'Will work for free'
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Callsign Kilo: I for one am prepared to work at lower end of the market scale as an inexperienced employee, if/when I am hired after completeing the training. But no way would I work for less than industry average for the position. Thats exploitation, and most corporations carefully study the industry in calculating renumerations to avoid allegations of expolitation.
At the end of day, am I right in saying that you are much more likely to be "exploited" if you work for a loco?. When you say the "airlines play on this" are you refering to all airlines or just the "undesirable few".
I want to fly professionally, but not to the expense of my self-respect as an employee. You need to feel valued and be payed sensibly - its common sense - is it really getting that bad out there?
At the end of day, am I right in saying that you are much more likely to be "exploited" if you work for a loco?. When you say the "airlines play on this" are you refering to all airlines or just the "undesirable few".
I want to fly professionally, but not to the expense of my self-respect as an employee. You need to feel valued and be payed sensibly - its common sense - is it really getting that bad out there?
Last edited by Bandit650; 21st Feb 2007 at 10:59.
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Bandit650,
Good points and I agree, in fact I don't see much in aviation that is unique to aviation except the impact that the pilot can have on the business which is where collective bargaining becomes important and where flying for free is potentially so damaging.
I'm still (unfortunately) in IT as a consultant and am charged out at at three times the amount of my Indian colleagues and still doing, in theory, the same job. But I have the knack of being able to add 'value' (note the single quotes) at multiple points in the process primarily due to, as you say, experience.
The pilots lot, from what I can see I hasten to add, is not quite so flexible (chief, training and operation cross-over excepted). Apart from flying punctually and efficiently (the minimum requirement for the job) there is not much a pilot can do in the course of his normal duties to improve the commercial situation for an airline. An IT bod can have a bright idea and save the organisation £2M in one go (the fact it is usually the reverse is another issue). By and large, when a pilot needs to make exceptional decisions, it tends to result in negative stuff like diversions, delays, etc - they are made on safety grounds not commercial ones. On that basis, as an individual first officer, an individually negotiated contract as is usual in something like IT, must be difficult (FR for example).
After much recent pondering it seems to me that the notion of working for free is an individual decision, rather than the concept of wanting to join an industry based on what it has to offer in terms of T&Cs. Whether this strand of individually motivated T&Cs will undermine those higher up the chain I'm not too sure. At the moment it seems to create a two tier system with a T&C barrier at the appropriate vaguely useful experience level (end of line training?). A bit like an inversion, once you've climbed through the bump it is all blue skies...or so my personal theory goes
Good points and I agree, in fact I don't see much in aviation that is unique to aviation except the impact that the pilot can have on the business which is where collective bargaining becomes important and where flying for free is potentially so damaging.
I'm still (unfortunately) in IT as a consultant and am charged out at at three times the amount of my Indian colleagues and still doing, in theory, the same job. But I have the knack of being able to add 'value' (note the single quotes) at multiple points in the process primarily due to, as you say, experience.
The pilots lot, from what I can see I hasten to add, is not quite so flexible (chief, training and operation cross-over excepted). Apart from flying punctually and efficiently (the minimum requirement for the job) there is not much a pilot can do in the course of his normal duties to improve the commercial situation for an airline. An IT bod can have a bright idea and save the organisation £2M in one go (the fact it is usually the reverse is another issue). By and large, when a pilot needs to make exceptional decisions, it tends to result in negative stuff like diversions, delays, etc - they are made on safety grounds not commercial ones. On that basis, as an individual first officer, an individually negotiated contract as is usual in something like IT, must be difficult (FR for example).
After much recent pondering it seems to me that the notion of working for free is an individual decision, rather than the concept of wanting to join an industry based on what it has to offer in terms of T&Cs. Whether this strand of individually motivated T&Cs will undermine those higher up the chain I'm not too sure. At the moment it seems to create a two tier system with a T&C barrier at the appropriate vaguely useful experience level (end of line training?). A bit like an inversion, once you've climbed through the bump it is all blue skies...or so my personal theory goes
Although im not in the same position as most of the people posting here I can certainly appreciate where Scroggs is coming from,in any job with a high degree of training and time spent getting qualified be it lawyer, pilot, engineer etc (sorry as a B1 licence holder I had to throw that last one in there) the only upshot I can see from people being ready to work for free is that it will cheapen your proffession and undermine all your hard work and time spent aspiring to a respectable well paid job.
At the same time with the industry being in the state it is in,as mentioned before on this thread, airlines can afford to be picky but it doesnt help the newly qualified fATPL holder who needs to keep his hours up (ie get a job) but cant get a job because he doesnt have enough hours - Catch 22 anybody?
In maintenance we are already seeing the result of people willing to work for less/cheap labour rates on a grand scale with the outsourcing of heavy maintenance to cheaper providers in cheaper countries - is that relevant here?Maybe not on the surface but hopefully it may provide food for thought.
Just my two cents worth...Good luck to all of you who are job hunting.
At the same time with the industry being in the state it is in,as mentioned before on this thread, airlines can afford to be picky but it doesnt help the newly qualified fATPL holder who needs to keep his hours up (ie get a job) but cant get a job because he doesnt have enough hours - Catch 22 anybody?
In maintenance we are already seeing the result of people willing to work for less/cheap labour rates on a grand scale with the outsourcing of heavy maintenance to cheaper providers in cheaper countries - is that relevant here?Maybe not on the surface but hopefully it may provide food for thought.
Just my two cents worth...Good luck to all of you who are job hunting.
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Superpilot This thread is not about Ryanair. It is about the principle of working for lower than the fair market rate. Ryanair may have examples of this, but it is far from the only one. However, the point about FR not being subject to UK employment law (though it is subject to EU employment law) is a salient one, and may apply to many of the companies that our wannabes may be attracted to. The fact remains that you cannot repay a debt of a hundred thousand pounds from a poor or non-existant wage, whoever your employer is.
geraldn No-one has a monopoly on wisdom!
Scroggs
geraldn No-one has a monopoly on wisdom!
Scroggs
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''No-one has a monopoly on wisdom!''
