'Will work for free'
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VLJ aspect
Certain people who wish to operate VLJ aircraft in EU on PT operations, were very dismayed when it was pointed out that JAR OPS need two rated crew.
This person then suggested that the right hand seat would be filled by Pilots PAYING for the seat time.
Fly for free, takes on a whole new meaning.
specifics by PM only.
windy
This person then suggested that the right hand seat would be filled by Pilots PAYING for the seat time.
Fly for free, takes on a whole new meaning.
specifics by PM only.
windy
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Dictionary definition of the word 'job'
'job 1
n. 1. A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.'
I want paying for this type of work and see many so called 'jobs' advertised in the UK for pilots which don't in actual fact qualify as the above. If the advert specifies that the cost is £30,000 and you get your type rating and 400 hours flying, then it's not a job. Just a self funded training course which shouldn't be advertised as a job in the first place.
I wonder what the passengers would think if they knew that the FO up front was paying to have all of the responsibility of flying them to their destination, or in some cases doing it for free. They would think that there is something wrong with you.
There comes a time in any career where the buck stops and the company has to cough up for a fair days work, even if you do start on low pay. Crawling and sniffing up the companies ars* , paying them, working for free is not the way forward.
If everyone had morals and guts to refuse to pay for a type rating and the like then companies wouldn't have any choice but to revert back to how it used to be. As this profession continues to be devalued I doubt this is going to happen.
For me, I did my training and don't have a flying job. I've accepted that I may not get one in the current climate either as I am in my thirties. However, I have gone back to my old career for the moment and if I don't get a flying job then I am still satisfied that I got my professional licence.
I'm not going to contribute to the devaluation of a career that will ultimately only put me in more debt.
Knew of a person conducting jump ops for free to get hours. Hell, I even did it to crack the 400 insurance level myself. Screw that now. Besides promoting an air of "if there's one who'll do it there's got to be more", they planted on a hot day with a full load and no insurance cover. Not even 20, dead and nothing to show for it.
is your copilot paying to work?
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If he does his job and gives a hundred percent thats what matters! Most captains can tell straight away by a persons attitude if indeed that person "wants" or "thinks" he should be in the front right seat.
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Hahahahaahhaha
BBT dont judge everyone by your own standards. You make it seem like there is some naivety on my part in accepting the terms and conditions of my position with FR.
Let me make it clear that there is none. I fully understand that having paid entirely for my type rating I may still have no job in a days time, a months time or a years time. I shall also answer Pressman and Aloue here too.
If I get canned then it is because I did not work hard enough, was not good enough or did not fit in well enough. Why is this so hard for you to believe. I come from a background where you step up to the plate and take your chances. I am happy to gamble my entire family's savings, everything I have ever worked for, my home and everyone I know for the chance to find out if I am in the right place. If I am not then it is because of the above not someone elses fault.
Will I say the same in a years time if they throw me out on my ear, errm yep because this is life and sh1t happens. It's how you cope with the downs that defines you; everyone is going to be happy when it is all going their way. I've had worse, seen worse and been worse and the industry still does not owe me a living.
You may ask yourself why I am so willing to happily risk it all well that is simple. I think it is worth it and I would ask you why you are not willing to risk everything you have and /or are if you love it so much?
Pressman on Pay
Re pay yes there is an increase in the basic the increase is 300 Euros a month but that is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Having given up a very well paid job to do this I am more than aware that the pay is poor. I never said it wasn't!! I said I know and I don't care because I get to fly 738s. Frankly if they didn't pay me at all I would still be there (and no I can't afford it) Well over £100k in debt and frankly don't care it is only money and I will swop all of it to fly the line happily. I get more in debt every day with FR but I wake up before the alarm clock every morning because I get to go flying.
If there was no contract I would still be there so stop second guessing poeple like me it's called taking a risk, try it
Let me make it clear that there is none. I fully understand that having paid entirely for my type rating I may still have no job in a days time, a months time or a years time. I shall also answer Pressman and Aloue here too.
If I get canned then it is because I did not work hard enough, was not good enough or did not fit in well enough. Why is this so hard for you to believe. I come from a background where you step up to the plate and take your chances. I am happy to gamble my entire family's savings, everything I have ever worked for, my home and everyone I know for the chance to find out if I am in the right place. If I am not then it is because of the above not someone elses fault.
