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Monarch T & C's

Old 29th Apr 2007, 16:37
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Bealzebub - what in Gods name are you smoking??
If the average annual allowances (2000 ?) are indicitive of an average working week of only 16 hours, then the answer would have to be that I am obviously smoking the tyres ! Please tell me which fleet offers this 16 hour working week because I really do want to know ?

"12 flights a month averaging 28 split equally between Canaries and Spain." So that's 50% 8 hours and 50% 5 to be pessimistic. Average 6.5 hours X 12 X 12 equals 936 hours. Oops
I think you have seriously misunderstood. The 28 was the average. How many 5 hour duties do you do a month ? Positioning between LGW & MAN and airlining back takes longer than that ! If your average daily duty period is 6.5 hours and the shortest realistic Spanish schedule is 8 hours for duty pay purposes, where are you going to ? Remember you get paid for the pre flight duty period, the turnaround and 30 minutes post flight period. Not to mention any pre flight or post flight positioning. If the duty period takes you 1 minute into the next hour you get another full hours allowance. If you still maintain that your annual allowances only amount to 2000 then I am wondering why you are being worked so lightly ? 16 total duty hours a week is below a part timers hours and would be surpassed if your total working week (47 weeks a year) only ever amounted to a LGW return Alicante and a LGW return Malaga a week ! but then as you say.."Oops!"

Bealzebub, you are "them upstairs", clearly.
No I am not ! Is there a correlation between anyone who questions what they perceive to be total nonsense and their assumed position in the company hierarchy ? If there is, then it suggests a certain naivety, but perhaps serves to illustrate the status quo ?
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Old 29th Apr 2007, 17:32
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If there is, then it suggests a certain naivety, but perhaps serves to illustrate the status quo ?
Actually No, what it serves to illustrate is that comments can be misconstrued, it also shows Bealzebub that you appear not to be concerned about the situation facing the status quo.
So here are several questions for you.

1. Can you honestly look at the current T & C's and answer that they represent a competitive package in relation to the present market place?

2. What represents a "sensible" settlement in your view?

3. Are you able to dispel/explain the overwhelming levels of support being offered to the present CC in relation to the current pay claim? and FWIW the anecdotal evidence suggests current balpa membership is close to 90% of the pilot workforce.

4. Finally, how have Prospect house, and previous CC's allowed this to happen? perhaps the close nature of the relationship between the previous CC Chairman and the current Ops director? or perhaps the ineffective or secretive approach to negotiations in private meetings etc that led to allegations of dishonesty, and a total lack of confidence in the process shown by members?
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Old 29th Apr 2007, 18:46
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Actually No, what it serves to illustrate is that comments can be misconstrued, it also shows Bealzebub that you appear not to be concerned about the situation facing the status quo.
Unless you are referring to the band "Status Quo", the term is defined as "the existing state of affairs" not a person or group of people, so I do not understand what you mean by the
situation facing the Status Quo
in either context, much less why I should be concerned about it ?

I joined in this thread to question the assertion that the level of annual allowances averaged only 2000 a year, and that staff travel was "a joke". My reply was based on the factual and documented evidence ( in the case of the former) going back many, many years. This is a public forum and if we are projecting a picture to the wider world, then it should at least be balanced and in my contention, accurate. That reply was challenged as inaccurate and exagerrated. I offered the protaganists details by private message if they wanted ( as I consider them confidential within the wider arena), they didn't reply. I can prove average allowances going back over many years but that is detail none of them want ?

If there is a point to be argued fine, but to then dovetail it into something else because you don't like the answer is disingenous, and as I previously stated naive and probably indicitive of wider issues ?

On to your point. I will attempt to honestly answer your questions :

1. Can you honestly look at the current T & C's and answer that they represent a competitive package in relation to the present market place?
Who's terms & conditions ? Mine, yours, new joiners over the last 2 years who get an entirely different set. I think mine are competitive when I consider what is available to me in other UK companies and in those companies that are recruiting overseas. If I thought I could do a lot better for myself and my family somewhere else, I would have done. Other people have chosen to do just that. Some of those people are pleased with their decision, some are not.

2. What represents a "sensible" settlement in your view?
Here is a loaded question if ever there was one, but go on I will bite. Last year I made a comfortable standard of living. This year if inflation is applied to the same figure, then the same will hold true. Inflation is a very personal thing and varies from one person to the next. However government figures are usually utilized to provide at least the governments picture and thereby one version of a mean ( two definitions) figure. Would I trade present benefits or contractual arrangements for more money ? Maybe. Would I like more renumeration in excess of inflation ? Yes.