Granted, i never thought otherwise, it just seems funny to me that it had to be a non pilot to come up with the best post.
Granted, i never thought otherwise, it just seems funny to me that it had to be a non pilot to come up with the best post.
Many thanks for the sentiment geraldn, it was just something I had been following with interest and as I rarely contribute thought I might pipe up as a relative outsider on the subject.
Scroggs - never a truer sentence spoken!Daresay I will bump into you in the forward galley mid cup of tea one of these days
Scroggs - never a truer sentence spoken!Daresay I will bump into you in the forward galley mid cup of tea one of these days
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Working for free???
There certainly have been some brilliant posts from many countering this idea of "working for free". As mentioned by High Wing Drifer yesterday, the current state of play is surely driving away some of the best and most suitable candidates for professional pilot positions.
Even being left with only a break even amount of money at the end of the month (let alone massive debt) for long periods can have serious personal and social effects (relationships etc. etc.). If we are dealing with the possibilty of a generation of professional pilots that are heavily in debt, and who are, in being prepared (or through an erosion of conditions) to work either for free or for very low returns then surely the industry is on shaky ground. Combine issues of profound long term debt (and an inability to get out of debt due to poor Ts & Cs) with fatigue and increasing pressures such as tight turnarounds etc. and some not-so-nice possibilties start to emerge.
If some people here are determined to work for free or at rates seriously less than the market rate, why not suck up your single-minded ambition (which seems to me to be centered solely on flying jets for major airlines) and search out a flying position in which you can donate your flying skills to causes other than the M O'Leary's of this world? (these people are certainly not working for free) Surely this would be more rewarding? Maybe get out of flying altogether and work for a decent charitable cause.
The flying world seems vast to me and is not limited to flying 738s around Europe. Maybe some reassessment and some new horizons are in order for the "work for free" posters here.
EF.
BTW - if anyone does happen to know a "work for free" FI in West Yorkshire could you please PM me. I am about 10 hrs into my PPL and it would be great to cut back on costs. Come to think of it, s/he could come and pick me up from my place and drive me to and from the airfield. After lessons we could go to the pub (their shout of course)... Wow, I'm kind of liking this idea.
Even being left with only a break even amount of money at the end of the month (let alone massive debt) for long periods can have serious personal and social effects (relationships etc. etc.). If we are dealing with the possibilty of a generation of professional pilots that are heavily in debt, and who are, in being prepared (or through an erosion of conditions) to work either for free or for very low returns then surely the industry is on shaky ground. Combine issues of profound long term debt (and an inability to get out of debt due to poor Ts & Cs) with fatigue and increasing pressures such as tight turnarounds etc. and some not-so-nice possibilties start to emerge.
If some people here are determined to work for free or at rates seriously less than the market rate, why not suck up your single-minded ambition (which seems to me to be centered solely on flying jets for major airlines) and search out a flying position in which you can donate your flying skills to causes other than the M O'Leary's of this world? (these people are certainly not working for free) Surely this would be more rewarding? Maybe get out of flying altogether and work for a decent charitable cause.
The flying world seems vast to me and is not limited to flying 738s around Europe. Maybe some reassessment and some new horizons are in order for the "work for free" posters here.
EF.
BTW - if anyone does happen to know a "work for free" FI in West Yorkshire could you please PM me. I am about 10 hrs into my PPL and it would be great to cut back on costs. Come to think of it, s/he could come and pick me up from my place and drive me to and from the airfield. After lessons we could go to the pub (their shout of course)... Wow, I'm kind of liking this idea.
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Honour is a gift you give yourself, and following a long career, if still alive, it is all that is left. For as pilots you don't design, build or improve anything. How much honour do you finish your career with when you started out by working for free?
It's about professional conduct just as much as wearing shiny shoes and tucking in your shirt. If a company chooses to use your services for free (NOTE that I'm avoiding the word 'employ'), do you really want to work for a company that can see no other way to grow their business other than to pay their workers nothing?
The purpose of a career is to make as much money as you can by doing the least amount of work possible. Any ramblings about "living the dream" will die off after the first few years, that's life.
Analysis of risk is evident in every aspect of my daily life, the way I drive, the time I spent deciding on which mortgage, the type of house I live in. A career in engineering has taught me how to measure & balance risk … exactly the attributes I thought made me suited to being a pilot. But, alas, this thread has made me realise that those who appear to succeed in today's aviation world are the ones who have no aversion to risk, don't know how to quantify it and have no cares for their future or retirement - I'll bet that many of those 100k in debt couldn't even state their APR if asked.
If working for free is what it takes to get started in aviation then I simply won't do it, I'm better than that - I'll put my CPL to good use instructing at the flying club at weekends while I have a proper career during the week. I'll be content knowing that my future is secure.
If you work for free then that is exactly what you are worth as an individual: nothing.
It's about professional conduct just as much as wearing shiny shoes and tucking in your shirt. If a company chooses to use your services for free (NOTE that I'm avoiding the word 'employ'), do you really want to work for a company that can see no other way to grow their business other than to pay their workers nothing?
The purpose of a career is to make as much money as you can by doing the least amount of work possible. Any ramblings about "living the dream" will die off after the first few years, that's life.
Analysis of risk is evident in every aspect of my daily life, the way I drive, the time I spent deciding on which mortgage, the type of house I live in. A career in engineering has taught me how to measure & balance risk … exactly the attributes I thought made me suited to being a pilot. But, alas, this thread has made me realise that those who appear to succeed in today's aviation world are the ones who have no aversion to risk, don't know how to quantify it and have no cares for their future or retirement - I'll bet that many of those 100k in debt couldn't even state their APR if asked.
If working for free is what it takes to get started in aviation then I simply won't do it, I'm better than that - I'll put my CPL to good use instructing at the flying club at weekends while I have a proper career during the week. I'll be content knowing that my future is secure.
If you work for free then that is exactly what you are worth as an individual: nothing.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
My ATPL means that I can fly for hire or reward. That means money. Hours aren't a reward. I can't take my log book down to the local shops and expect to buy food with it.
I respect my licenses and the effort it took to get them. I am a professional pilot and will not work for free.