Will I say the same in a years time if they throw me out on my ear, errm yep because this is life and sh1t happens. It's how you cope with the downs that defines you; everyone is going to be happy when it is all going their way. I've had worse, seen worse and been worse and the industry still does not owe me a living.
You may ask yourself why I am so willing to happily risk it all well that is simple. I think it is worth it and I would ask you why you are not willing to risk everything you have and /or are if you love it so much?
Pressman on Pay
Re pay yes there is an increase in the basic the increase is 300 Euros a month but that is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Having given up a very well paid job to do this I am more than aware that the pay is poor. I never said it wasn't!! I said I know and I don't care because I get to fly 738s. Frankly if they didn't pay me at all I would still be there (and no I can't afford it) Well over £100k in debt and frankly don't care it is only money and I will swop all of it to fly the line happily. I get more in debt every day with FR but I wake up before the alarm clock every morning because I get to go flying.
If there was no contract I would still be there so stop second guessing poeple like me it's called taking a risk, try it
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Vortex you are a brave soul to gamble not only your own wellbeing but also your family's for your must to fly. I really hope your children (I suppose you havesome ) do not have to suffer from your reckless attitude. Your posting makes me wonder what kind of risks you might take in the cockpit?
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It’s a dangerous financial game that you are playing vortex with your family’s future. If you can live with it great, some airline interviews require that you disclose what debt you have, as we all know that huge debt costs can have adverse affect on your abilities and mental attitude.
You have to be in it to win, but at what cost? Some costs are too high!
You have to be in it to win, but at what cost? Some costs are too high!
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Re pay yes there is an increase in the basic the increase is 300 Euros a month but that is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Having given up a very well paid job to do this I am more than aware that the pay is poor. I never said it wasn't!! I said I know and I don't care because I get to fly 738s. Frankly if they didn't pay me at all I would still be there (and no I can't afford it) Well over £100k in debt and frankly don't care it is only money and I will swop all of it to fly the line happily. I get more in debt every day with FR but I wake up before the alarm clock every morning because I get to go flying.
If there was no contract I would still be there so stop second guessing poeple like me it's called taking a risk, try it
If there was no contract I would still be there so stop second guessing poeple like me it's called taking a risk, try it
I wish your family luck, VT. They will need it.
Scroggs
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Why do you hate ambition so I sense an ivory tower
Not too sure what it is that you all seem so threatened by or saddened by. For those of you on the inside the making of this type of situation is quite simply that there is no meritocracy in the aviation fraternity at present.
Airlines no longer interivew suitable applicants and hire those who pass thier own firms assesments best they hire who ever is at the top of the CV pile or whoever knows someone inside. Or whoever gives the most cash.
So it is airlines who create a situation where those without contacts can only be hired if they want it more and are willing to give up more than others. I did not create the state of the industry but I am certainly not going to miss out on opportunites for the sake of saving face. If the industry wants to test me against my peers and then tell me I am not good enough then fine but seeing as no one really presents opportunities in this fashion, we have what we have instead.
Interviews are harder to come by than rocking horse proverbials what else can you expect. Maybe an aviation SAT or similar some form of national ranking could be established and then as airlines want new crews they just take from the top. Some poeple will enter higher than others some will never make it but at least then it would be in some way fair.
The facts though it isn't fair, it is about being lucky, ambitious and in the right place at the right time and we all know that. We also know that the more ambitious you are the more luck you create for yourself.
Fellow Aviator I suggest you actaully get to know me before you start making comments about my 'reckless personality' as you call it. I do not have to value my ego to value others. I spent enough years as an army officer willing to give my life and that of others who served to ensure the future of you and your families. I never paid that price, I never wanted to to but it did not deter me from carrying out my duty willingly and knowingly. It didn't seem so reckless then. I would actaully call that selfless wouldn't you!!!
I take the responsibility of others to be of the highest importance and always have and always will sacrifice myself, my feelings and anything I have to ensure that others do not have to. I am not there to have fun, be or feel glamarous or for any other reason other than I believe that this is the best thing that I can do with my life, others can benefit from it and I will not cease until it is so. I put my firm, passengers and profession above my own needs and believe in a work work balance as eveyone should try and do what they are best at for a living so that their work is thier life. If having acheived all of this I can then enjoy it and also make a good living from it then that is a bonus.
