyone other than yourself.
As for preaching from another companies Ops manuals, well I guess I'll consign that remark to the appropriate filing cabinet. Nice
, a rather impressive effort at showing yourself to be a contrite colleague friendly member of the team.I can't help thinking comments such as
If you accepted a contract with inferior terms & conditions as many have done in numerous long established airlines, I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say !
BTW the way the rhetorical diatribes you allude too are mere statements of fact, they are in a sense cause and effect, after all, if all was peachy at the shop, why are the troops upset?
15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result.
As I said, put yourself in my shoes for a moment.
On this point....
Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it !
It does rather smack of hypocrisy to tell somebody who has spent over 2 decades contributing to the companies success, and who will continue to do so, that their view lacks any conviction or ambition, whilst you are preaching from your pedestal made of another airlines operating manuals !
I cannot question your loyalty to MON, if as you say you have given 20 years of service, I can however question your motives because it is rather clear to me that you have little room in your professional heart for anyone other than yourself.
As for preaching from another companies Ops manuals, well I guess I'll consign that remark to the appropriate filing cabinet. Nice
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We may well be going to have to strike. Bealzebub will work through the strike. No doubt he's about 55 and has his hands on his FS pension. He doesn't give a damn about anyone else. He'll work through the strike. We can do without that selfish minority, but will he sleep at night? Do we care?
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Bealezebub I would imagine it is a no brainer to give 'twenty years of service' to Monarch when they had the best pension in the industry and the second best salary when you joined.
Would you still be there if they had offered you an 8% for 8% DC pension when you joined?
I don't think most of us actually WANT to leave, but Monarch have fallen so far behind particularly in terms of remuneration and pensions that to stay for a career would be dooming ourselves to poverty in our retirement and thats saying nothing of the £1000 a month less in the mean time that you can make almost anywhere else for a similar job.
I think these guys are showing loyalty by sticking around to see if things will improve, where any accountant would be telling them they are mad.
Would you still be there if they had offered you an 8% for 8% DC pension when you joined?
I don't think most of us actually WANT to leave, but Monarch have fallen so far behind particularly in terms of remuneration and pensions that to stay for a career would be dooming ourselves to poverty in our retirement and thats saying nothing of the £1000 a month less in the mean time that you can make almost anywhere else for a similar job.
I think these guys are showing loyalty by sticking around to see if things will improve, where any accountant would be telling them they are mad.
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Funny,
I'm one of those rich gits.
But when contemplating the world at 30 west in a Monarch Aeroplane, I wonder why my allowances are not the same as the Virgin trotting past or indeed the 1st Choice I'm overtaking who gets share options. (well he did)
Whatever our yearly allowances add up too, proberbly more than £2000 but a heck of a lot less than Virgin or 1st Choice. and don't get me on to T'fly's Easy's Bmi's sector pay.
Take home pay is what most familys need and Monarch's is no where near the going rate for this day & age.
Whatever the arguments, that is ALL the pilots are asking for is the GOING RATE.
As for the DB scheme, nice golden hand cuffs but it doesn't pay the b'ldy school fees.
I'm one of those rich gits.
But when contemplating the world at 30 west in a Monarch Aeroplane, I wonder why my allowances are not the same as the Virgin trotting past or indeed the 1st Choice I'm overtaking who gets share options. (well he did)
Whatever our yearly allowances add up too, proberbly more than £2000 but a heck of a lot less than Virgin or 1st Choice. and don't get me on to T'fly's Easy's Bmi's sector pay.
Take home pay is what most familys need and Monarch's is no where near the going rate for this day & age.
Whatever the arguments, that is ALL the pilots are asking for is the GOING RATE.
As for the DB scheme, nice golden hand cuffs but it doesn't pay the b'ldy school fees.
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Shouldn't all this be on the Monarch Forum, or better still the BALPA Forum? BB's apparent satisfaction with his current T&Cs could be hidden from the management then.
Incidentally, BB, if we had to strike (I hope not, BTW) what would you do?
Would you:
a) Join BALPA (if not already a member) and strike,
b) Throw a sickie!
c) Come in to work and (happily or not) cross a picket line,
d) Have some other, more fiendish, plan up your sleeve?