I don't ask the apprentice hair dresser to cut my hair for free. Why should I?
I don't ask the plumber to sort out a drain for free. He'd walk out.
If I asked an accountant to sort my tax for free, it wouldn't get done OR I'd be suspicious of the care and attention paid to my finances.
People think that they can accept the rubbish conditions for their first jet job because then they can get hours and move to BA or Virgin Atlantic. Think again, the conditions at BA aren't what they used to be, probably because new pilots have happy to accept rubbish conditions for their first jet job. This means that BA have had to compete with low cost/low wage carriers which has a negative effect on their own salaries. Note, Virgin Atlantic still have a higher hour requirement for their crews so aren't as susceptible to the pay for rating/pay for hours deals.
Yes, a jet job is desirable for many reasons. It took me 18 years to get one.
I respect my licenses and the effort it took to get them. I am a professional pilot and will not work for free.
I don't ask the apprentice hair dresser to cut my hair for free. Why should I?
I don't ask the plumber to sort out a drain for free. He'd walk out.
If I asked an accountant to sort my tax for free, it wouldn't get done OR I'd be suspicious of the care and attention paid to my finances.
People think that they can accept the rubbish conditions for their first jet job because then they can get hours and move to BA or Virgin Atlantic. Think again, the conditions at BA aren't what they used to be, probably because new pilots have happy to accept rubbish conditions for their first jet job. This means that BA have had to compete with low cost/low wage carriers which has a negative effect on their own salaries. Note, Virgin Atlantic still have a higher hour requirement for their crews so aren't as susceptible to the pay for rating/pay for hours deals.
Yes, a jet job is desirable for many reasons. It took me 18 years to get one.
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This Is Not About Jets Its About Opportunites
Redsnail I remember you when you used to work on sheds in fact and have followed some of your career and fully support all you have done and would love to follow in your footsteps but cannot as there are NO other opportunites out there. Your post though appearing to disagree with me actually proves my point. You waited 18yrs for your chance I have waited 4 for mine but this is not my chosen route I would have preffered some light charter then TP work but there isn't any.
I think some of the more vociferous respondees should actually go back to my first post on this topic. I did not actually advocate or even show a desire to work for free. I stated that IF and ONLY IF it was the only way to get into the RHS ANYWHERE then I would do it because there are no other opportunities available. ANYWHERE = Chieftan, Seneca, King Air i.e really anywhere.
For clarification, the statement is nothing to do with getting RHS of a jet I just wanted (past tense) to get ANY flying job. If Flybe had interviewed me and asked me to pay for a TR and offered me the chance of a contract/job/trial at the end I would have signed in blood there and then.
The only reason this debate seems to have gone down the route of
becoming jet oriented is because High Wing, Scroggs, et al have made it so.
As for HWD and the others that seem to think that you just borrow the money for the type rating and then try and get by on £750 per month from FR don't be churlish. You borrow your usual monthly salary so say £3.5k take home per month for 12 months and then add the cost of transport, plus accomodation, misc and add all of this together this comes to over £50k investment and then you take home £55k per year so are back to your original salary. So you actually borrow £42 plus the type rating £18k i.e. £60k
To add to the £60-80k you have probably already built up from original fATPL course and the lack of money from the salary difference between a living wage and an instructing for a few years and there is the total probably nearer £120k of debt. So how do you pay it back? read on.....
People stop pretending £100,000 is a lot of money. You cannot even get a studio flat for £100,000. One of my best friends is a barrister he like all barrister's worked for... wait for it free!!! for his pupilage and funnily enough now earns the wage commensurate with the job. My wife a chartered accountant who did not quite work for free but got £11k as a trainee for her first year. She too had debts from university etc but didn't baulk at the opportunity strangely enough she now earns a comensurate wage for her job. Deloitte, Pricewaterhouse Coopers etc amongst toerhs pay £20k as a training salary now. Why? They could not get enough applicants of sufficient quality through the door. When this happens in aviation then our wages will reflect it, for now they don't its called a free market. Back to the money...
Any 3 bed semi average £250,000 (in the south before the screams start) can expect to grow by 40-50k in equity every 3-4 years so after oh say 10 years of paying an extra £500 per month on your mortgage you have made the money back in equity alone. This is hardly what is described above as crippling debt now is it. Then all salary can be devoted to school fees, holidays and pensions as required. This is not the scenario being described above.
Lets be honest the guy who sold you your last mobile phone takes home £40k a year, the guy managing McDonalds take home £35k it is not difficult to make enough money to pay back this sort of debt and this is with a 3 bed semi. So unless you really need the 5 bed detached with pool in Gerrards Cross I think that my wife and I are not quite on the poverty line yet.
You can spend £30k on a new car, £5k on a decent skiing holiday so let's not pretend that £100k of debt for a lifetime qualification is so massive an investment that I and others shall be hanging around King's Cross with a sign saying get it here to raise extra cash.
I am sure from my posts that it is clear that I wish to have a long and full career in aviation I have no intention of spending my life working for nothing but Scroggs et al believes that I am on some campaign to get thier Ts&Cs demolished. The chap who spoke about standing shoulder to shoulder should then agree that he should be standing shoulder to shoulder with me and others now to get fair selection rather than a pecuniary based system but until that happens if anyone has a better suggestion for getting a job please do tell us all and end this debate.
Scroggs I did not make the system, I reiterate that you are senior enough in it use your voice to change it. I just take what is there and I as I keep saying have a right to take every opportunity presented. If this means that I need to have Redsnails career path or work in the North Pole and work from larger to larger aircraft then I AM HAPPY TO DO IT. There are however NO OTHER opportunites out there. So address that. NOT that I am willing to take the only thing available to me. I have just as much (no more, no less) right as you to earn a living from flying.
Seems a pretty good deal compared to working for Flybe, had they ever interviewed me, for £22k for 3 yrs by which time the only winner would be the official receiver.
