Monarch T & C's
Join Date: Apr 2007
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185 Lbs
You have an opinion, it's very noble and you're perfectly entitled to it. Could I ask you to consider that perhaps we all felt like that once? No one joins a company to engage in conflict with it. I'm sure we'd all be happier working for a progressive management, who genuinely engaged with their workforce to reach mutually beneficial solutions. Unfortunately we don't.
You feel that the company are honouring your contract, you're possibly not aware that there has been a very recent and underhanded attempt to fundamentally change your contract to include airport standby's. They appeared on the roster despite there being no provision in or contract for them and no discussion about the duration, frequency, facilities, allowances, or anything else. I for one don't want to spend the whole winter twiddling my thumbs in the crew room being paid no allowances and not being able to go to the terminal on my mobile. Do you consider this to be "decent personal conduct"? Without a robust response from BALPA you would be doing these soon.
Your stance on Industrial Action is not a valid excuse to sit back and let others spend time, effort and money to improve YOUR T&C's. Striking is the very last resort after an incredibly long process, which is regulated by law, and offers the company every opportunity to reach a negotiated settlement. The union is a DEMOCRACY and there will be no Industrial Action with out a majority vote by US, the everyday pilot workforce. The only way to have a vote is to join and then at least you can vote against a strike if it comes to it.
Presumably your strong moral stance, which I have already applauded, does not stretch to returning your pay and pension rise (which we have paid on your behalf to obtain) to the billionaire Monarch shareholders or the probable millionaire Monarch directors, because you don't approve of how it was obtained?
Whilst it’s obvious that I disagree with you, I hope you accept that this is no way intended to be a flaming, and I hope you feel able to reply to some of my points so that meaningful discussion can develop between members and non-members. We might all learn something.
You have an opinion, it's very noble and you're perfectly entitled to it. Could I ask you to consider that perhaps we all felt like that once? No one joins a company to engage in conflict with it. I'm sure we'd all be happier working for a progressive management, who genuinely engaged with their workforce to reach mutually beneficial solutions. Unfortunately we don't.
You feel that the company are honouring your contract, you're possibly not aware that there has been a very recent and underhanded attempt to fundamentally change your contract to include airport standby's. They appeared on the roster despite there being no provision in or contract for them and no discussion about the duration, frequency, facilities, allowances, or anything else. I for one don't want to spend the whole winter twiddling my thumbs in the crew room being paid no allowances and not being able to go to the terminal on my mobile. Do you consider this to be "decent personal conduct"? Without a robust response from BALPA you would be doing these soon.
Your stance on Industrial Action is not a valid excuse to sit back and let others spend time, effort and money to improve YOUR T&C's. Striking is the very last resort after an incredibly long process, which is regulated by law, and offers the company every opportunity to reach a negotiated settlement. The union is a DEMOCRACY and there will be no Industrial Action with out a majority vote by US, the everyday pilot workforce. The only way to have a vote is to join and then at least you can vote against a strike if it comes to it.
Presumably your strong moral stance, which I have already applauded, does not stretch to returning your pay and pension rise (which we have paid on your behalf to obtain) to the billionaire Monarch shareholders or the probable millionaire Monarch directors, because you don't approve of how it was obtained?
Whilst it’s obvious that I disagree with you, I hope you accept that this is no way intended to be a flaming, and I hope you feel able to reply to some of my points so that meaningful discussion can develop between members and non-members. We might all learn something.
185lbs, I used to feel the same way, but time changed my attitude. I expect it will change your attitude too. And where do you think your terms and conditions would be without BALPA? Every pilot in this airline has a debt of gratitude to BALPA and its members. Where do you expect your terms and conditions to go if everyone takes the same attitude as you? If you work during a strike, you will be rewarded with ever-degrading terms of employment. Or you could leave. Or you could see what a future on McDonalds pay offers for you. But if you leave, will you not face similar choices to the one you're looking at now? Remember, the airlines shackle us with the seniority system, so we can't benefit from the normal economic forces of the labour market, like people in other professions. Most of us are stuck here!
SNAM,
The most I've had in allowances is around half that quoted in a good year. Maybe longhaul gets more, but don't count on that from the outset.