You and Scroggs may call it stupidity, I call it ambition. A dangerous financial game you call it. Well call me a bluff old traditionalist but it is a mathematically sound game in my eyes. I am well qualified, multi skilled with a diverse work experience. It is not as if I will be working in McDonalds if it all goes wrong. If I persist and am good enough then I will get a suitbaly rewarded position. That will enable me to look after my family whatever I end up doing. If I end up as a bus driver then I will try and be the best bus drive that ever existed, that's just how they made me, forgive me if this is a scary concept but there are some driven people out there who actually want to work hard, be dedicated, earn a living and don't expect to earn huge amounts of money.
Re the children comment, no we do not yet have children, we have decided to wait to see how the career goes as we (condsider our careers more important) we will have children when we can afford them. I am not selfish my wife knew what I wanted and at what cost before she married me and supports me 100%. We would not place children into a financially unsecure existence as they have no choices and we are not gods and therefore should not make life choices for them before they are born. So stop second guessing me if you want to know just like aviation dont guess. Do not mistake ambition for ego or recklessness for selflessness.
£100,000 cannot even buy a flat in the south of england so why is it not worth investing this some in a qualification that you will have for a lifetime? It is 2-3 years salary and when attached to property about the same in equity so in 4-5 years we will be pretty much debt free which with 30years left to work is hardly reckless financially. I see little point in dying with millions of pounds saved, if I wanted to be wealthy there are many more lucrative options that I would have chosen to follow.
I hope that this clarifies your incorrect assumptions. VT
Airlines no longer interivew suitable applicants and hire those who pass thier own firms assesments best they hire who ever is at the top of the CV pile or whoever knows someone inside. Or whoever gives the most cash.
So it is airlines who create a situation where those without contacts can only be hired if they want it more and are willing to give up more than others. I did not create the state of the industry but I am certainly not going to miss out on opportunites for the sake of saving face. If the industry wants to test me against my peers and then tell me I am not good enough then fine but seeing as no one really presents opportunities in this fashion, we have what we have instead.
Interviews are harder to come by than rocking horse proverbials what else can you expect. Maybe an aviation SAT or similar some form of national ranking could be established and then as airlines want new crews they just take from the top. Some poeple will enter higher than others some will never make it but at least then it would be in some way fair.
The facts though it isn't fair, it is about being lucky, ambitious and in the right place at the right time and we all know that. We also know that the more ambitious you are the more luck you create for yourself.
Fellow Aviator I suggest you actaully get to know me before you start making comments about my 'reckless personality' as you call it. I do not have to value my ego to value others. I spent enough years as an army officer willing to give my life and that of others who served to ensure the future of you and your families. I never paid that price, I never wanted to to but it did not deter me from carrying out my duty willingly and knowingly. It didn't seem so reckless then. I would actaully call that selfless wouldn't you!!!
I take the responsibility of others to be of the highest importance and always have and always will sacrifice myself, my feelings and anything I have to ensure that others do not have to. I am not there to have fun, be or feel glamarous or for any other reason other than I believe that this is the best thing that I can do with my life, others can benefit from it and I will not cease until it is so. I put my firm, passengers and profession above my own needs and believe in a work work balance as eveyone should try and do what they are best at for a living so that their work is thier life. If having acheived all of this I can then enjoy it and also make a good living from it then that is a bonus.
You and Scroggs may call it stupidity, I call it ambition. A dangerous financial game you call it. Well call me a bluff old traditionalist but it is a mathematically sound game in my eyes. I am well qualified, multi skilled with a diverse work experience. It is not as if I will be working in McDonalds if it all goes wrong. If I persist and am good enough then I will get a suitbaly rewarded position. That will enable me to look after my family whatever I end up doing. If I end up as a bus driver then I will try and be the best bus drive that ever existed, that's just how they made me, forgive me if this is a scary concept but there are some driven people out there who actually want to work hard, be dedicated, earn a living and don't expect to earn huge amounts of money.
Re the children comment, no we do not yet have children, we have decided to wait to see how the career goes as we (condsider our careers more important) we will have children when we can afford them. I am not selfish my wife knew what I wanted and at what cost before she married me and supports me 100%. We would not place children into a financially unsecure existence as they have no choices and we are not gods and therefore should not make life choices for them before they are born. So stop second guessing me if you want to know just like aviation dont guess. Do not mistake ambition for ego or recklessness for selflessness.
