'Will work for free'
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working for nothing?
I'm sure there's a word for that....hmm.....let me think........oh!
.........A SLAVE. May be he's into S&M?
Anyway, buying a type rating after being offered a job with long term prospects is an investment, but this is down right stupid and degrading!
However, if you have a ppl and are trying to build up hours genius!
I'm sure there's a word for that....hmm.....let me think........oh!
.........A SLAVE. May be he's into S&M?
Anyway, buying a type rating after being offered a job with long term prospects is an investment, but this is down right stupid and degrading!
However, if you have a ppl and are trying to build up hours genius!
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For what it's worth, there are various levels of working for free (or below fair market rates). I include in that category, pilots who have retired with a pension and who just want to "top up" their money. While I can understand the sentiment, they are also depressing the pay of the rest of us who are trying to work towards having a decent retirement - something that is getting more and more difficult.
Working for free at a junior level is however totally counterproductive and stems from a complete inability to make rational decisions on the part of people deluded with "love" of a career. An possibly lacking the skills as well.
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And by what do you base this flippant comment on? no offence
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On the contrary - there remains a large shortage of experienced captains, trainers and examiners that these retirees fulfil - if that were not the case, Emirates and Cathay rates would be far below what they are for the same people.
Working for free at a junior level is however totally counterproductive and stems from a complete inability to make rational decisions on the part of people deluded with "love" of a career. An possibly lacking the skills as well.
Working for free at a junior level is however totally counterproductive and stems from a complete inability to make rational decisions on the part of people deluded with "love" of a career. An possibly lacking the skills as well.
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Guys,
NO ONE SHOULD WORK FOR FREE!
The bottom line is if there are people out there willing to do this, it is de-valuing our jobs! The young/old inexperienced pilot should do an APPRENTICESHIP!
Training is a whole lot of fun, but it doesn't fully prepare you for the outside world of commercial aviation! Having done a Mechanical Engineering Apprenticeship many years ago before my flying life, it sey me up with the experience´s and knowledge to go out and get a job and be comfortable in that role.....
For a young/old inexperienced pilot to be let loose on a large commercial jet straight out of training, and working for free DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!
It is not Rocket Science! All we need is some kind of Apprenticeship structure where as a new Pilot is´serving his time´, and not for FREE!
BALPA should and could get involved in this! Any takers from BALPA?.....And please not the usual excuses, they don´t have the time, resources etc...
-----------------
endofeng
NO ONE SHOULD WORK FOR FREE!
The bottom line is if there are people out there willing to do this, it is de-valuing our jobs! The young/old inexperienced pilot should do an APPRENTICESHIP!
Training is a whole lot of fun, but it doesn't fully prepare you for the outside world of commercial aviation! Having done a Mechanical Engineering Apprenticeship many years ago before my flying life, it sey me up with the experience´s and knowledge to go out and get a job and be comfortable in that role.....
For a young/old inexperienced pilot to be let loose on a large commercial jet straight out of training, and working for free DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!
It is not Rocket Science! All we need is some kind of Apprenticeship structure where as a new Pilot is´serving his time´, and not for FREE!
BALPA should and could get involved in this! Any takers from BALPA?.....And please not the usual excuses, they don´t have the time, resources etc...
-----------------
endofeng
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The future!?
Hi guys and girls,
Try this on for a thought. I have flown for airlines for over three years. With more than 1600hour JAR 25 and over 20tons, working for a flag carrier- I am told by my employer that I will remain on the T/Ps untill they run out of no-timers that pay their own ratings on our 73s.
Ten new F/O's started September 1st. When they have enough hours, they get upgraded to T/P Commanders- then back to the 73s.
As they need experienced F/Os on the "demanding" T/P operations with the no T/P experienced commanders, we are NOT accepted on the jets, even if we did pay our own ratings.
As the company needs us as T/P F/Os.
The bond I signed is still running for another two years, and it does not reduce as time goes by.