3. Are you able to dispel/explain the overwhelming levels of support being offered to the present CC in relation to the current pay claim? and FWIW the anecdotal evidence suggests current balpa membership is close to 90% of the pilot workforce.
I cannot dispel or explain the support being offered to the present CC in relation to the current pay claim. I would suggest that since we have a two tier pay and benefits structure that was introduced a couple of years ago, those that accepted the lesser contracts would by now have become dissatisfied with those agreements. I do not know what the anecdotal evidence suggests with regards to BALPA membership. If it helps at all you can ask them for the actual membership number, then divide 100 by the number of pilots in the company and multiply that figure by the number of members. You will then have an accurate percentage and will no longer have to rely on anecdotes.

4. Finally, how have Prospect house, and previous CC's allowed this to happen? perhaps the close nature of the relationship between the previous CC Chairman and the current Ops director? or perhaps the ineffective or secretive approach to negotiations in private meetings etc that led to allegations of dishonesty, and a total lack of confidence in the process shown by members?
I am sorry, I am not sure if this a question for me or simply rhetoric ? Perhaps you should ask them ? If by "this" you mean the revised terms & conditions for new joiners over the last couple of years, then you might also consider that the company now employs many more "very low experience" pilots than it historically did. It feels it needs to compete with other "low cost" carriers who do the same. Obviously this has a significant advantage for low experienced pilots looking for that first job, but is not such good news for experienced pilots and ex-air force pilots who now have to compete in this brave new world. It now seems that many of these new carriers expect their new First Officers / Second Officers to pay for their own type ratings and in some cases their own line training. Why is this allowed to happen ? Why is there no longer a requirement for more experienced First officers ? Call me cynical but I expect it is because there is a serious shortage of experienced pilots to fill these seats. Shortage of supply in a market raises the price and value of the commodity. In other words up goes wages. How about simply doing without these right seat pilots at all ? Good idea, but the manufacturers and the regulators simply refuse to allow it. Second best idea is to find a cheaper source namely those with levels of experience that would not have been normally employed in previous years. Plenty of supply here. Not only that, but they will self subsidize their own employment. Of course once the novelty wears off and reality sets in and those same pilots do become more "experienced" they begin to resent the contracts they themselves signed. The ex air force pilots and the experienced job changers who also had to accept the new contracts to remain in contention, also (naturally) resent the situation. Maybe that explains the status quo. If that same source of new pilots looking to get a foothold has dried up overnight ( and lets be honest it hasn't) then employers will be forced to pay higher real term wages.

However my own viewpoint is not only is that not the case, but the situation will year by year pervade further up both of the seniority lists until in a a few years time the transformation is complete. Some of us did recognise and point this out at the time but it was a situation that we were individually likely to stay one step ahead of.

So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at, but it is my honest opinion, and that is what you asked for.
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Old 29th Apr 2007, 19:48
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Thanks Bealzebub, my apologies for the loaded question, and to your credit you didn't bite.

Then again, comments such as
So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at, but it is my honest opinion, and that is what you asked for
Bely the sentiment behind your opinion, fair enough I guess, its also probably the reason I am off to pastures new.

Then again, why should you "be all right Jack?", there are plenty of guys with double digit seniority that feel differently to you and have seen their own personal situation deteriorate in real terms. It is also true to say that the guys before even you Bealzebub worked hard to make sure the place was a competitive environment, but is that not worth injecting that into the debate..which BTW includes staff travel concessions.

In any case, you have your view, the majority have theirs.
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Old 29th Apr 2007, 20:01
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at
Sorry, that still sounds like pure management speak to me.
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Old 29th Apr 2007, 22:47
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Then again, why should you "be all right Jack?", there are plenty of guys with double digit seniority that feel differently to you and have seen their own personal situation deteriorate in real terms. It is also true to say that the guys before even you Bealzebub worked hard to make sure the place was a competitive environment, but is that not worth injecting that into the debate..which BTW includes staff travel concessions.
Because I joined at a different period in history, when you couldn't join with such low general levels of experience. Not just here but anywhere. That was the case for nearly all pilots. At the time the larger airlines were able to satisfy their recruitment from the airforce and from the general market experience ladder (a few rungs higher up). If I were seeking the same employment today it would be a different story. What you term the "allright jack" concept is not much different from the people who now own mansions because they entered the property market 30 years ago. If you accepted a contract with inferior terms & conditions as many have done in numerous long established airlines, I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say !