£100,000 cannot even buy a flat in the south of england so why is it not worth investing this some in a qualification that you will have for a lifetime? It is 2-3 years salary and when attached to property about the same in equity so in 4-5 years we will be pretty much debt free which with 30years left to work is hardly reckless financially. I see little point in dying with millions of pounds saved, if I wanted to be wealthy there are many more lucrative options that I would have chosen to follow.
I hope that this clarifies your incorrect assumptions. VT
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VT, I will not conduct this discussion by PM!
For my views on the consequences of accepting below-par terms and conditions, read this post. The effects I describe there are happening right now, and have been doing for some time. That's not your fault, but you (collectively) should be aware of the consequences of your enthusiasm for flying.
It's in a way unfortunate that this profession is still one of those that has a patina of glamour about it, because it tends to attract many who think with their hearts not with their heads. After a couple of years in the job, you will wonder what you were thinking when you declared you'd do whatever it takes to get into the job: accepting little or no pay, ****ty conditions, ever-moving bases and all the other things referred to in this and other threads. With your £100k debt to service, you may well find that you are having to take on other work, and your partner is also working to pay your debt - as well as keep a roof over your heads, and food on the table. The strain will tell. Not yet, maybe, but it will. Eventually, you may find - as many have before you - that your dream isn't held by your family with as much enthusiasm as it is by you. The privations they endure so that you can fly may become just too much to bear, and they may look for a way out. Without your partner's contribution, you may not be able to service that debt (which may by then have increased if you've had trouble paying). Where do you go then? Hold out for a command (which won't pay what it used to) while stalling the bank, or leave flying and try and get a stable job that pays a living wage?
That's where all this could end up for you. It has for many others. Don't sell yourself short; the consequences are really, really not worth it.
Scroggs
For my views on the consequences of accepting below-par terms and conditions, read this post. The effects I describe there are happening right now, and have been doing for some time. That's not your fault, but you (collectively) should be aware of the consequences of your enthusiasm for flying.
It's in a way unfortunate that this profession is still one of those that has a patina of glamour about it, because it tends to attract many who think with their hearts not with their heads. After a couple of years in the job, you will wonder what you were thinking when you declared you'd do whatever it takes to get into the job: accepting little or no pay, ****ty conditions, ever-moving bases and all the other things referred to in this and other threads. With your £100k debt to service, you may well find that you are having to take on other work, and your partner is also working to pay your debt - as well as keep a roof over your heads, and food on the table. The strain will tell. Not yet, maybe, but it will. Eventually, you may find - as many have before you - that your dream isn't held by your family with as much enthusiasm as it is by you. The privations they endure so that you can fly may become just too much to bear, and they may look for a way out. Without your partner's contribution, you may not be able to service that debt (which may by then have increased if you've had trouble paying). Where do you go then? Hold out for a command (which won't pay what it used to) while stalling the bank, or leave flying and try and get a stable job that pays a living wage?
That's where all this could end up for you. It has for many others. Don't sell yourself short; the consequences are really, really not worth it.
Scroggs
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"I am more than aware that the pay is poor. I never said it wasn't!! I said I know and I don't care because I get to fly 738s. Frankly if they didn't pay me at all I would still be there (and no I can't afford it)"
Buddy, if that came out of your mouth on my flight deck I'd be sitting on my hands to avoid slapping you. Honest to god, you're exactly the kind of person our industry doesn't need. Then again, you might just be dense, either way stay out.
Your desire to work for free may well come true though if there are enough of you people in the industry. I'll tell you what, the airlines are more than happy to accommodate your request, in fact most of them would in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the pilots fighting for their rights through unions. One thing is for sure, you won't be making any friends with your mindset if you DO get hired one day.
6 months down the line when your company has removed all staff travel, food and water making you pay your own sim-checks, ID cards, medicals and graciously decide to decrease your pay because of fuel costs/decrease in pax loads/whatever other reason they think of you might start to wake up. When they then decide to re-base you to Poland indefinitely as per your contract, change your roster from 5 on 3 off to 5 on 2 off and remove 5 annual leave days you're not going to wake up before the alarm rings, you're going to be awake all night wondering wtf went wrong.