Needless to say, the jet jocks get much better pay then we do..
Wish I had bought a rating-
The diffence in pay, would have paid back the rating already. With no bond!!
F... I am Screwed arn't I??
Or- So says the Char-Char
Try this on for a thought. I have flown for airlines for over three years. With more than 1600hour JAR 25 and over 20tons, working for a flag carrier- I am told by my employer that I will remain on the T/Ps untill they run out of no-timers that pay their own ratings on our 73s.
Ten new F/O's started September 1st. When they have enough hours, they get upgraded to T/P Commanders- then back to the 73s.
As they need experienced F/Os on the "demanding" T/P operations with the no T/P experienced commanders, we are NOT accepted on the jets, even if we did pay our own ratings.
As the company needs us as T/P F/Os.The bond I signed is still running for another two years, and it does not reduce as time goes by.
Needless to say, the jet jocks get much better pay then we do..
Wish I had bought a rating-
The diffence in pay, would have paid back the rating already. With no bond!!F... I am Screwed arn't I??
Or- So says the Char-Char
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Blackcoffeenosugar, you're being screwed alright, but not by your own decision to not buy a rating. You're being screwed by our low-time heroes who think buying a TR is the way forward. You are, very regrettably, a case study in how the short-sighted are ruining the very profession they claim to love.
The issue of airlines who prefer to fly heavy metal with zero experience guys in preference to those moving up the ladder is one for another post.
Just athought though, you say you are bonded but on much lower pay than jets. So why not try to move onto jets elsewhere, take the hit on the bond, but earn the bigger bucks?
The issue of airlines who prefer to fly heavy metal with zero experience guys in preference to those moving up the ladder is one for another post.
Just athought though, you say you are bonded but on much lower pay than jets. So why not try to move onto jets elsewhere, take the hit on the bond, but earn the bigger bucks?
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considering a t/r on a eavy jet costs pretty much the same , It would be better to start with a jet t/r like A340, B767?
...
simjoke,
that's a good one...why not do like in church, with a basket 20 minutes before landing "your donation,copilot bless you".if every pax give 2-3 euro, copilot can make a good living.
...
simjoke,
that's a good one...why not do like in church, with a basket 20 minutes before landing "your donation,copilot bless you".if every pax give 2-3 euro, copilot can make a good living.
Last edited by dartagnan; 2nd Sep 2006 at 17:50.
ok so we have similar discussions about being paid to work on days off - i try and put it in perspective like this ....
the combined salary of capt and f/o is say , £100,000
we each do 600 hrs per yr
that makes us £160 per hr
about the same as a call out charge for aplumber
cheaper than the cost of a club class meal
we are the cheapest thing on the a/c and it may have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and cost thousands of dollars an hour to operate , but unless you pay the cost of an extra club meal -it doesnt go anywhere
the combined salary of capt and f/o is say , £100,000
we each do 600 hrs per yr
that makes us £160 per hr
about the same as a call out charge for aplumber
cheaper than the cost of a club class meal
we are the cheapest thing on the a/c and it may have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and cost thousands of dollars an hour to operate , but unless you pay the cost of an extra club meal -it doesnt go anywhere
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Actually no, it makes the Captain about £108 and the F/O about £ 58
However given that the F/O will "work for free", good news, the Captain gets the lot !
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My Advert
Hi,
Well I did not think that my advert would cause such a heated debate. I thought that I should say a few words in my defence to those who have been voicing their opinion.
No one wants to work for free, however if people are willing to cover expenses allowing me to build hours then why not. I was not looking for a job without pay it was a way of marketing myself in the hope that someone might take notice. And they have, I have had a few offers from people and have recently been offered a PAID job flying turbo props!!!!!!!
The chap who invited me for an interview thought it was very bold to put an add like that in Flight International and was impressed, so he offered me a job.
So I am pleased that I put the add in.
