FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
Whilst we are on the subject, Gents, I'm in a similar situation to Bonzoboy. I.e. I've been away from flying (Jet command) for a few years. DEC with Flybe would be ideal for me. However, for personal reasons, I would be looking for a part time position.
Is the 70% deal still on the table? I'm watching the market forces closely. These types of deals only seem to come up when the airline is really desperate.
Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
Is the 70% deal still on the table? I'm watching the market forces closely. These types of deals only seem to come up when the airline is really desperate.
Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Bonzoboy et al
Go to the flybe website www.flybe.com. Click the tab 'about flybe' and select 'vacancies'. then click on 'Click here for more information' under pilot recruitment. You will find the direct entry captain application postal and email address there.
Regards
Thumper
Go to the flybe website www.flybe.com. Click the tab 'about flybe' and select 'vacancies'. then click on 'Click here for more information' under pilot recruitment. You will find the direct entry captain application postal and email address there.
Regards
Thumper
Thanks, but the website doesn't give any info about the 70% deal. I don't want to waste the airlines time or mine by going all the way to the interview just to ask the question . . .
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Bonzoboy and Spartacan.
I think the issue of part time is too vague to give you definite answers. On my course 2 guys wanted to go part time - both were refused (One was at my base, the other somewhere else [with no part timers]). 2 months after checking out, along comes a guy to my base who was recruited on a part time contract!
Guys at my base have reapplied for part time and again been refused. It would seem to me that the chances of getting part time AFTER joining are a bit problematic, DOJ/Seniority, etc. But then maybe playing hard to get and refusing to sign up unless you get a PT contract, might work. In someways it did for me; I refused point blank to join unless I got the base I wanted - I wasn't prepared to move/commute until a slot became available at that base (maybe).
Ultimately it's supply and demand. If they need pilots and you come along and are prepared to join, albeit on your terms, then you might be lucky. But once in the system, your bargaining power is GONE and you join the queue like everyone else. By "terms" I mean base/part time, not "terms and conditions". As far as they're concerned it's the same S%$£ for everyone!!!
Not sure that helps but it might give you an insight into the mindset of some of the recruiters.
I think the issue of part time is too vague to give you definite answers. On my course 2 guys wanted to go part time - both were refused (One was at my base, the other somewhere else [with no part timers]). 2 months after checking out, along comes a guy to my base who was recruited on a part time contract!
Guys at my base have reapplied for part time and again been refused. It would seem to me that the chances of getting part time AFTER joining are a bit problematic, DOJ/Seniority, etc. But then maybe playing hard to get and refusing to sign up unless you get a PT contract, might work. In someways it did for me; I refused point blank to join unless I got the base I wanted - I wasn't prepared to move/commute until a slot became available at that base (maybe).
Ultimately it's supply and demand. If they need pilots and you come along and are prepared to join, albeit on your terms, then you might be lucky. But once in the system, your bargaining power is GONE and you join the queue like everyone else. By "terms" I mean base/part time, not "terms and conditions". As far as they're concerned it's the same S%$£ for everyone!!!
Not sure that helps but it might give you an insight into the mindset of some of the recruiters.
Thread Starter
Bonzo and Sparty,
I was asking a mate in Flybe about this as I too would be interested. It would appear that about 7% of the pilots are on some kind of part part time with the most junior having just over a year and a half in the company. 70% is the norm.
There are also a few frelancers.
I was asking a mate in Flybe about this as I too would be interested. It would appear that about 7% of the pilots are on some kind of part part time with the most junior having just over a year and a half in the company. 70% is the norm.
There are also a few frelancers.
BusterHot and biddedout thanks very much. Sounds promising.
The point about bargaining power is understood. It's not possible for me to relocate and I have other responsibilities. A full time roster would be a disaster but part time quite workable. I appreciate the point about losing bargaining power once in the company. The 'square' bond give the company a big stick. However, airlines often lose a lot of pilots during and following a merger and this ups the ante as regards terms and conditions. I've been there before and know what sort of things get said at board level.
I assume that 70% means 'five on five off' and you fly flat out for the five days? No problem with that but I need the days off.
I shall continue to watch things closely!
The point about bargaining power is understood. It's not possible for me to relocate and I have other responsibilities. A full time roster would be a disaster but part time quite workable. I appreciate the point about losing bargaining power once in the company. The 'square' bond give the company a big stick. However, airlines often lose a lot of pilots during and following a merger and this ups the ante as regards terms and conditions. I've been there before and know what sort of things get said at board level.
I assume that 70% means 'five on five off' and you fly flat out for the five days? No problem with that but I need the days off.
I shall continue to watch things closely!