Pension - they will match your contribs up to 8% - not exactly that good compared to what others offer.
Staff travel -no one sees it as a benefit frankly, often BA is cheaper than a staff discounted ticket....
Agree with the rest.
Splat
The most I've had in allowances is around half that quoted in a good year. Maybe longhaul gets more, but don't count on that from the outset.
Pension - they will match your contribs up to 8% - not exactly that good compared to what others offer.
Staff travel -no one sees it as a benefit frankly, often BA is cheaper than a staff discounted ticket....
Agree with the rest.
Splat
Join Date: Aug 1999
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£4000 per annum. As splat says this is not realistic for new starts and even guys who've been here years unless they are getting long haul. Over the course of the year then I would agree that half that figure would be more realistic (before tax).
As fo staff Travel. Please don't make me laugh!
As fo staff Travel. Please don't make me laugh!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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SNAM, Monarchs starting salary is £42305 for experienced pilots.
But it is flagging behind other operators. And soon to be on the backend of the drag curve!!
First choice - £47408 as from 22/12/06
Virgin - £45740 16/02/07
Thompsonfly - £45600 24/03/07
Globespan - £45580 01/04/07 B767 drivers
ThomasCook - £43556 07/01/07
BMI mainline - £43421 07/01/07
Mytravel - £42980 17/08/05
But it is flagging behind other operators. And soon to be on the backend of the drag curve!!
First choice - £47408 as from 22/12/06
Virgin - £45740 16/02/07
Thompsonfly - £45600 24/03/07
Globespan - £45580 01/04/07 B767 drivers
ThomasCook - £43556 07/01/07
BMI mainline - £43421 07/01/07
Mytravel - £42980 17/08/05
Join Date: Nov 1999
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£4000 per annum. As splat says this is not realistic for new starts and even guys who've been here years unless they are getting long haul. Over the course of the year then I would agree that half that figure would be more realistic (before tax).
As fo staff Travel. Please don't make me laugh!
As fo staff Travel. Please don't make me laugh!
My average flying hours for the last 10 years ( as far as this log book reaches) have been 610 hours ( lowest 570 highest 640 ) that equates to about 1600 hours duty ( flight duties / positioning / simulator). Although in my case it isn't, if that were all short haul with no night stops it would equate to £ 4200 PA ( which is what they advertise) ? In reality it is likely to be higher.
As for staff travel, well it depends on many things, not least the fact that the benefits improve the longer you work for the company. Last year I had two holidays for 7 people that were all firm and came to a total cost of £530. All the flights were free and the cost was for 21 room nights ! The retail value of this travel was £6150. If that is a joke, I was certainly laughing.
Staff travel -no one sees it as a benefit frankly, often BA is cheaper than a staff discounted ticket....
Bealzebub
I agree, duty hours may well be around 1600+, but if you fly say 600 hours a year, add a third to that, call it 780, thats all you'll get paid for at day rates, works out around 2k in my books. Add another £50 for the sim, I still can't get to the advertised 4k.
Splat
I agree, duty hours may well be around 1600+, but if you fly say 600 hours a year, add a third to that, call it 780, thats all you'll get paid for at day rates, works out around 2k in my books. Add another £50 for the sim, I still can't get to the advertised 4k.
Splat
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Average allowances for a UK Malaga and back are about £24. For a UK canaries and back it is about £32. If you use a mean figure of £28 for an average day trip you would be averaging about 12 flights a month to achieve a figure of £4000. Of course this doesn't take into account all those dreadful taxi/coach journeys that accompany some of the duties but still add to the allowance total. Simulator details are paid at a voyage rate usually about £100 a time ( £200 a year), and of course night stops which vary significantly from fleet to fleet and attract a 20% higher rate.
I have never had less than £4000 in any year I have worked for Monarch and in all of those years significantly more. I am speaking from the viewpoint of a predominatly shorthaul 757 pilot. Once you get on the long haul fleets these figures will double and may even treble. My total allowances for 2007 have already exceeded the advertised figure and it is still only April. Obviously that is significantly higher than the average, or even my long term average, however a figure of £2000 pa or thereabouts is not really presenting an accurate picture.
