flyingbug

I agree. For those in BACON taking the Orange option - good luck (sincerely meant - your current lack of job security is a heavy sword over the head).

For those in BACON that are willing to give Flybe a go - good luck too. Despite the fact that it is constantly knocked on Pprune, lots of us are happy in the company (me included).

And for those that don't want to join, good luck with the job-hunting, we don't want the bitterness.

AlphaCharlie

rhythm method ...
as stated before, the flybe square bond is for new employees post 1/7/06. No one who joined flybe before that (or ex bacon employees for that matter as stated in the q and a section of nextgenerationairline.com) will ever face a square bond.
W.w.w ...
Do easyjet have a reason behind why the 145 is considered ok for DEP but the Q400 is not? What at the end of the day is the difference apart from 12 visible blades on one? Q400 is heavier, has all the modern toys of a regional jet, outstanding performance, EFIS, more seats than the 145. Any reason why easyjet won't consider turboprop for DEP, even if they ask for more hours on it that they do a small regional jet? Or is the jet v turboprop rule going to live on forever? Chances are someone doing the 'bus type rating having come off the Q400 will cope considerably better than a guy coming off a 146-100!

If easyjet want good quality candidates to choose from why not broaden its net?

Noiffsorbuts

AC.

Suggest a possible reason why all of a sudden the 145 is OK for a DEC in Easyland is because Easy have sensed a brilliant commercial opportunity to drive a cart and horses through JFs plans to acquire our best for the price of a few monkey nuts.

6 Nil to Easy Id say so far.

skianyn vannin

Its because props aren't the new jets. They're for boats!

rhythm method

They have.. they are taking US in droves!

...what an incentive to join the 'nextgenerationairline'! And they wonder why they struggle to attract suitable crew? A happy and motivated workforce achieves more than a shackled maltreated one, who will be continually reading Flight from the back cover forwards.

AlphaCharlie

rhythm ...

couldn't agree more. But the company apparently refused to negotiate with BALPA CC on this issue. Sadly when it came to reduced salary for new joining f/o's the pay deal got voted in by a 51% to 49% majority. Not overly sure why Flybe think just because Ryanair do it that we can too ... bizarre thought process.

skianyn ...

so please tell me how exactly flying a 146-100 (for example) prepares a pilot any better for flying an A319 than a Q400 does?

Airlines continually spout nice catch phrases about safety, yet they always cut off a large percentage of highly qualified applicants purely on financial grounds. Quite how pilot training costs have become included in the same list of unnecessary expensives as passenger meals is stil beyond me!

rhythm method

That is a very sad and damning insight into the pilot workforce's opinion of each other, and their ability to negotiate with the man who likes to be portrayed as 'touchy feely'.

We have had a few 'I'm alright Jack' situations in BACON, but that involved returning surveys, etc... not quite as brutal as you tell. Good luck.

biddedout

I understand that the management road-show has been out again warning Bacons that if they don’t tell their reps to back off and blindly agree to everything that management stick under their noses, the deal is off (again). Last time they did this only six weeks ago, the reps hadn’t even met with management.

A lot of the anger and bitterness came about following those early meetings. A number of senior trainers were incensed by the aggressive attitude of one manager in particular who had been a colleague less than six months ago. With the attrition rate as it is, JF would be wise to pull these individuals to heel before they do any more damage. What could have been a great opportunity is rapidly turning into a farce. Loads of aeroplanes, a rapidly reducing pilot workforce and at the current rate of attrition, no one left to do the training!

GWYN

Mike Mercury

Chances of BACON #2 succeeding? Zero to nil I'd say. We know all about the Flight Ops people - and seriously the best of luck to NG, but even he admits what he's up against. Have you considered the ground staff in your calculations? Have you noticed how the announcement of the appointments keeps being put off? Could it possibly be that they are desperate and noone wants to work with them any more? Never has the expression 'Once bitten, twice shy,' been more apposite. If that is your choice one can really only wish you the best of luck. I am rather afraid that your option #2 is the most likely: in a couple of years your colleagues at LHR simply say, 'Thanks for keeping the slots warm, boys, see ya later!'

Yarpy

This is the very nub of where industrial relations fall apart. I just amazes me how some pilots are prepared to cut their former colleagues up to get a leg up the management rung. A 'friend' of mine has been angling for a management post for years. When I put it to him that he would need to cut his friends up to get on he repeatedly changed the subject. The git new what I was talking about and I knew that he knew it.

Hudson Bay

If so many pilots are leaving Bacon is it worth Jim French pursuing the purchase of Bacon? Most of the Captains in Manchester are moving to pastures new and who can blame them? Easy, Globespan, Jet 2 and now bmi. All half decent Jet jobs earning proper money. I very much doubt that the takeover will happen. The only downside is Pilots remaining at Bacon when Flybe decide to call the deal off will find themselves unemployed. The whole thing is a mess and the best advice is Get out now.

Ghengis Cant

HB there is a popular myth doing the rounds that Frenchyboy can back out of this deal at his whim.

This is an illusion he likes to perpetuate himself in order to build his own machismo when it comes to dealing with BACON Balpa who have so far refused to roll over.

Actualy he only has very limited legal opportunities to back out. The "due diligence" process did not give him such an opportunity.........(it could have done). The contract he has signed with BA carries some pretty heinous penalties if he backs out other than for good and specified cause.

Believe me or not as you will, but I will tell you now that failure on behalf of BACOn Balpa to accept his demands for rewriting contractual policies does not give him such an opportunity.

Like it or not he is on the hook and he has very very little opportunity to get out of the deal in any manner that would not leave him covered in SHoneT and substantialy the poorer.....to say nothing of his damaged City cred.