There are too many posts here to comment on but I needed some hours and have had lots of offers to fly with people and I had the offer of some air charter work so there were people who saw through the advert and understood it. I only said "willing to work for free" not will work for free!!! big difference and so what if I got a few hours for nothing.
That is all I have to say on this subject!
Well I did not think that my advert would cause such a heated debate. I thought that I should say a few words in my defence to those who have been voicing their opinion.
No one wants to work for free, however if people are willing to cover expenses allowing me to build hours then why not. I was not looking for a job without pay it was a way of marketing myself in the hope that someone might take notice. And they have, I have had a few offers from people and have recently been offered a PAID job flying turbo props!!!!!!!
The chap who invited me for an interview thought it was very bold to put an add like that in Flight International and was impressed, so he offered me a job.
So I am pleased that I put the add in.
There are too many posts here to comment on but I needed some hours and have had lots of offers to fly with people and I had the offer of some air charter work so there were people who saw through the advert and understood it. I only said "willing to work for free" not will work for free!!! big difference and so what if I got a few hours for nothing.
That is all I have to say on this subject!
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Try this on for a thought. I have flown for airlines for over three years. With more than 1600hour JAR 25 and over 20tons, working for a flag carrier- I am told by my employer that I will remain on the T/Ps untill they run out of no-timers that pay their own ratings on our 73s.
Ten new F/O's started September 1st. When they have enough hours, they get upgraded to T/P Commanders- then back to the 73s.
As they need experienced F/Os on the "demanding" T/P operations with the no T/P experienced commanders, we are NOT accepted on the jets, even if we did pay our own ratings. As the company needs us as T/P F/Os.
The bond I signed is still running for another two years, and it does not reduce as time goes by.
Needless to say, the jet jocks get much better pay then we do..
Wish I had bought a rating- The diffence in pay, would have paid back the rating already. With no bond!!
F... I am Screwed arn't I??
Or- So says the Char-Char
Ten new F/O's started September 1st. When they have enough hours, they get upgraded to T/P Commanders- then back to the 73s.
As they need experienced F/Os on the "demanding" T/P operations with the no T/P experienced commanders, we are NOT accepted on the jets, even if we did pay our own ratings.
As the company needs us as T/P F/Os.The bond I signed is still running for another two years, and it does not reduce as time goes by.
Needless to say, the jet jocks get much better pay then we do..
Wish I had bought a rating-
The diffence in pay, would have paid back the rating already. With no bond!!F... I am Screwed arn't I??
Or- So says the Char-Char
Ok. I do not often post on PPrune, but felt a need this time.
Problem 1. YOU HAVE A JOB! Be thankful. I have 2000 hours with FAA and JAA licenses and the debt worthy of a small nation, but still after more than 1 year of looking noone will even take me for interview. I compete with lowtimers buying typeratings as well. So grow up and get on with your job and stop complaining.
Problem 2. YOU feel the company is not promoting you! Well the answer to your problem is simple. Pilots Organize in the company, like a Union, thats the only way you will get a saying in what the company does. Some companies do not hire direct entry captains, due to pressure from internal pilots, so what has to change is the company philosophy and they have to feel pressure from the pilots. DO NOT BLAME THE SELF SPONCERED LOW TIMERS, THEY ONLY DO IT BECAUSE IT MIGTH GIVE THEM A JOB.
All us pilots without jobs and money for typeratings, we depend on the help from our fellow pilots already in a job in the industry. We simply cannot get a chance unless you guys start doing something about the hireing process in your companies. Correct me if im wrong, but to me it seems like noone cares anyway, unless it affects their own opportunities?
So if you think you are "screwed" take a long hard look at my life and the many others in my situation.
Edinburgh, for a little while longer.
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Responsibility
Having had my apprenticeship via the military I consider myself fortunate not to have been in the position many aspiring pilots find themselves in today.
My post is really aimed at the pilots already established in a flying job - it is your responsibility to ensure the T and C's for new joiners are not eroded. The company should certainly be stopped from taking on new pilots if they have no intention of paying them.