Sir Pratt and Jonty perhaps you would like to elaborate rather than just posting a sneer. If you email or apply you get no reply and or nothing followed by no interviews. So hence doorstepping is the next logical step, though you seem to believe that you know the finer points of negotiation I would like to see your first attempts a negotiating in Bosnia with a rifle in your face. Like those who cannot see the difference between passion and the ability to fly safely you run the risk of colouring your judgement by assuming that I have the narrowness of thought that you are exhibiting with your raposte.
May I suggest that you spot the difference between the two and actually counter my argument rather than make blanket assumptions and statements like "I can see why he hasn't got an interview" Can you? what are those reasons? Share them with the forum so that we can all benefit from your wisdom. Can you tell from where I went to school, uni and what regiment I served in that I am not worth interviewing because my views on the industry aren't on my CV. Don't talk such tosh.
vg6 "your" idea may be to do as little as possible I actually enjoy work hence if I find myself finished then there is something that I can do to further increase my knowledge, progress or learn more to be better not go home. If you want an easy life rather than continuous professional development get a job which requires no learning and development do not lecture me on my responsibility and certainley I can assure you at the least you have an equal call to quote to me about honour but unless you really are of a very unusual background for these forums then I doubt that you are in a position to tell me or any who has commanded units in operational theatres about the nature of honour as your work ethic shows in your comments.
Next....
I think some of the more vociferous respondees should actually go back to my first post on this topic. I did not actually advocate or even show a desire to work for free. I stated that IF and ONLY IF it was the only way to get into the RHS ANYWHERE then I would do it because there are no other opportunities available. ANYWHERE = Chieftan, Seneca, King Air i.e really anywhere.
For clarification, the statement is nothing to do with getting RHS of a jet I just wanted (past tense) to get ANY flying job. If Flybe had interviewed me and asked me to pay for a TR and offered me the chance of a contract/job/trial at the end I would have signed in blood there and then.
The only reason this debate seems to have gone down the route of
becoming jet oriented is because High Wing, Scroggs, et al have made it so.
As for HWD and the others that seem to think that you just borrow the money for the type rating and then try and get by on £750 per month from FR don't be churlish. You borrow your usual monthly salary so say £3.5k take home per month for 12 months and then add the cost of transport, plus accomodation, misc and add all of this together this comes to over £50k investment and then you take home £55k per year so are back to your original salary. So you actually borrow £42 plus the type rating £18k i.e. £60k
To add to the £60-80k you have probably already built up from original fATPL course and the lack of money from the salary difference between a living wage and an instructing for a few years and there is the total probably nearer £120k of debt. So how do you pay it back? read on.....
People stop pretending £100,000 is a lot of money. You cannot even get a studio flat for £100,000. One of my best friends is a barrister he like all barrister's worked for... wait for it free!!! for his pupilage and funnily enough now earns the wage commensurate with the job. My wife a chartered accountant who did not quite work for free but got £11k as a trainee for her first year. She too had debts from university etc but didn't baulk at the opportunity strangely enough she now earns a comensurate wage for her job. Deloitte, Pricewaterhouse Coopers etc amongst toerhs pay £20k as a training salary now. Why? They could not get enough applicants of sufficient quality through the door. When this happens in aviation then our wages will reflect it, for now they don't its called a free market. Back to the money...
Any 3 bed semi average £250,000 (in the south before the screams start) can expect to grow by 40-50k in equity every 3-4 years so after oh say 10 years of paying an extra £500 per month on your mortgage you have made the money back in equity alone. This is hardly what is described above as crippling debt now is it. Then all salary can be devoted to school fees, holidays and pensions as required. This is not the scenario being described above.
Lets be honest the guy who sold you your last mobile phone takes home £40k a year, the guy managing McDonalds take home £35k it is not difficult to make enough money to pay back this sort of debt and this is with a 3 bed semi. So unless you really need the 5 bed detached with pool in Gerrards Cross I think that my wife and I are not quite on the poverty line yet.
You can spend £30k on a new car, £5k on a decent skiing holiday so let's not pretend that £100k of debt for a lifetime qualification is so massive an investment that I and others shall be hanging around King's Cross with a sign saying get it here to raise extra cash.
I am sure from my posts that it is clear that I wish to have a long and full career in aviation I have no intention of spending my life working for nothing but Scroggs et al believes that I am on some campaign to get thier Ts&Cs demolished. The chap who spoke about standing shoulder to shoulder should then agree that he should be standing shoulder to shoulder with me and others now to get fair selection rather than a pecuniary based system but until that happens if anyone has a better suggestion for getting a job please do tell us all and end this debate.
Scroggs I did not make the system, I reiterate that you are senior enough in it use your voice to change it. I just take what is there and I as I keep saying have a right to take every opportunity presented. If this means that I need to have Redsnails career path or work in the North Pole and work from larger to larger aircraft then I AM HAPPY TO DO IT. There are however NO OTHER opportunites out there. So address that. NOT that I am willing to take the only thing available to me. I have just as much (no more, no less) right as you to earn a living from flying.
Seems a pretty good deal compared to working for Flybe, had they ever interviewed me, for £22k for 3 yrs by which time the only winner would be the official receiver.
Sir Pratt and Jonty perhaps you would like to elaborate rather than just posting a sneer. If you email or apply you get no reply and or nothing followed by no interviews. So hence doorstepping is the next logical step, though you seem to believe that you know the finer points of negotiation I would like to see your first attempts a negotiating in Bosnia with a rifle in your face. Like those who cannot see the difference between passion and the ability to fly safely you run the risk of colouring your judgement by assuming that I have the narrowness of thought that you are exhibiting with your raposte.
May I suggest that you spot the difference between the two and actually counter my argument rather than make blanket assumptions and statements like "I can see why he hasn't got an interview" Can you? what are those reasons? Share them with the forum so that we can all benefit from your wisdom. Can you tell from where I went to school, uni and what regiment I served in that I am not worth interviewing because my views on the industry aren't on my CV. Don't talk such tosh.
vg6 "your" idea may be to do as little as possible I actually enjoy work hence if I find myself finished then there is something that I can do to further increase my knowledge, progress or learn more to be better not go home. If you want an easy life rather than continuous professional development get a job which requires no learning and development do not lecture me on my responsibility and certainley I can assure you at the least you have an equal call to quote to me about honour but unless you really are of a very unusual background for these forums then I doubt that you are in a position to tell me or any who has commanded units in operational theatres about the nature of honour as your work ethic shows in your comments.