The penny is dropping just now that one third of Bacon pilots have already committed to go and the same number are also heading for the exits........so something needs to give...and fast.............else this is going to end up as a total shambles.

Those remaining in BACON will have a ballot on the terms thrashed out before they are accepted.............so if MR F is half the man I think he is then he will take a reality check and soon.

That reality check will involve making FLYBE the most attractive option available to those of us remaining who so far have given him the benefit of the doubt.................

BluffOldSeaDog

and we don't respond well to attempts to blind side us against our union either, that episode still leaves a very bad taste

bermudatriangle

This doomed fiasco continues its long played out drama.it was never a good deal for FLYBE.BA were very astute in trying to dump this loss making,mish mash that masquerades as a "proper"airline,for a seemingly large one off cash injection.the penny has dropped that the huge cash ammount that initially seemed so attractive to the boy scouts in the hut in Exeter,will soon disappear in any attempted integration.the pension liabilities of the long serving crews are just 1 example of the horrors that await the initially keen purchaser. Only a commitment by BA to an open ended cheque book will satisfy the now very doubtfull prospective buyer.will BA be that desperate,who can tell...as i warned many weeks ago...this deal is far from done.

remoak

Complete and utter cobblers. The due diligence process is the ONLY opportunity to back out, that is the whole point of the process. It can have whatever parameters were agreed to, and I am absolutely certain that you are not privy to them. Those parameters can include satisfactory resolution of staffing issues.

If I were JF, I would be extremely happy that staff are leaving - the more, the better! The staff are his only liability in this venture. As I understand it, he isn't taking any of the airframes, they are all being returned to lessors. So the staff, their T & Cs, pensions etc become his problem, and the more he can get rid of, the cheaper the outcome for him. And the power of the union diminishes with every resignation...

The best outcome for JF is the cash from BA, as few legacy crews as possible, and no competition on the ex-BACON routes. He will always be able to find raw F/O's for the Dash, and will continue to promote at the earliest opportunity. Life will go on.

What some of you BACON guys need to wake up to, is that your old T & Cs are history and the more of you that leave, the less clout you have. The other thing is that JF doesn't need you, you only think he does.

BTW I don't think any of this is a good thing, and it is hard to see a once-promising operation turn into dust before your eyes. However, just pretending that you have some intrinsic value to flybe in this situation, and that you will therefore get your way, is not a good thing either.

bermudatriangle

remoak,you are a bit hard on the Bacon guys,none of this fiasco is their fault.as always the real villains are willie walsh and the appaling BA management team from waterside and didsbury.ba put this multi headed hydra of an airline together,it was never,ever going to be a sucess as it was set up from a disjointed group of failing smaller operators.GO was the only lo cost role model of any substance,so what did the dummies at BA do,sold it off and tried to make a sucess of bacon...what an utter disaster.one of many dreadfull management decisions from the worlds, rapidly becoming ,most misguided airline.i just hope the deal collapses and ba have to try again,they have the cash to do it properly,9 billion to invest in new aircraft !!! they just arent interested in anything other than t5 at heathrow.all eggs in 1 basket..mark my words,that will prove to be the biggest ever management mistake from BA...just wish someone with some business accumen would be put in charge....it could all be so much better !!!! still who am i to comment.

Bonzoboy

This is all very sad for you guys. Live life whilst it lasts and make the most of it.

I know that I have asked this before, but.....does anyone have anything to say about FLYBE recruitment for DEC Q400 pilots ?

Comments welcome. Good Luck Chaps

RAFAT

How the seniority lists are merged will be the deciding factor in that Bonzo, if a BACON pilot has the experience AND seniority the opportunitites will be there for sure.

I'm not confident the T & Cs issue will be sorted satisfactorily though, there's just too much of a gap in how the 2 Companies treat their Staff.

remoak

bermudatriangle

I'm not being hard on them at all, simply facing the facts - and I absolutely agree with what you are saying. Sadly this is a business decision, and I for one have been here before. In my previous experience, the single biggest deciding factor in how staff were treated, was pension liability. The purchasing company, in order to reduce the size of this liability (potentially worth many millions), deliberately made staying with them unattractive. The more that left, the better the position for the purchasing company. And what sort of shape is the BA pension fund in? I can't imagine that they are unhappy about losing some or all of that liability - it goes a long way to explain the size of the incentive payment to flybe to purchase BACON. It would be interesting to know more about what has been negotiated on pensions.

This isn't just about filling seats in cockpits - flybe don't need to instantly start flying all the routes, they can simply cherry-pick the ones they want and build up slowly.

As others have said, the gulf between T & Cs in each company is quite wide. I don't believe for a minute that the BACON crews will get what they expect or want. The wise ones are jumping ship.

Thumperdown

Remoak said
"He will always be able to find raw F/O's for the Dash"
But its not raw F/O's that he needs - it is experience in the left hand seat, which BACON has in spades. No doubt this is because BACON recruited and retained its workforce with reasonable t's & c's. It is why the most junior captains have around 5-6 years service!
With regard to pensions - BACON is not in the BA scheme. There is a final salary scheme (BRAL scheme) which had a deficit of 13m ish which BA have agreed to fully fund before it is closed and the members deferred. The current flybe money purchase scheme would then be offered to BACON joiners.
J French has made it clear that he wants the pilots, cabin crew and the warm routes. He has stated this will allow flybe to move forward their business plan by 2 years without spilling too much blood 'taking routes'. He has aircraft arriving at a rate at which he cannot crew. He is desperate to get hold of the BACON trainers who are a fantastic bunch with loads of modern training experience & enthusiasm. At the moment Flight safety are doing the training and it is not cheap - but then neither is the experience of the bacon butties!!