Our BALPA CC was able to stand up to management and decline a reduction in FATPL / new joiners T and C's and I'm proud that this was done even though we probably suffered a smaller payrise ourselves. Although the Company beancounters don't yet see it - this will be good for the Company. Fewer FOs will treat the Company as a stepping stone to bigger jets / Flag carriers, retention will improve, training will reduce, roster disruption reduce, happier pilots. I'm not suggesting that this will be an overnight phenomenon but I think our CC took a step in the right direction.
We need to take responsibility for changing the mindset of the management from short term cost saving to long term investment and that starts by saying no to exploitation of the new joiners in our respective companies.
My post is really aimed at the pilots already established in a flying job - it is your responsibility to ensure the T and C's for new joiners are not eroded. The company should certainly be stopped from taking on new pilots if they have no intention of paying them.
Our BALPA CC was able to stand up to management and decline a reduction in FATPL / new joiners T and C's and I'm proud that this was done even though we probably suffered a smaller payrise ourselves. Although the Company beancounters don't yet see it - this will be good for the Company. Fewer FOs will treat the Company as a stepping stone to bigger jets / Flag carriers, retention will improve, training will reduce, roster disruption reduce, happier pilots. I'm not suggesting that this will be an overnight phenomenon but I think our CC took a step in the right direction.
We need to take responsibility for changing the mindset of the management from short term cost saving to long term investment and that starts by saying no to exploitation of the new joiners in our respective companies.
Last edited by Looker; 5th Sep 2006 at 10:16. Reason: spooling
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Dear Edinburgh
Edinburgh - If you want a job here, PM me.. The company loves to hire through recommandations from employees.
Here is what I want in return:
1. You move here (former Soviet Union) and sign a bond for approx. £11K
and three years. The bond does not reduce. Roster is 5-6days on 1-2 days off. Late check-out every singel time (between 20.00-23.30 LT), and early check in (between 0500-0725 LT) If you want to travel home, you pay the tickets and travel on your days off.
Your roster is by no means stable, even your days off are changed at any time. In your roster you'll have standbys instead of days off, if they can not use you. Standbys are not paid, but if you want them as days off you take from your annual 28 days off (all included), or get unpaid leave (20% of your gross pay deducted per day) You'll fly on average 43 hours per month.
2. You pay for license and medical upkeep + do any and all paperwork and traveling required on your days off.
3. You take home £1K per month and pay your rent here (on average £350 plus expences) pay the bills you need at home and live here of the rest. Inflation rate is 7.5% p.a. Your salary increases by just under 5% per year.
4. You talk to the pilot union (yes we have one, and we are transnational) and explain to the senior captains running the union why their ideas of individual salary negotiations are not so good, and that they should have elections for the posts in the union not just have the president appoint who ever he wants for as long as he wants.
5th but not least you remind me every day that I should be happy that I have a flying job, and that I should grow up- Never mind the no hour new commers that pay a rating and fly the shiny jets. Supplying the company with a cheaper option than a career progression for us.
I converted the money into GBP for you, to make it easier. I spent two years of paid work (not flying) before I landed my first flying job. And I am so happy I staid on my high horse and did not stoop to paying my own rating.
Ps. to all others reading this, these were not the T&C's promised in our interviews- We were promised a land of milk and honey and less than a year to command or jet. We knew that there was a union, but not that they were bought. It has all just changed along the way, like our FTLs. And in this country, the big companies don't have to follow the employment contracts - or even the countrys labour law. I can not wait to get out!
Here is what I want in return:
1. You move here (former Soviet Union) and sign a bond for approx. £11K
and three years. The bond does not reduce. Roster is 5-6days on 1-2 days off. Late check-out every singel time (between 20.00-23.30 LT), and early check in (between 0500-0725 LT) If you want to travel home, you pay the tickets and travel on your days off.