But you say, by then I'll have enough hours to move on. Sure you will, but by accepting the conditions you did you gave your company the edge. Other companies soon follow suite to remain competitive. So when you start looking around for another job, you find that the conditions are crap elsewhere too. Right now times are pretty good, and changing company is an option for a lot of guys and still we have this bullying management in plenty of places. How do you think they'll treat a newbie guy who just prostituted himself to get hired in the first place when times are bad and no jobs can be found.
Think about that for a while why don't you.
Buddy, if that came out of your mouth on my flight deck I'd be sitting on my hands to avoid slapping you. Honest to god, you're exactly the kind of person our industry doesn't need. Then again, you might just be dense, either way stay out.
Your desire to work for free may well come true though if there are enough of you people in the industry. I'll tell you what, the airlines are more than happy to accommodate your request, in fact most of them would in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the pilots fighting for their rights through unions. One thing is for sure, you won't be making any friends with your mindset if you DO get hired one day.
6 months down the line when your company has removed all staff travel, food and water making you pay your own sim-checks, ID cards, medicals and graciously decide to decrease your pay because of fuel costs/decrease in pax loads/whatever other reason they think of you might start to wake up. When they then decide to re-base you to Poland indefinitely as per your contract, change your roster from 5 on 3 off to 5 on 2 off and remove 5 annual leave days you're not going to wake up before the alarm rings, you're going to be awake all night wondering wtf went wrong.
But you say, by then I'll have enough hours to move on. Sure you will, but by accepting the conditions you did you gave your company the edge. Other companies soon follow suite to remain competitive. So when you start looking around for another job, you find that the conditions are crap elsewhere too. Right now times are pretty good, and changing company is an option for a lot of guys and still we have this bullying management in plenty of places. How do you think they'll treat a newbie guy who just prostituted himself to get hired in the first place when times are bad and no jobs can be found.
Think about that for a while why don't you.
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VT, with regard to the statements where you were willing to gamble your own and most importantly your family's savings struck me as reckless. You made it very clear your are willing to take extraordinary risks to pursue you career. This is pure coin flipping which will most likely end badly, see the definition for Gambler's Ruin. Don't mix up gambling and ambition they couldn't be further apart.
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Quote by Vortex ThingYou and Scroggs may call it stupidity, I call it ambition. A dangerous financial game you call it. Well call me a bluff old traditionalist but it is a mathematically sound game in my eyes. I am well qualified, multi skilled with a diverse work experience. It is not as if I will be working in McDonalds if it all goes wrong. If I persist and am good enough then I will get a suitbaly rewarded position. That will enable me to look after my family whatever I end up doing. If I end up as a bus driver then I will try and be the best bus drive that ever existed, that's just how they made me, forgive me if this is a scary concept but there are some driven people out there who actually want to work hard, be dedicated, earn a living and don't expect to earn huge amounts of money.
Having recently been for a ryanair selection recently and not made it I am begining to think as we say in Africa that every dissappointment is a blessing in disguise. I spoke with two of my friends with whom I went to school after the selection and I was shocked they both said the same thing that I should concider it a lucky escape. In both cases they both have friends whom have recently been employed by them and have recieved first hand accounts of how things went.
The enthusiasm they had for flying since they were kids almost evaporated within a month of flying brand new 738's for ryanair. One was sent off to a base he didn't want becauce that was the only place available. Stanstead now has about 500 pilots for 40 planes. However I did gain the experience of interview and sim check also talking tio other prospective pilots from all over the world on that day.
Scroggs After a couple of years in the job, you will wonder what you were thinking when you declared you'd do whatever it takes to get into the job: accepting little or no pay, ****ty conditions, ever-moving bases and all the other things referred to in this and other threads. With your £100k debt to service, you may well find that you are having to take on other work, and your partner is also working to pay your debt - as well as keep a roof over your heads, and food on the table. The strain will tell. Not yet, maybe, but it will.
In both cases I refered to they both regreted it in less than two months of line training wondering what they've got themselves into. One was even bold enough to admit that he wasn't warned well enough which is odd concidering the availability of pprune and other sources.