Next....
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Ah VT,
You say you've followed some of my career. Fair enough.
After I finished my instructor rating I got a part time instructor's position immediately. When I was ready for a full time flying position I shifted every thing about 3,000km to go for that opportunity.
I waited about 5 months for my full time flying position. Was it on a B737, no. Was it on a Dash 8? No. It was on a C207. $A20,000 pa.
For my jet job I travelled about 10,000km from "home" to get it after flying a Shed for a year or so. Oh, and to get that flying job I took a job in Ops.
No opportunities? If you want to fly for Ryanair, fine but please do not fly for free.
You say you've followed some of my career. Fair enough.
After I finished my instructor rating I got a part time instructor's position immediately. When I was ready for a full time flying position I shifted every thing about 3,000km to go for that opportunity.
I waited about 5 months for my full time flying position. Was it on a B737, no. Was it on a Dash 8? No. It was on a C207. $A20,000 pa.
For my jet job I travelled about 10,000km from "home" to get it after flying a Shed for a year or so. Oh, and to get that flying job I took a job in Ops.
No opportunities? If you want to fly for Ryanair, fine but please do not fly for free.
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"The chap who spoke about standing shoulder to shoulder should then agree that he should be standing "shoulder to shoulder" with me and others now to get fair selection rather than a pecuniary based system but until that happens if anyone has a better suggestion for getting a job please do tell us all and end this debate"
Yes vortex, I am the 'chap' who said that. Standing 'shoulder to shoulder' with your work colleagues means more to me than working for free in order to achieve a job, especially after spending huge amounts on training.
Work and support your future colleagues. People offering their services for free may have a negative effect on future and existing Terms and Conditions, contracts etc.
You are worth more, than offering your services for free to ANY company. I sympathise with you, 100%, but there are many, many other people in the same boat and with type ratings etc etc etc. Have you exhausted all avenues that may help you, secure a position?
Could you enlighten me, on why you think, you have not been successful?
Yes vortex, I am the 'chap' who said that. Standing 'shoulder to shoulder' with your work colleagues means more to me than working for free in order to achieve a job, especially after spending huge amounts on training.
Work and support your future colleagues. People offering their services for free may have a negative effect on future and existing Terms and Conditions, contracts etc.
You are worth more, than offering your services for free to ANY company. I sympathise with you, 100%, but there are many, many other people in the same boat and with type ratings etc etc etc. Have you exhausted all avenues that may help you, secure a position?
Could you enlighten me, on why you think, you have not been successful?
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...anyone know of a roofing contractor I can get to fix my roof for FREE? Thought not, only pilots are dumb enough to do that...
Harry, flying for hire or reward, still with some self respect left.
Harry, flying for hire or reward, still with some self respect left.
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I have also been looking for the first job for some 3 years now with no luck. But given the choice of work for free or not - id rather stay doing what i do now than work for free. That attitude of work for free just stinks to me !!
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VT, commercial aviation is not the law or medicine. It is not suffering, and will not suffer, a lack of applicants. There are thousands of you wannabes clamouring for every 'starter' job. That is precisely why you are having to pay for type ratings and so on - the employer doesn't have to, because it's a buyer's market! That's also why certain 'jobs' exist that ask people to pay for the hours they fly, and others that simply pay unsurviveable salaries. There is no equivalent of the barrister's pupillage stage in aviation; reduced terms at the bottom of the pile will result in reduced terms at the top. Not for me, but for you, if and when you get there. Why? Well, I've covered that before. It's the way this particular market works, and has been working for the last 20 years or so. The days when this was a well-paid profession are over, and yet people are still crawling over each other to get flying jobs at any cost. You are a commodity, and your stock is reducing in value - much of that reduction is down to the irrational way that people covet this job and will do anything to get in.
Your financial illustration confuses me. You say that £100k is not a lot of money and then tell us that taking £22k pa from Flybe would have resulted in 'the official receiver' (I take it you mean bankruptcy?). That sounds like an unsupportable debt to me! Your £100k investment must be made to give a return, and that means you have a vested interest in pay and conditions in aviation slipping no further. Taking a low-paid (or no-pay) job is no way to do that; you just exacerbate the problem both for yourself individually and your peers. By my calculation, you need around £1400 a month just to repay your debt (10 years @ 7%). That represents a taxable salary of £21k before any other expenses are considered - including that house! To service your debt and cover your family's living expenses, you'll need at least £35k pa. That's not starter pay in any industry! £100K is a lot of debt when looked at in those terms. Did you do these calculations before you started down this road?
I don't know; the more you 'explain' your position, VT, the less I understand it! I suspect it stems from an inadequate or incomplete understanding of this industry on your part - and you're not alone in that. There are far too many wannabes who believe that they will be able to walk into a £40k+ job at some point, yet are prepared to work for little or nothing at that same job, not realising that by doing so they make that £40k job even less likely to happen!
Scroggs
Your financial illustration confuses me. You say that £100k is not a lot of money and then tell us that taking £22k pa from Flybe would have resulted in 'the official receiver' (I take it you mean bankruptcy?). That sounds like an unsupportable debt to me! Your £100k investment must be made to give a return, and that means you have a vested interest in pay and conditions in aviation slipping no further. Taking a low-paid (or no-pay) job is no way to do that; you just exacerbate the problem both for yourself individually and your peers. By my calculation, you need around £1400 a month just to repay your debt (10 years @ 7%). That represents a taxable salary of £21k before any other expenses are considered - including that house! To service your debt and cover your family's living expenses, you'll need at least £35k pa. That's not starter pay in any industry! £100K is a lot of debt when looked at in those terms. Did you do these calculations before you started down this road?
I don't know; the more you 'explain' your position, VT, the less I understand it! I suspect it stems from an inadequate or incomplete understanding of this industry on your part - and you're not alone in that. There are far too many wannabes who believe that they will be able to walk into a £40k+ job at some point, yet are prepared to work for little or nothing at that same job, not realising that by doing so they make that £40k job even less likely to happen!