Your roster is by no means stable, even your days off are changed at any time. In your roster you'll have standbys instead of days off, if they can not use you. Standbys are not paid, but if you want them as days off you take from your annual 28 days off (all included), or get unpaid leave (20% of your gross pay deducted per day) You'll fly on average 43 hours per month.
2. You pay for license and medical upkeep + do any and all paperwork and traveling required on your days off.
3. You take home £1K per month and pay your rent here (on average £350 plus expences) pay the bills you need at home and live here of the rest. Inflation rate is 7.5% p.a. Your salary increases by just under 5% per year.
4. You talk to the pilot union (yes we have one, and we are transnational) and explain to the senior captains running the union why their ideas of individual salary negotiations are not so good, and that they should have elections for the posts in the union not just have the president appoint who ever he wants for as long as he wants.
5th but not least you remind me every day that I should be happy that I have a flying job, and that I should grow up- Never mind the no hour new commers that pay a rating and fly the shiny jets. Supplying the company with a cheaper option than a career progression for us.
I converted the money into GBP for you, to make it easier. I spent two years of paid work (not flying) before I landed my first flying job. And I am so happy I staid on my high horse and did not stoop to paying my own rating.
Ps. to all others reading this, these were not the T&C's promised in our interviews- We were promised a land of milk and honey and less than a year to command or jet. We knew that there was a union, but not that they were bought. It has all just changed along the way, like our FTLs. And in this country, the big companies don't have to follow the employment contracts - or even the countrys labour law. I can not wait to get out!
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Dear Blackcoffeenosugar
Where do I send my CV?
Does not sound any worse than what I did for free as an M1 Visa flight instructor in Florida for 3 years. Well besides we did in average 90-100 hours of flying in a month and worked 6 days sometimes 7 days a week if you count in the paperwork we had to do on our days off, or being called in because someone was sick.
For me it seems like you just have a pretty regular flying job.
If you wanted to upgrade to captain, I believe you might have the hours to make this happen, so why not pay off your bond it might be a good option/investment for you to go and chase new challenges. It might be worth it and pay off in the end. Leave them if you are not content, teach them a lesson.
You cannot be the only F/O in this company with this problem, so maybe its time that you guys have a chat and a get together over a few beers and discuss how to move up within the company, but you have to show solidarity otherwise it will not work. If this is not possible, then do what I mentioned above.
Seriously, can you recommend me to your HR department, I would be more than happy. Actually I believe I am already registered there, that is if you fly the Fokker 50?
Hope you see my points and views as valid as well as I see your side of the story. Please send me a PM or e-mail me if you like.
Edinburgh
Where do I send my CV?
Does not sound any worse than what I did for free as an M1 Visa flight instructor in Florida for 3 years. Well besides we did in average 90-100 hours of flying in a month and worked 6 days sometimes 7 days a week if you count in the paperwork we had to do on our days off, or being called in because someone was sick.
For me it seems like you just have a pretty regular flying job.
If you wanted to upgrade to captain, I believe you might have the hours to make this happen, so why not pay off your bond it might be a good option/investment for you to go and chase new challenges. It might be worth it and pay off in the end. Leave them if you are not content, teach them a lesson.
You cannot be the only F/O in this company with this problem, so maybe its time that you guys have a chat and a get together over a few beers and discuss how to move up within the company, but you have to show solidarity otherwise it will not work. If this is not possible, then do what I mentioned above.
Seriously, can you recommend me to your HR department, I would be more than happy. Actually I believe I am already registered there, that is if you fly the Fokker 50?
Hope you see my points and views as valid as well as I see your side of the story. Please send me a PM or e-mail me if you like.
Edinburgh
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Dear Dartagnan.
If your question is directed to me, then my answer is NO!
The point I am making is what I have already explained in my first attention to this tread, that people just want a fair chance to get into the industry, and for some this means paying for a typerating.
But Looker really speaks the words that I wish more professional pilots out there would follow, see the quote below.