I am still trying to figure out how ryanair is profiting from this sstr schemes short of the companies in question CAE and SAS paying them a commission for every candidate that forks out £19k for type ratings. But then we are in a capitalist society in which terms and conditions are dfetermined by market forces rather than what is right or common sense. To those who want to go to ryanair good luck but go in with your eyes wide open and remember if I had been successful myself I will be part of the problem contributing to worsening conditions for future pilots. The question we have to ask ourselves is that do I want my dream so bad that I am willing to mess things up for those coming behind.
Having recently been for a ryanair selection recently and not made it I am begining to think as we say in Africa that every dissappointment is a blessing in disguise. I spoke with two of my friends with whom I went to school after the selection and I was shocked they both said the same thing that I should concider it a lucky escape. In both cases they both have friends whom have recently been employed by them and have recieved first hand accounts of how things went.
The enthusiasm they had for flying since they were kids almost evaporated within a month of flying brand new 738's for ryanair. One was sent off to a base he didn't want becauce that was the only place available. Stanstead now has about 500 pilots for 40 planes. However I did gain the experience of interview and sim check also talking tio other prospective pilots from all over the world on that day.
Scroggs After a couple of years in the job, you will wonder what you were thinking when you declared you'd do whatever it takes to get into the job: accepting little or no pay, ****ty conditions, ever-moving bases and all the other things referred to in this and other threads. With your £100k debt to service, you may well find that you are having to take on other work, and your partner is also working to pay your debt - as well as keep a roof over your heads, and food on the table. The strain will tell. Not yet, maybe, but it will.
In both cases I refered to they both regreted it in less than two months of line training wondering what they've got themselves into. One was even bold enough to admit that he wasn't warned well enough which is odd concidering the availability of pprune and other sources.
I am still trying to figure out how ryanair is profiting from this sstr schemes short of the companies in question CAE and SAS paying them a commission for every candidate that forks out £19k for type ratings. But then we are in a capitalist society in which terms and conditions are dfetermined by market forces rather than what is right or common sense. To those who want to go to ryanair good luck but go in with your eyes wide open and remember if I had been successful myself I will be part of the problem contributing to worsening conditions for future pilots. The question we have to ask ourselves is that do I want my dream so bad that I am willing to mess things up for those coming behind.
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High horses and you...
Buddy, if that came out of your mouth on my flight deck I'd be sitting on my hands to avoid slapping you. Honest to god, you're exactly the kind of person our industry doesn't need. Then again, you might just be dense, either way stay out.
Your desire to work for free may well come true though if there are enough of you people in the industry. I'll tell you what, the airlines are more than happy to accommodate your request, in fact most of them would in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the pilots fighting for their rights through unions. One thing is for sure, you won't be making any friends with your mindset if you DO get hired one day.
6 months down the line when your company has removed all staff travel, food and water making you pay your own sim-checks, ID cards, medicals and graciously decide to decrease your pay because of fuel costs/decrease in pax loads/whatever other reason they think of you might start to wake up. When they then decide to re-base you to Poland indefinitely as per your contract, change your roster from 5 on 3 off to 5 on 2 off and remove 5 annual leave days you're not going to wake up before the alarm rings, you're going to be awake all night wondering wtf went wrong.
Well BUDDY if you were on my flight deck I'd be wanting to slap you right back as you have no right more than me to be there. You are exactly the sort of person who ensures that people find it hard to get in this indsutry. I learnt to fly before I could drive and have dedicated my life to being in aviation, my choice. Who are you to call me dense because I don't make you comfortable by my views. Get over yourself.
You are so worried about protecting your future that you forgot where you came from. I'm ever so sorry if it erodes your terms and condtions of life but am not so sure that have a god given right to good Ts&Cs any more than I do. I think it is worth it, I have earnt that right just as much as every pilot in this forum. We all have the right to choose. I am not some silly school boy following a dream. I have fought and thought long and hard about what I am doing and why, there is no naivety on this end of the pace stick.
I understand that the industry is changing, I understand that I am also neither part of the problem or the solution. If you want things to change tell YOUR management do not take it out on me for wanting success at a price higher than YOU may be prepared to pay. It is called a free market.
Times are changing, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse but they are changing and if you can not deal with it then do not blame me. I have no desire to work for free but if that is what it takes, I simply agree that I think it is worth it. You do not have to agree but you have no right whatsoever to berate me for not helping look after YOUR future, that is your job.