That there are pilots with double digit seniority who feel differently to me is not in contention. I do not recall suggesting there wasn't ? That others worked hard for a competitive environment including staff travel is again undisputed. However again the point is being ignored in order to dovetail into other aspects.

In any case, you have your view, the majority have theirs.
So there is me with my views and the majority with theirs ?
I accept my views might be a minority within a specific group, or even within the interested population generally but that doesn't change the factual points, the history or the counterpoint. Are this majority not also made up of individuals with their own views ideas and opinions ? I suspect they are.

Sorry, that still sounds like pure management speak to me.
Honestly ZeBedie it isn't and I am not, but if it helps believe what you like.

Then again, comments such as

Quote:
So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at, but it is my honest opinion, and that is what you asked for

Bely the sentiment behind your opinion, fair enough I guess, its also probably the reason I am off to pastures new.
If my comments have caused you to leave the company since 8 pm this evening then I am truly shocked and would be happy to delete them if it makes you reconsider such a drastic course of action ?
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Old 29th Apr 2007, 23:45
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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That there are pilots with double digit seniority who feel differently to me is not in contention. I do not recall suggesting there wasn't ? That others worked hard for a competitive environment including staff travel is again undisputed. However again the point is being ignored in order to dovetail into other aspects.
And rightly so! this is all part of the bigger picture is it not? or are you happy to compartmentalize those who don't fit your "different period in history" casting them aside in your own self interest?

What you term the "allright jack" concept is not much different from the people who now own mansions because they entered the property market 30 years ago
Really? I thought we were talking about MON T&C's, not property speculation.

I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say !
The reality as you put it, is that the market has moved on, and MON has been able through poor BALPA representation, along with some not too subtle zero cost options, has been able to mitigate against any substantial and competitive T&C improvements, moreover the new joiner package has been watered down by the split level of remuneration, and the attitudes of individuals such as yourself Bealzebub.
The reality is Bealzebub that you are in a minority, you know it, and I know it.

So there is me with my views and the majority with theirs ?
I accept my views might be a minority within a specific group, or even within the interested population generally but that doesn't change the factual points, the history or the counterpoint. Are this majority not also made up of individuals with their own views ideas and opinions ? I suspect they are.
You said it
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Old 30th Apr 2007, 13:59
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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B-Bub, points taken well argued, I think you missed your calling as a lawyer.
But your attitude of 'you signed it you live with it' is not helping our cause. We were effectively blackmailed into signing the 01/11/04 contracts (see my early post for full story) and the market at the time dictated that sensibly we had to because there was simply very few jobs on offer elsewhere.
I hesitate to bitch and moan about my current contract because I did sign it. But I would however like to see a significant improvement in it before the vast majority of my compatriots hit 2500 hrs and head for better paid jobs.
It would be a shame because believe it or not I do feel a loyalty to the company that gave me my break and I wouldn't want to see it come to that. There is going to be a lot more work for those left behind.
I would have thought that its also in your interest that experienced F/Os choose to stay in the company because if Mon turn into the training airline that its heading for then like it or not every line Captain will effectively be a trainer.
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Old 30th Apr 2007, 19:59
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Either way you look at it lads, the facts are the facts.
If you want to make more money (25%+) in your wallet every month leave Monarch.
If you want more money for your pension (see above), leave Monarch.
If you want very stable roster stabilty and choice , leave Monarch.
If you want better staff travel benefits leave Monarch.
Great company and great people but the new contract is the near the bottom of the UK for T's and C's. The music is playing so if yer gonna jump do it before it stops!
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Old 1st May 2007, 00:30
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Bealzebub

You've made it clear, in this thread and others, that you hold all of your colleagues that had to join under the new contact in utter distain, who deserve everything that they (don't) get in terms of remuneration, but is the quote from you below really your attitude towards First Officers? If so I invite you to put your name to it.

"How about simply doing without these right seat pilots at all ? Good idea, but the manufacturers and the regulators simply refuse to allow it."
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Old 1st May 2007, 01:30
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Irony isn't lost on you is it !

If you go back and read it again perhaps you will see what I meant within the context of the whole paragraph. If you still have trouble PM me and I will explain.