May I sugges that we all live up to your screenname and show a bit more "ALL FOR ONE, ONE FOR ALL" mentality. We need you guys to help us get jobs, by changing the companies hireing process. This will also benefit you in the end.
Edinburgh.
My post is really aimed at the pilots already established in a flying job - it is your responsibility to ensure the T and C's for new joiners are not eroded. The company should certainly be stopped from taking on new pilots if they have no intention of paying them.
Our BALPA CC was able to stand up to management and decline a reduction in FATPL / new joiners T and C's and I'm proud that this was done even though we probably suffered a smaller payrise ourselves. Although the Company beancounters don't yet see it - this will be good for the Company. Fewer FOs will treat the Company as a stepping stone to bigger jets / Flag carriers, retention will improve, training will reduce, roster disruption reduce, happier pilots. I'm not suggesting that this will be an overnight phenomenon but I think our CC took a step in the right direction.
We need to take responsibility for changing the mindset of the management from short term cost saving to long term investment and that starts by saying no to exploitation of the new joiners in our respective companies.
If your question is directed to me, then my answer is NO!
The point I am making is what I have already explained in my first attention to this tread, that people just want a fair chance to get into the industry, and for some this means paying for a typerating.
But Looker really speaks the words that I wish more professional pilots out there would follow, see the quote below.
May I sugges that we all live up to your screenname and show a bit more "ALL FOR ONE, ONE FOR ALL" mentality. We need you guys to help us get jobs, by changing the companies hireing process. This will also benefit you in the end.
Edinburgh.
My post is really aimed at the pilots already established in a flying job - it is your responsibility to ensure the T and C's for new joiners are not eroded. The company should certainly be stopped from taking on new pilots if they have no intention of paying them.
Our BALPA CC was able to stand up to management and decline a reduction in FATPL / new joiners T and C's and I'm proud that this was done even though we probably suffered a smaller payrise ourselves. Although the Company beancounters don't yet see it - this will be good for the Company. Fewer FOs will treat the Company as a stepping stone to bigger jets / Flag carriers, retention will improve, training will reduce, roster disruption reduce, happier pilots. I'm not suggesting that this will be an overnight phenomenon but I think our CC took a step in the right direction.
We need to take responsibility for changing the mindset of the management from short term cost saving to long term investment and that starts by saying no to exploitation of the new joiners in our respective companies.
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Tubbs,
This is no different from the non-aviation sector. Your 30K+ earners in media and other such areas have often made their start by internships where they practically pay, all after having to pay for a 3-5 year university course.
This isn't new, centuries old in fact: prove yourself to your employer and you will be rewarded with a position. In such a competitive market can you expect anything else? If there is such a demand for positions and so many perfectly capable pilots out there, it's it quite right that wages should lower? To enforce otherwise is wage fixing and protectionism.
If anything, this could increase the calibre of pilot that lands an airline job, cutting out those that aren't really interested or only doing it for the cash.
Maybe the devils advocate, but I'd like to hear the counter-argument.
This is no different from the non-aviation sector. Your 30K+ earners in media and other such areas have often made their start by internships where they practically pay, all after having to pay for a 3-5 year university course.
This isn't new, centuries old in fact: prove yourself to your employer and you will be rewarded with a position. In such a competitive market can you expect anything else? If there is such a demand for positions and so many perfectly capable pilots out there, it's it quite right that wages should lower? To enforce otherwise is wage fixing and protectionism.
If anything, this could increase the calibre of pilot that lands an airline job, cutting out those that aren't really interested or only doing it for the cash.
Maybe the devils advocate, but I'd like to hear the counter-argument.
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WTF... Work for free is the better way to make impossibile to others to find a good GA or Airline Job...
I Did once honestly but I'm not gonna do it anymore
best of luck to everyone aniway
Carmine
I Did once honestly but I'm not gonna do it anymore
best of luck to everyone aniway
Carmine