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Spartacan,
You are indeed correct in your assumption. However, just a small note of caution; the company sadly has a poor track record in promising all kinds of deals to new DECs and then subsequently failing to deliver. There is a rather rapidly revolving door with experienced chaps like yourself and Bonzoboy who join believing it will suit them only to find that reality fails to match expectations and they are gone within 6 - 12 months.
Hopefully, the company will at long last try its best to reach a 'win-win' situation in this regard.
You are indeed correct in your assumption. However, just a small note of caution; the company sadly has a poor track record in promising all kinds of deals to new DECs and then subsequently failing to deliver. There is a rather rapidly revolving door with experienced chaps like yourself and Bonzoboy who join believing it will suit them only to find that reality fails to match expectations and they are gone within 6 - 12 months.
Hopefully, the company will at long last try its best to reach a 'win-win' situation in this regard.
Er, Yes. The reason I have experience to offer is because I am old and ugly. My wife and I have discussed, at length, an application to Flybe as we have been burned badly with lifestyle issues and base changes before. The issue is the 'square' bond. Working part time and leaving within a year could actually leave me out of pocket.
My experience of these independent companies is that the management mindset is derived from the attitude of the owners who rarely change their spots.
I'm holding out for the deal I want so I shall watch the situation closely and proceed with caution.
Thanks very much for the warning.
My experience of these independent companies is that the management mindset is derived from the attitude of the owners who rarely change their spots.
I'm holding out for the deal I want so I shall watch the situation closely and proceed with caution.
Thanks very much for the warning.
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Spartacan, I have to agree with Maude Charlee. Flybe have a history of offering psychological contracts, once you are in they have you by the short & curlies. It will be a very expensive mistake to make if you decide it is not for you and does not suit the purpose you have mentioned.
You are absolutely right regarding the Leopard.
You are absolutely right regarding the Leopard.
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Spartacan, Maude Charlee's words of caution are, sadly, quite accurate.
A couple of years ago Flybe did take on a batch of part-time remotely rostered pilots. The guys worked a 70% 7 on 7 off pattern, and this was a good situation for all concerned. The Company were able to plug the ever-increasing number of holes in its establishment plan around the bases, and the pilots themselves were able to live where they wanted to live.
Unfortunately, along came a new Ops Director who couldn't see further than the end of his nose, and, without considering what a benefit it was to have these flexible assets, decided that they were enjoying too much of a 'special' deal, and told them to accept a permanent base or leave. As Maude Charlee said, half of them chose to use the Flybe rapid revolving door. Of course the establishment holes still remain, so the number of nightstops are still the same, but over a 7 day period they now have to use several different guys from several different bases who would rather be at home, rather than a remotely rostered pilot who made the choice to be there. For some reason Flybe seems to enjoy pi*%ing its pilots off, and often deliberately finds a way to do it. When airline crew became affected by the Working Time Directive, the 7 on 7 off changed to 5 on 5 off.
The other downside of being part time at Flybe is that there is no part time protocol. Full time = 22 days per month, so part time is a proportion thereof, and whereas the average part time checkout operator at your local supermarket will work a percentage of the weekly full time hours, a Flybe part timer will generally work slightly over and above the number of hours that his/her full time colleague will during his/her days on. That's because the higher number of days off between working periods means FTLs are never breached, so they take advantage of this and hammer you! I basically worked full time hours for 70% of the salary, and for this reason part time pilots are appealing to the Flybe bean counters. BALPA is currently working on this issue, but there's so much other crap to wade through first.
Your decision to proceed with caution is wise, and quite frankly unless you live 5 minutes from a Flybe base the square bond makes it a no-brainer. There are many within that believe that the bond would not stand up to a legal challenge, but nobody's elected to go down that route yet.
Edited to word things a bit better
A couple of years ago Flybe did take on a batch of part-time remotely rostered pilots. The guys worked a 70% 7 on 7 off pattern, and this was a good situation for all concerned. The Company were able to plug the ever-increasing number of holes in its establishment plan around the bases, and the pilots themselves were able to live where they wanted to live.
Unfortunately, along came a new Ops Director who couldn't see further than the end of his nose, and, without considering what a benefit it was to have these flexible assets, decided that they were enjoying too much of a 'special' deal, and told them to accept a permanent base or leave. As Maude Charlee said, half of them chose to use the Flybe rapid revolving door. Of course the establishment holes still remain, so the number of nightstops are still the same, but over a 7 day period they now have to use several different guys from several different bases who would rather be at home, rather than a remotely rostered pilot who made the choice to be there. For some reason Flybe seems to enjoy pi*%ing its pilots off, and often deliberately finds a way to do it. When airline crew became affected by the Working Time Directive, the 7 on 7 off changed to 5 on 5 off.