You've made it clear, in this thread and others, that you hold all of your colleagues that had to join under the new contact in utter distain, who deserve everything that they (don't) get in terms of remuneration
Well since I do not, and I think the word you are looking for is "disdain", you are distorting reality to suit your own indignation. I would be delighted to see you get better remuneration and improved terms & conditions. I would be just as pleased to see the new terms and conditions substituted with the old ones. I would like to see the old pension plans reopened to everybody. I was commenting on this "brave new world" and how it came about. How once the old contractees (such as myself) have been pensioned off, then the transformation will be complete. Most other people who responded may have disagreed in part or whole, but I think they understood the gist.

It is not impossible to vary contracts or in some cases to have them judged invalid. New contracts can be substituted for old ones. It doesn't really matter what the contract is, employment, sale & purchase, marriage. There may be different rules and protocols but most are written to protect the seller. It is always wise to know what you are entering into, and fully understand the terms you are agreeing to. The problem is that later it may be very difficult to renegotiate, break or vary a contract that was written for the sellers benefit.

The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts. It doesn't matter how angrily you respond to my comments or how much you jump up and down moaning about anything, everything and everyone. The answer to your problem (if there is one) may very well be embedded in the very thing you are railing against. If that is the case you would need to be very focused and I am not seeing a great deal of that in some of these replies.
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:11
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Quit moaning and get your CV's out before it's too late!!
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:39
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Twas done months ago Mr 10 Dollar.

Bealzebub, it is interesting you make the observation
The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts.
seems to show you are resigned to living with the current state of affairs, or that those amongst the current crop of MON pilots who are on inferior contracts of employment should somehow just accept their fate.

On a the point 321 made, I would disagree slightly, I don't believe you hold your new contract colleagues with disdain, but rather you hold them with a rather aloof sense of inferiority to yourself. You also appear to contend that as a matter of contractual practice, employment contracts are non negotiable entities, or at the very least, protected beyond the realms of collective bargaining. Perhaps Bealzebub, that may exist in your own version of reality, or in your own personal interpretation of the present situation, it does not reflect the view point nor the reality of the MON BALPA membership
But you knew that already didn't you
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Old 1st May 2007, 11:22
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Monarchman,
If you have left Monarch, I suggest you keep quite and stop winding people up with your reterich. You have no say on my future, You have no vote!!

I will vote when the time comes on my future with Monarch when I know all the facts. At this moment I am quite happy.

Beazlebub,
Thanks for keeping this thread focused. A sensible head.

Portside
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:19
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Thanks portside for your kind words, but I haven't left yet
I still have a vote
I'm happy to have a say in your future

I will vote when the time comes on my future with Monarch when I know all the facts. At this moment I am quite happy.
And its nice to see Bealzebub has a friend even if its a new joiner with just over a months PPRuNe membership

Last edited by Monarch Man; 1st May 2007 at 12:31.
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:20
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Bealzebub

Thank you for correcting my understanding (and spelling) in your usual long winded, superior and condescending manner. I've no idea how I could have missed the irony and interpreted your comments to portray you as arrogant and self righteous.
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Old 1st May 2007, 13:16
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Thanks for showing your true colours MM. I hope your new colleagues at the Orange place also take note of your comradeship, and values!

Portside.
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Old 1st May 2007, 13:24
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You are more than welcome Mr Portside, I AM CERTAIN the majority of my collegues will value my input.
BTW who said I was off to Orange land? its news to me
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Old 1st May 2007, 14:01
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"Sorry Tubby, I wont share that in a public forum until I'm out of my 6 month probationary period in case I make a muppet of myself, or more than usual that is! I can say however that neither Easy or Birdseed have the priviledge of my services, but it is a UK carrier with a rather colourful and charasmatic gentleman at its head "

Apologies MM, for getting the wrong airline.
One of your previous posts above.

Seems to me then, your not actually on the pay role yet, let alone a probationary period. I`m sure the charasmatic gentleman and his staff have made a wise choice???

Miss Piggy!

Sincerely though, Safe flights wherever you are going, and all the very best.
Portside
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Old 1st May 2007, 14:16
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The "if you don't like it stop moaning and [email protected]> off somewhere else" attitude is not always a real option. Like many of my colleagues I have invested a considerable number of years with Monarch and can neither afford nor wish to start at the bottom of another seniority list in the right seat, or up root my family to another place. The alternative option is to strive for better terms through robust union negotiation and membership. Comments like that are quite frankly ill founded, pathetic, and clearly intended to antagonise rather than add to the debate. We all know how the system works so why waste your time posting rubbish.
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