Scroggs
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"as a result the only people who would get the job are the ones who really want it"
or those whose mummies and daddys paid for their training? It's idiots like this who will work for free that screw up the t & c's for everyone else!
or those whose mummies and daddys paid for their training? It's idiots like this who will work for free that screw up the t & c's for everyone else!
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Scrogss I shall make the financial illustration clearer.
Person X and their friend person Y have debts of £100k each and live in an avergage properties worth £250k. The properties have no equity as the orginal mortgage of £150 has been added to by SECURED borrowing of £100k so that X & Y can go from Zero to SSTR level and/or pay a bond.
So total debt for X & Y is now £250k each. Equity = 0 each
Mortgage payments = £1500pcm Secured borrowing payments = £1000
Total SECURED Debt per month = £2500
It is clear that more is needed re food, transport, bills, clothing, etc but we shall ignore that for this example as it does nothing to clarify it we assume that there is another income to deal with this. With me so far.
Both X & Y previously worked as underwater basket weavers for £3500 pcm
X goes to work for Flybe for £22k i.e. will therefore take home c. £1300 pcm. If X works for Flybe for 3 years to get 2000hrs TP exp and then trades up to BMI/Thomsonfly, etc on £45k
Year 1 = 15,600, Year 2 = 18,000, Year 3 = 20,000
Y goes to work for Ryanair. Now Y will take home £750 pcm for 3 months, £1050 for 3 months, £2000 for 6 months and thereafter £3000 pcm. Y now has 2,500hrs JAR25 experience to boot.
Year 1 = 17,400, Year 2 = 36,000, Year 3 = 45,000
At the start of yr 2 Y can pay the same mortgage and outgoings. that he/she originally could X on the other hand will not be able to for ANOTHER 2 years.
So after 3 years they are both fine with respect to salary however in the 3 years it has taken X to get back to a living wage X has lost the family home and gained a personal understanding of the Insolvency Act 1986, 1994, 2006 updates included.
Clever Y on the other hand worked for next to nothing for a year because he/she included in the £100k debt a provision to make good the loss of earnings incurred in taking such route.(i.e. borrowed another £20k as a salary substitute)
Clever Y also hedged their bets so should the route not work out they could go back to underwater basket weaving for £3500 pcm and not loose their home
It gets better because Y could sustain the loss for long enough to get to a self sustaining income Y benefits from the rise in equity of oh about £40 which further bolsters the recovery and is spent further reducing the debt/increasing the equity.
Even if Y had, wait for it, worked for free for that year, Y would still be better of at the end of the period because they retained the property and thus the ability to capitalise on the equity.
So back to the question. Did I do the sums before I took on the debt, errm well yes. As you said £35k MIN is about right in fact I would say it is closer to £40 to break even if you take into account having a life as well as the absolute minimum. You actually make my point for me very well by doing the sums for me!! You are right it is not starter pay in very many industries but unless you have not noticed I am not a starting at £35k I start at £17k and it is a year to 18 months down the road that we get to £36 and then another before we go back to a living wage the difference is that it is a reasonably sure bet to get there (as long as you keep your job) if not then back to under water basket weaving.
So we finally agree on something i.e. that working for Flybe et all gives you an unsupportable debt. That is why people say what the hell and take the SSTR route with FR especially seeing as Flybe don't actually seem to actually have any form of queue/list filter system other than ex-Scabair instructors.
flyboy1818 I agree with you completly on one hand. The apprenticeship idea is pretty good would certainley cut down those without the stomach for hard work and dedication. I am certainley under no illusion at all about how the aviation industry works.
On the other hand as for your good lady self. I cast no aspersion over her but she obviously does not work in London, or if she does her boss is laughing all the way to the pub because the basics for many phones sales roles with any experience over a year or so are frequently over £25k. There are innumerous sales jobs for phones, telesales etc which will happily earn you over £70k in you really want them.
Go to totaljobs, monster or jobsite type in sales and with the exception of brand new starters you find me a job under £20k in London/Home counties that any likely pilot would not qualifiy for (i.e a level, degree or equivalent educated) Our cleaner gets £11 per hour!! get real yourself!
Hopefully the financial madness of not going the SSTR route have now been clarified. Next complaint to be resolved?
Scroggs as you correctly point out times are changing and there is not guarantee that £55k Captains basics will be available IF I get their but if as you suggest I get there and it has fallen further then that's life. The world does not owe me a living I will get over it, adapt and retrain again and again and again if I have to but for now it does and until it is gone forever I have the same right as YOU to try to get there. Are you scared that I am willing to do more than you for the same money or that profession is becoming worth less.
We will get paid whatever the market will allow. If that happens to drop £30k for captains on promotion in the next decade then indeed it means that the future will not see me skiing in Verbier every year. I really am not so scared of the prospect that I am not going to find out so that you can..... I'm game to see what the future holds maybe it is you who is so worried about what the industry owes you that need to lambast me for taking the ONLY opportunity I had available to me.
Harry Wragg. Self respect yep know what that is it's that feeling I get when I realize the lucky escape I had from Exeter or Belfast for 3 years in the morning before I go flying like you for hire and reward The feeling you get from knowing that you took the most prudent and sensible route to protect you and yours future 
I can't help notice that v6g, Sir Pratt and Jonty have gone awfully quiet long night stop perhaps come on then get amongst it ladies and gents at least support Scroggs thank you for the PMs of support by the way keep them coming but I wish you would all post them in the open. You know who you are
Person X and their friend person Y have debts of £100k each and live in an avergage properties worth £250k. The properties have no equity as the orginal mortgage of £150 has been added to by SECURED borrowing of £100k so that X & Y can go from Zero to SSTR level and/or pay a bond.
So total debt for X & Y is now £250k each. Equity = 0 each
Mortgage payments = £1500pcm Secured borrowing payments = £1000
Total SECURED Debt per month = £2500
It is clear that more is needed re food, transport, bills, clothing, etc but we shall ignore that for this example as it does nothing to clarify it we assume that there is another income to deal with this. With me so far.