Like you, I've been here a long time now, and I'm doing OK out of Monarch, but I know it is not the generally happy outfit it once was, and other, formerly lesser, companies seem to offer much better packages to new joiners and old hands alike. Monarch's T&Cs could, and should, be better for everyone.
Incidentally, BB, if we had to strike (I hope not, BTW) what would you do?
Would you:
a) Join BALPA (if not already a member) and strike,
b) Throw a sickie!
c) Come in to work and (happily or not) cross a picket line,
d) Have some other, more fiendish, plan up your sleeve?
Like you, I've been here a long time now, and I'm doing OK out of Monarch, but I know it is not the generally happy outfit it once was, and other, formerly lesser, companies seem to offer much better packages to new joiners and old hands alike. Monarch's T&Cs could, and should, be better for everyone.
Last edited by squeaker; 7th May 2007 at 07:40. Reason: spolling
With his pay offer the MD seems to have seriously misjudged his pilot workforce.Some may even see his offer as insulting.He has not tried to buy the good will of his training pilots,and he if only offering less than inflation to the rest but at a cost of changes to the rostering scheme.
I am sure that he has been ill informed of the mood of his pilots by his operations director,himself a former cc chairman.
Monarch were a happy company once,but not any more.It is not even as though we have numerous cash hungry shareholders or pension funds to placate with our balance sheet.Perhaps the aroma of performance related bonuses is over powering compared to the shrill call of common sense that should be wafting around the top floor of Prospect House.
To paraphrase a 90's pop star-ITS BALLOT TIME!!
I am sure that he has been ill informed of the mood of his pilots by his operations director,himself a former cc chairman.
Monarch were a happy company once,but not any more.It is not even as though we have numerous cash hungry shareholders or pension funds to placate with our balance sheet.Perhaps the aroma of performance related bonuses is over powering compared to the shrill call of common sense that should be wafting around the top floor of Prospect House.
To paraphrase a 90's pop star-ITS BALLOT TIME!!
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What sort of "management" deliberately antagonises it's staff by presenting an offer to reduce salary and remove benefits? How
arrogant!
They clearly want a fight so I suggest we give them what they want.
arrogant!They clearly want a fight so I suggest we give them what they want.
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So this years pay offer is a pay cut of 0.7% and a decrease in terms and conditions ???
Obviously the MD dosn't want a training department.
Tell me this is a joke.............
When are we parking up the aircraft again ?
Obviously the MD dosn't want a training department.
Tell me this is a joke.............
When are we parking up the aircraft again ?
Last edited by nilcostoptionmyass; 9th May 2007 at 22:07.
I thought the tone of the offer was pure confrontation. Even the reasonable, easy going, never complaining types are baying for their ballot papers now. I think RS/TJ have seriously misjudged this situation.
Last edited by ZeBedie; 10th May 2007 at 10:48.
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The Offer:
1) A pay CUT
2) More night flying
3) Less time off on your Days Off
Sweet Deal, CV goin out, Adios MON.
To Wannabes - I'm guessin theres gonna be many leaving shortly, so get your CV's in and stay for a year then bugger off to a company that respects you.
Monarch = Training Airline/Hour Builder
"Monarch, Expect More, Pays (even) Less"
1) A pay CUT
2) More night flying
3) Less time off on your Days Off
Sweet Deal, CV goin out, Adios MON.
To Wannabes - I'm guessin theres gonna be many leaving shortly, so get your CV's in and stay for a year then bugger off to a company that respects you.
Monarch = Training Airline/Hour Builder
"Monarch, Expect More, Pays (even) Less"
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What a bloody joke eh!! So this is how our management view us? The offer is a complete insult to all us - Trainers and new joiners alike. To anyone interested in Monarch I would say look elsewhere - this really isn't the place it use to be...
Bealzebub - you still happy??
Bealzebub - you still happy??
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I am one of the guys that started at MON in early 05 but have since legged it. I'm just interested to know exactly what the pay offer was. Can anyone please enlighten me?
I'm finding it so hard to understand why the management are hell bent on destroying what was once a quality airline. At the end of the day, all that is required is to pay the "going rate". As has been said before, they are obviously trying to align payscales with Turbo operators!!
I'm finding it so hard to understand why the management are hell bent on destroying what was once a quality airline. At the end of the day, all that is required is to pay the "going rate". As has been said before, they are obviously trying to align payscales with Turbo operators!!