A new pilot joining on the A320 or 757 at Manchester or Gatwick can expect a busy year. In the case of the 320 at Manchester a very busy year.
I have never had less than £4000 in any year I have worked for Monarch and in all of those years significantly more. I am speaking from the viewpoint of a predominatly shorthaul 757 pilot. Once you get on the long haul fleets these figures will double and may even treble. My total allowances for 2007 have already exceeded the advertised figure and it is still only April. Obviously that is significantly higher than the average, or even my long term average, however a figure of £2000 pa or thereabouts is not really presenting an accurate picture.
A new pilot joining on the A320 or 757 at Manchester or Gatwick can expect a busy year. In the case of the 320 at Manchester a very busy year.
Any courses or simulator at base you get nothing for!Not even a cup of tea!Sometimes if the training has been poorly scheduled,you could end up going in to work on three different days to do crm,sep and tech.
Captains flying in the right-hand seat get nothing for doing so.Day-off payments are not over generous once the tax and Nat Insurance has been paid on them.If the company has had a good year you get a £25 voucher at Christmas.Medicals and license renewals are paid for but you may have to wait 4 weeks to get your money back from the company.
Quiet fleets (A300) don't make much in allowances and there is virtually no possibility of swapping fleets or base until you get offered a command.
Captains flying in the right-hand seat get nothing for doing so.Day-off payments are not over generous once the tax and Nat Insurance has been paid on them.If the company has had a good year you get a £25 voucher at Christmas.Medicals and license renewals are paid for but you may have to wait 4 weeks to get your money back from the company.
Quiet fleets (A300) don't make much in allowances and there is virtually no possibility of swapping fleets or base until you get offered a command.
Don't forget your metal lugage tag! The Orange brigade got two weeks salary in shares by way of a reward for a hard summers work.
I've never had voyage for sims, seem to average around 6 flights a month through the winter (Oct - Apr), historicaly had very little voyage if any. Last year only had a few days worth.
To be fair to Bealzebub, I think this converstion highlights the large differences within the company re salary and conditions depending on your base/fleet etc.
I've never had voyage for sims, seem to average around 6 flights a month through the winter (Oct - Apr), historicaly had very little voyage if any. Last year only had a few days worth.
To be fair to Bealzebub, I think this converstion highlights the large differences within the company re salary and conditions depending on your base/fleet etc.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I think £4000 is realistic, but that's not the point. Easy, Virgin, BA, Thomsonfly and others are all paid considerably more than this in terms of sector pay/hourly rate. This, coupled with certain tax advantages aasociated with productivity pay, leads to significant differences between take home pay.
Bealzebub, how do you get two free flights a year?
Bealzebub, how do you get two free flights a year?
Join Date: Nov 2002
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"I have never had less than £4000 in any year I have worked for Monarch and in all of those years significantly more. ... Once you get on the long haul fleets these figures will double and may even treble"
Bealzebub - what in Gods name are you smoking??
As Splat rightly points out, Bealzebub has perhaps stumbled on the wonderful anomolies of working for Monarch... I'm an FO at Man on the 320 and haven't had a sniff voyage for over a year. Over the winter I was working on aveage 8-12 flights a month and the summer .. well I try not to think about it!
Sector pay would make my lot a much happier one.. but then perhaps a 757 captain would moan about the huge unfairness of that - and try to sue the Union - This is despite the fact that he has every opportunity to take home a minimum of £4000 of lovely voyage per annum...Perhaps I should complain at working considerably more hours and not having any opportunity to get any voyage... and my "effective" hourly rate being half of that of some lucky guys struggling on 400 hours a year.. But that would only make me bitter and twisted..
Instead I put my full force behind our CC who have come up with a well thought out and fair proposal which is trying to help alleviate some of those anomolies. It's not perfect - but it is a very big step in the right direction. However, our mangement have shown their true colours by not even having the good manners to enter into discussions..
Bealzebub - what in Gods name are you smoking??
As Splat rightly points out, Bealzebub has perhaps stumbled on the wonderful anomolies of working for Monarch... I'm an FO at Man on the 320 and haven't had a sniff voyage for over a year. Over the winter I was working on aveage 8-12 flights a month and the summer .. well I try not to think about it!