Both X & Y previously worked as underwater basket weavers for £3500 pcm
X goes to work for Flybe for £22k i.e. will therefore take home c. £1300 pcm. If X works for Flybe for 3 years to get 2000hrs TP exp and then trades up to BMI/Thomsonfly, etc on £45k
Year 1 = 15,600, Year 2 = 18,000, Year 3 = 20,000
Y goes to work for Ryanair. Now Y will take home £750 pcm for 3 months, £1050 for 3 months, £2000 for 6 months and thereafter £3000 pcm. Y now has 2,500hrs JAR25 experience to boot.
Year 1 = 17,400, Year 2 = 36,000, Year 3 = 45,000
At the start of yr 2 Y can pay the same mortgage and outgoings. that he/she originally could X on the other hand will not be able to for ANOTHER 2 years.
So after 3 years they are both fine with respect to salary however in the 3 years it has taken X to get back to a living wage X has lost the family home and gained a personal understanding of the Insolvency Act 1986, 1994, 2006 updates included.
Clever Y on the other hand worked for next to nothing for a year because he/she included in the £100k debt a provision to make good the loss of earnings incurred in taking such route.(i.e. borrowed another £20k as a salary substitute)
Clever Y also hedged their bets so should the route not work out they could go back to underwater basket weaving for £3500 pcm and not loose their home It gets better because Y could sustain the loss for long enough to get to a self sustaining income Y benefits from the rise in equity of oh about £40 which further bolsters the recovery and is spent further reducing the debt/increasing the equity.
Even if Y had, wait for it, worked for free for that year, Y would still be better of at the end of the period because they retained the property and thus the ability to capitalise on the equity.
So back to the question. Did I do the sums before I took on the debt, errm well yes. As you said £35k MIN is about right in fact I would say it is closer to £40 to break even if you take into account having a life as well as the absolute minimum. You actually make my point for me very well by doing the sums for me!! You are right it is not starter pay in very many industries but unless you have not noticed I am not a starting at £35k I start at £17k and it is a year to 18 months down the road that we get to £36 and then another before we go back to a living wage the difference is that it is a reasonably sure bet to get there (as long as you keep your job) if not then back to under water basket weaving.
So we finally agree on something i.e. that working for Flybe et all gives you an unsupportable debt. That is why people say what the hell and take the SSTR route with FR especially seeing as Flybe don't actually seem to actually have any form of queue/list filter system other than ex-Scabair instructors.
flyboy1818 I agree with you completly on one hand. The apprenticeship idea is pretty good would certainley cut down those without the stomach for hard work and dedication. I am certainley under no illusion at all about how the aviation industry works.
On the other hand as for your good lady self. I cast no aspersion over her but she obviously does not work in London, or if she does her boss is laughing all the way to the pub because the basics for many phones sales roles with any experience over a year or so are frequently over £25k. There are innumerous sales jobs for phones, telesales etc which will happily earn you over £70k in you really want them.
Go to totaljobs, monster or jobsite type in sales and with the exception of brand new starters you find me a job under £20k in London/Home counties that any likely pilot would not qualifiy for (i.e a level, degree or equivalent educated) Our cleaner gets £11 per hour!! get real yourself!
Hopefully the financial madness of not going the SSTR route have now been clarified. Next complaint to be resolved?
Scroggs as you correctly point out times are changing and there is not guarantee that £55k Captains basics will be available IF I get their but if as you suggest I get there and it has fallen further then that's life. The world does not owe me a living I will get over it, adapt and retrain again and again and again if I have to but for now it does and until it is gone forever I have the same right as YOU to try to get there. Are you scared that I am willing to do more than you for the same money or that profession is becoming worth less.
We will get paid whatever the market will allow. If that happens to drop £30k for captains on promotion in the next decade then indeed it means that the future will not see me skiing in Verbier every year. I really am not so scared of the prospect that I am not going to find out so that you can..... I'm game to see what the future holds maybe it is you who is so worried about what the industry owes you that need to lambast me for taking the ONLY opportunity I had available to me.
Harry Wragg. Self respect yep know what that is it's that feeling I get when I realize the lucky escape I had from Exeter or Belfast for 3 years in the morning before I go flying like you for hire and reward
The feeling you get from knowing that you took the most prudent and sensible route to protect you and yours future I can't help notice that v6g, Sir Pratt and Jonty have gone awfully quiet long night stop perhaps come on then get amongst it ladies and gents at least support Scroggs thank you for the PMs of support by the way keep them coming but I wish you would all post them in the open. You know who you are
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While I am against working for free and also symphatise with VT's position I have tried to be neutral in this and can fully understand what he's gone through and its not too hard to see why he made that decision. I know a lot of people wore than would like to admit going through the sstr route.
Even easyjet does it in a different way for cadets. With CTC you get 1k a month for six months.
I decided to train to be a pilot to fufill a childhood dream and was under no illusions about the sacrifices involved. If I wanted to make money I could have stayed in properties which is how I was able to pay fopr this course in the first place. However I have managed to keep my total debts excluding mortgage to 22k.
As scroggs as stated it is unethical to offer your services for free however in capitalist societies like ours there's something called market forces. To those who want to fly to make money I will advice you to look at other proffessions like IT. You can train to be a server engineer and earn over a a thousand pounds a week with less than two months training. Better still if you want an easy way to earn money go and become a roll out enginer (Software installation) you are looking at 4k a month and all you have to do is put disc into brand new computers and follow simple steps something most people on this forums can do.
If you want to do the above wait a couple of months after microsoft vista bugs have been fixed and a lot of city banks want to upgrade thier computer systems. You can work for seven months and afford to take the rest of the year off.
I am mentioning this becauce the above industries value thier business and will go to extra ordinary lenghts to make sure it runs smoothly. A computer crash in morgan stanley will cost them millions in a matter of hours and in the airline industry planes sitting on the ground without pilots to fly them will be a disaster for any airline company. While I fully appreciate scroggs point of view and understands his disgust with what he sees happening compared to what it was when he joined. Those in the industry are in a far better position to change the terms and conditions than those of us coming into it.