You don't complain that a nice house or car costs too much. You choose the balance that suits you and make the eternal compromise between value for money and desire. Look up Porter's five forces on google if you need help with this.
Re Ts&Cs unless you have not noticed which airline I DO work for. I already pay for my medical, food & water, ID cards and staff travel. C'est la vie. I still think it is worth it.
If as Scroggs suggests COULD happen my family decide that my passion for
flying is not worth as much to them as it is for me then that is unfortunate becuase I went to great lenghts to choose my partner well and she knows how much I want this and was under no illusoin that I would never be happy anywhere except in aviation that is my right and her choice. She seems to think that it is better than me being in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq for 6 months of every year (when she didn't know if I was coming home. Many of us didn't) If i get sentto Poland or Timbuktu, that's life, I have been to wrose places and would again. Seperation will take it's toll I know read the last sentance but I'm probably going to come back alive when I am home nowadays.
I have the right to be passionate, I have the right to acheive my goals and I have paid my debt to a society with people like you in who think that you have the right to deny me my rights.
Re bullying management again understand that in a capitalist society market forces dictate how a market work. We chose our system, we voted in our government and we can vote with our feet any time we like. The thing that you are actually scared of is the terms and conditions changing to a point that makes the industry no longer viable for YOU. In effect you are saying that I should not be quite so vocal or quite so passionate as it may affect YOUR pension. You would in effect sacrifice my desires to sate your own. Well now, I would be dense if I would actually let that happen. Why don't you thin about that for a while.
If the changing face of the industry bothers you so much get of that high horse you rode in on and change it with the people who control everything. The customers and the market. (I refer you back to Porter's 5 forces) Make them understand that we are worth loads more of their hard earned money as we are more important than them, or just accept that we will gegt paid whatever the industry can sustain and it that is on the decline then accept it or change it rather than calling me names in a feeble attempt at defending you own insecurities about your future in the pretense of protecting the industry.
If you genuinely want the industry protecting then it is nonsensical that you would not want the hardest working and most dedicated poeple available to be part of that, people who will give thier all and who will maximise safety, and revenue (in that order) for said firm as opposed to those who would rather see a fat pension because they cannot keep up with the times. If you want security I point you in the direction of a property or other investment portfolio.
I suggest that you direct your energy to informing the customer and management of the problems. Not berating me for wanting what you already have, as if you have some right, more than me to so have it!!
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BBT dont judge everyone by your own standards. You make it seem like there is some naivety on my part in accepting the terms and conditions of my position with FR.
You say you sense an "Ivory Tower". That is your interpretation. But perhaps your interpretation is just a misreading of what is being said to you. You prize certain attributes in spades, even perhaps too excess for the career you have chosen.
When you find yourself in an airline that thoroughly abuses you the question will, eventually, come down to whether or not you will see a solution in standing shoulder to shoulder with your colleagues to improve your situation, or in ploughing your own furrow. Your decision. I will leave it at that.
***************
The authentic voice of Ryanair is to be found in the post above by the Ryanair apologist Inveritas who puts a mild exterior on the "realities" of those who find the promises made at interview, etc. are broken when it suits Ryanair. He says, fair enough, "this is not a branch of Thomas Cook". But this is hardly what is at issue, which is that there are few Ryanair pilots with any period of service who do not feel that a Ryanair promise - even in writing - is worse than useless.
***************
I have read the link provided in the second line of the post by Scroggs yesterday at 17:12. In my opinion this is a stellar post and should be read by all aspiring pilots and those already employed in this increasingly unpleasant working environment. It is a concise explanation of the issues and greatly to be welcomed for that very fact.
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Vortex Thing, you were going fine right up to the point where you said:
Working for free is never justifiable. I hope that one day you will come to see that. Had you had military people working alongside you in Iraq, Afgahanistan etc. who gaily declared, 'This is such fun, I'd even pay HMG for the job', you'd have rightly dismissed them as crazy. Well, now here you are declaring you'd work for free and you want to be understood by those you may be working with? Get real!
Listen and understand this: you have no right to a flying job. You have certainly have no right to undermine the Ts & Cs that I and my colleagues have worked hard to attain and protect. You will eventually want my job (or that of people like me); you will need to learn a thing or two about loyalty to those you work with as opposed to those you work for before you will find yourself acceptable within this field. I'm surprised that your military time hasn't taught you that.