Sector pay would make my lot a much happier one.. but then perhaps a 757 captain would moan about the huge unfairness of that - and try to sue the Union - This is despite the fact that he has every opportunity to take home a minimum of £4000 of lovely voyage per annum...Perhaps I should complain at working considerably more hours and not having any opportunity to get any voyage... and my "effective" hourly rate being half of that of some lucky guys struggling on 400 hours a year.. But that would only make me bitter and twisted..
Instead I put my full force behind our CC who have come up with a well thought out and fair proposal which is trying to help alleviate some of those anomolies. It's not perfect - but it is a very big step in the right direction. However, our mangement have shown their true colours by not even having the good manners to enter into discussions..
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Monarch Pay
Have lurked for many years but what I have read today has driven me to respond!
Bealzebub, some posts here are exaggerated but yours takes the biscuit:
"12 flights a month averaging £28 split equally between Canaries and Spain." So that's 50% 8 hours and 50% 5 to be pessimistic. Average 6.5 hours X 12 X 12 equals 936 hours. Oops
That is why:
a) Even at MAN one can struggle to make £4000
b) 10/28 D/O is realistically possible on a no cost basis
As for your staff travel story, please tell us exactly how you saved £5620 on an outlay of £530? One of the 2 holidays/flights is LH offering max £600 off the BROCHURE price so, allowing for that, you must have saved £5020 on your short haul deal. Assuming none of your £530 went on the LH holiday (yeah right), 40% off means your total price of your SH deal must be £883, or you found some SH flights for £717 for each or the 7 of you. Please show me where my sums went wrong.
Monarch Basic pay is not actually that bad but without sector pay/profit share of EZY, hourly rate of VS, share options of FCA etc. plus pension deals of them all, the total financial remuneration is no longer remotely competetive.
Lets not even talk about
Scheduling agreement
Roster stability
18-30 hours rest
18+hour duty days
Bealzebub, some posts here are exaggerated but yours takes the biscuit:
"12 flights a month averaging £28 split equally between Canaries and Spain." So that's 50% 8 hours and 50% 5 to be pessimistic. Average 6.5 hours X 12 X 12 equals 936 hours. Oops
That is why:
a) Even at MAN one can struggle to make £4000
b) 10/28 D/O is realistically possible on a no cost basis
As for your staff travel story, please tell us exactly how you saved £5620 on an outlay of £530? One of the 2 holidays/flights is LH offering max £600 off the BROCHURE price so, allowing for that, you must have saved £5020 on your short haul deal. Assuming none of your £530 went on the LH holiday (yeah right), 40% off means your total price of your SH deal must be £883, or you found some SH flights for £717 for each or the 7 of you. Please show me where my sums went wrong.
Monarch Basic pay is not actually that bad but without sector pay/profit share of EZY, hourly rate of VS, share options of FCA etc. plus pension deals of them all, the total financial remuneration is no longer remotely competetive.
Lets not even talk about
Scheduling agreement
Roster stability
18-30 hours rest
18+hour duty days
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Well boys & girls, I have exagerrated nothing ( why would I need to ?), and have the yellow sheets in a drawer here to prove it. The yellow sheets were the record of how much we paid on daily flights and voyages, up until a couple of years ago when their use ( and method) was phased out for day flights. We still use them for voyage, but day flight allowances are now payroll items on a monthly basis.
As for the staff travel it was one long haul concession and one short haul concession for my family in accordance with the current rules. If you would like to PM me I will tell you exactly how it was done. By the way they were firm seat tickets and that is what happened.
Perhaps if your maths and the logic attached were not so distorted them upstairs might take you a bit more seriously as well ?
As for the staff travel it was one long haul concession and one short haul concession for my family in accordance with the current rules. If you would like to PM me I will tell you exactly how it was done. By the way they were firm seat tickets and that is what happened.
Perhaps if your maths and the logic attached were not so distorted them upstairs might take you a bit more seriously as well ?
Perhaps if your maths and the logic attached were not so distorted them upstairs might take you a bit more seriously as well ?
MAYBY if management weren't so interested in lining their own pockets with end of year profit related bonuses, and were a little more realistic with their interpretation of the mood of the troops, they wouldn't be having to face the threat of industrial action this summer