I will really be worried as a captain constantly flying with first officers who have a huge amount of debt that is sometimes enough to cause pshycological problems in an individual. A lot of people here mention 100k in my eight years of working in mental hospitals I've seen people have a mental breakdown with a lot less debt. This includes bank managers, doctors, senior nurses, yes! being admitted into mental institutions.
Having not been selected by ryanair myself I am prepearing to go Africa where you dont have to pay to fly and you actually get your type rating paid for. I have a lot of friends flying there and they earn more as first officers (Flying for British oil companies in west Africa) than a lot of turbo prop capts here. You also get the fact that life is cheaper(not literaly). No way will people over there work for free the Government will not stand for it let alone the workers.
I have applied so far to a couple of companies and have five rejection letters with my name on it . Like VT said some dont even bother replying like flybe and bmi baby and not just to me but a lot of others. You then find out later that these companies went to meet an integrated school to ask them to supply them with twenty pilots. From my obseravtion its no longer enough to be a good pilot you need deep pockets to get your foot on the job ladder except you're very lucky to go to the right school and know the right people.
Its a good thing that a lot of flying is now automated I can imagine a
situation whereby a first officer will have to take controls in an emergency but his mind is pretty occupied with financial problems and he's not able to concentrate. It will be interesting to see a panorama documentary on the state of this industry.
However like someone mentioned earlier I will like to see what is done in North America and Canada done here you cannot apply for commercial job until you reach a certain number of hours usually over a thousand this will weed out those who have no stomach for hard work and those trying to rely on bank of parents to shove them into jet jobs. A couple of companies have raised thier hours for cadets and first officers becauce they had problems with training low hour pilots. A friend returned from Canada recently where his friend run a flying school and was told nobody there will hire you to fly a kingair until you had at least 1200 hours. He was told that by then at least you know how to land a plane.
I dont know how the lobbying industry works in this country if theres any in aviation I think reasonable people at the CAA should stop this practice of cadets working for free. Not only is it unethical it is unhealthy giving the level of debt incured during the training something that is not yet apparent until God forbid a crash happens and an investigation uncovers the background and discovers how the current working conditions have contributed to it.
Vortex thing I wish you all the best and like the old saying goes If you can't beat them you join them.
Even easyjet does it in a different way for cadets. With CTC you get 1k a month for six months.
I decided to train to be a pilot to fufill a childhood dream and was under no illusions about the sacrifices involved. If I wanted to make money I could have stayed in properties which is how I was able to pay fopr this course in the first place. However I have managed to keep my total debts excluding mortgage to 22k.
As scroggs as stated it is unethical to offer your services for free however in capitalist societies like ours there's something called market forces. To those who want to fly to make money I will advice you to look at other proffessions like IT. You can train to be a server engineer and earn over a a thousand pounds a week with less than two months training. Better still if you want an easy way to earn money go and become a roll out enginer (Software installation) you are looking at 4k a month and all you have to do is put disc into brand new computers and follow simple steps something most people on this forums can do.
If you want to do the above wait a couple of months after microsoft vista bugs have been fixed and a lot of city banks want to upgrade thier computer systems. You can work for seven months and afford to take the rest of the year off.
I am mentioning this becauce the above industries value thier business and will go to extra ordinary lenghts to make sure it runs smoothly. A computer crash in morgan stanley will cost them millions in a matter of hours and in the airline industry planes sitting on the ground without pilots to fly them will be a disaster for any airline company. While I fully appreciate scroggs point of view and understands his disgust with what he sees happening compared to what it was when he joined. Those in the industry are in a far better position to change the terms and conditions than those of us coming into it.
I will really be worried as a captain constantly flying with first officers who have a huge amount of debt that is sometimes enough to cause pshycological problems in an individual. A lot of people here mention 100k in my eight years of working in mental hospitals I've seen people have a mental breakdown with a lot less debt. This includes bank managers, doctors, senior nurses, yes! being admitted into mental institutions.
Having not been selected by ryanair myself I am prepearing to go Africa where you dont have to pay to fly and you actually get your type rating paid for. I have a lot of friends flying there and they earn more as first officers (Flying for British oil companies in west Africa) than a lot of turbo prop capts here. You also get the fact that life is cheaper(not literaly). No way will people over there work for free the Government will not stand for it let alone the workers.
I have applied so far to a couple of companies and have five rejection letters with my name on it . Like VT said some dont even bother replying like flybe and bmi baby and not just to me but a lot of others. You then find out later that these companies went to meet an integrated school to ask them to supply them with twenty pilots. From my obseravtion its no longer enough to be a good pilot you need deep pockets to get your foot on the job ladder except you're very lucky to go to the right school and know the right people.
Its a good thing that a lot of flying is now automated I can imagine a
situation whereby a first officer will have to take controls in an emergency but his mind is pretty occupied with financial problems and he's not able to concentrate. It will be interesting to see a panorama documentary on the state of this industry.
However like someone mentioned earlier I will like to see what is done in North America and Canada done here you cannot apply for commercial job until you reach a certain number of hours usually over a thousand this will weed out those who have no stomach for hard work and those trying to rely on bank of parents to shove them into jet jobs. A couple of companies have raised thier hours for cadets and first officers becauce they had problems with training low hour pilots. A friend returned from Canada recently where his friend run a flying school and was told nobody there will hire you to fly a kingair until you had at least 1200 hours. He was told that by then at least you know how to land a plane.
I dont know how the lobbying industry works in this country if theres any in aviation I think reasonable people at the CAA should stop this practice of cadets working for free. Not only is it unethical it is unhealthy giving the level of debt incured during the training something that is not yet apparent until God forbid a crash happens and an investigation uncovers the background and discovers how the current working conditions have contributed to it.
Vortex thing I wish you all the best and like the old saying goes If you can't beat them you join them.
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Monkeys won't work for free, they get peanuts. Seriously though when people ask me should I become a pilot I always tell that you may have to spend 70k in order to earn 18k pa. Thats the reality. Anybody who wants to become a pilot, do your research, don't believe the flying school hype !!!!!!
Regards P.
Regards P.