The other downside of being part time at Flybe is that there is no part time protocol. Full time = 22 days per month, so part time is a proportion thereof, and whereas the average part time checkout operator at your local supermarket will work a percentage of the weekly full time hours, a Flybe part timer will generally work slightly over and above the number of hours that his/her full time colleague will during his/her days on. That's because the higher number of days off between working periods means FTLs are never breached, so they take advantage of this and hammer you! I basically worked full time hours for 70% of the salary, and for this reason part time pilots are appealing to the Flybe bean counters. BALPA is currently working on this issue, but there's so much other crap to wade through first.
Your decision to proceed with caution is wise, and quite frankly unless you live 5 minutes from a Flybe base the square bond makes it a no-brainer. There are many within that believe that the bond would not stand up to a legal challenge, but nobody's elected to go down that route yet.
Edited to word things a bit better
Last edited by RAFAT; 13th Jan 2007 at 01:15.
Torycanyon and RAFAT thanks for your comments.
Some years ago I accepted a 'psychological' contract. The airline were emphatic that their working practices predicated a certain lifestyle yet the contract merely stated 'Rostered in accordance with CAP 371'. The resulting roster meant long periods away from home and an argument ensued. Many pilots left the airline and, eventually, the Ops Director got the boot.
I am looking at one more airline job then packing up. However, I have set the bar at part time from my local Flybe base 40 minutes down the road. I take the point about the inequitable part time roster. However, it's the days off I want so I don't mind working flat out on a block of five from home base. The difficulty would seem to be getting the airline to enshrine that in contract. I could put my cards on the table at the outset. Alternatively I could get them to like me and then ask for the deal I want. If it's not offered then I stay put. Mrs S. would have to keep working for a bit longer but then she and the kids get me at home so it's a compromise we would accept.
On balance I will see how the merger pans out and just whack in my CV at an appropriate juncture. One assumes the Flybe management read Pprune and I don't want them to see me coming!
Irrespective I hope the merger goes well for the guys. It can be a horribly unsettling time for families and don't I know it.
Some years ago I accepted a 'psychological' contract. The airline were emphatic that their working practices predicated a certain lifestyle yet the contract merely stated 'Rostered in accordance with CAP 371'. The resulting roster meant long periods away from home and an argument ensued. Many pilots left the airline and, eventually, the Ops Director got the boot.
I am looking at one more airline job then packing up. However, I have set the bar at part time from my local Flybe base 40 minutes down the road. I take the point about the inequitable part time roster. However, it's the days off I want so I don't mind working flat out on a block of five from home base. The difficulty would seem to be getting the airline to enshrine that in contract. I could put my cards on the table at the outset. Alternatively I could get them to like me and then ask for the deal I want. If it's not offered then I stay put. Mrs S. would have to keep working for a bit longer but then she and the kids get me at home so it's a compromise we would accept.
On balance I will see how the merger pans out and just whack in my CV at an appropriate juncture. One assumes the Flybe management read Pprune and I don't want them to see me coming!
Irrespective I hope the merger goes well for the guys. It can be a horribly unsettling time for families and don't I know it.
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One third of BACON pilots now on their way to other jobs with firm leave dates !!!!!
Can only speculate how many others are on their way but probably almost as many again.
So Mr French what is your game?
This is either deliberate (??) or downright careless for having done nothing to make us feel FLYBE was worth working for.
Interesting.
Can only speculate how many others are on their way but probably almost as many again.
So Mr French what is your game?
This is either deliberate (??) or downright careless for having done nothing to make us feel FLYBE was worth working for.
Interesting.
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Would appear that so many trainers have gone as well that some sim details are now being truncated to bare legal minimum. (Just had mine cut to one session only..........no LOFT exercise).
Fair to say that BACON currently does not have the resources to train new pilots if it is pushed to keep those remaining current.
Something has got to happen very soon or there really will be nothing left anyway. IF JF wants us then he needs to wisen up to what the competition are offering and give the impression that he gives a damn about us joing his company.
Fair to say that BACON currently does not have the resources to train new pilots if it is pushed to keep those remaining current.
Something has got to happen very soon or there really will be nothing left anyway. IF JF wants us then he needs to wisen up to what the competition are offering and give the impression that he gives a damn about us joing his company.
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JF always gives the impression that he genuinely cares, he says all the right things, but the problem is that he can't effectively monitor what gets disseminated by those immediately below him. By the time anything that was well-intentioned reaches the masses it's been completely changed by senior management who have the opposite intent. They simply do not have the skills to deal with what Flybe is becoming.
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RAFAT that would be all well and good and almost believable (We know one or two of the characters you refer to rather well) but for the fact that it appears to be JF who is determined to abolish the roster stability that we are used to and which we fought hard to embody in our scheduling agreement.
That single fact is probably the greatest reason now that many of those remaining will leave.
That single fact is probably the greatest reason now that many of those remaining will leave.