You no longer work in an environment where your superiors have your best interests at heart. You now have to fight for everything you get. Rolling over and presenting your arse for a shafting may turn you on, but it screws everyone else as well.
Scroggs
I have no desire to work for free but if that is what it takes, I simply agree that I think it is worth it
Listen and understand this: you have no right to a flying job. You have certainly have no right to undermine the Ts & Cs that I and my colleagues have worked hard to attain and protect. You will eventually want my job (or that of people like me); you will need to learn a thing or two about loyalty to those you work with as opposed to those you work for before you will find yourself acceptable within this field. I'm surprised that your military time hasn't taught you that.
You no longer work in an environment where your superiors have your best interests at heart. You now have to fight for everything you get. Rolling over and presenting your arse for a shafting may turn you on, but it screws everyone else as well.
Scroggs
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You are exactly the sort of person who ensures that people find it hard to get in this indsutry.
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I think the problem lies above not below....
Gnirren again you missed the point.
I have always studied hard and decided young to be a pilot aged 8. Aged 12, I choose my O level, A level and degree subjects to maximise the chances of that happening knowing that I planned a military flying career before a civilian one. At 16 I was awarded an RAF flying scholarship at 18 I joined the university air squadron. I then went to Sandhurst and spent 8 years as an Army officer waiting 3 years before being allowed to even apply for the army pilots course and then eventually left the army some 4 years ago.
I finished off my CPL/IR and did an instructors rating. I worked for £8k a year in my first instructional job driving 165 miles to work as it was the only instructing job I could find I got paid £180 for my first months work. It cost me almost £800 a month to get to work but there were no other jobs. I then found another school 80 miles away rising to the dizzy heights of £11k a year and then my wife and I decided to relocate closer to London as there was more work there. I eventually got a job 20 miles away this time paying £20ph in the air and there managed to get a good amount of hours and experience on PPL and CPL courses.
After a few years of instructing I could no longer meet my commitments financially and even though willing to work at any type of aviation job needed to earn a living wage. All the time I had diligently applied monthly to firms across the world happy to relocate to any country anywhere in the world to get my break, I tried firms in Africa, Asia, Canada, etc but never got an interview. I applied for ops jobs and dispatch jobs before begrudginly moving away from aviation because I found a role that paid £60k for my commercial knowledge working an 80hr week to look after me and mine.
I retrained again (costing me 5k more in training for my non aviation role) and carried on waiting for the day that maybe someone might invite me to interview I have earnt my right to have an interview and nobody of the 293 outstanding applications that I have in a box would give me one.
So you tell me what the options are when you are 35? I have no desire to make the industry worse, I have no desire to destroy anything that you have done but I belive that I have the SAME not lesser rights than you to be in a cockpit. You make it seem like I have used money to take a shortcut rather than getting a real pilots job, you find me one who will even give me the chance by interviewing me and then things would be different.
I did not decide to go 738 or nothing. I have applied to all the locals and TPs. Flybe have never offered me an interview, nor BACON, nor Loganair, nor Eastern, etc, this is not for lack of phonecalls, doorstepping, cajoling, etc attempts they just never offer most do not even answer. If I could get an instructing job at a local commercial school then I would have taken it but the hours make no difference when I and you see 200hr guys getting interviews and me not.
You say skill and ability should be the deciders, well you are right if you want to test me out against any applicant can you tell me how 200hr guys get an interview with Flybe and I don't based on a CV?
Is it due to my lack of skill how would you or they ever know if I cannot get an interview. Ryanair were the 1st airline to offer me an interview ever since 2003 when I left the army was I supposed to say sorry no can't take it it may erode Scroggs or BBTs future. I think not!
You keep making it sound like I do not understand the consequences of where my and others actions can lead the industry, sorry again fundamentally wrong. I do understand, I, as is my right, do not like how the industry treats me but am not stupid enough to not take any opportunity presented to me as no one else will even interview me.
If you would not in my position then good for you but you are not me and though you think that I am somebody who has bought their way in through lack of skill I would suggest that I am a reasonably able pilot who has come through arguably one of the most selective and demanding backgrounds and training courses in aviation and challenge you to prove that I do not deserve to be in the RHS somewhere.
I would genuinely have preferred more instructional time, more multi time and a TP job but if Eastern, Logan, Flybe et al will not even interview me and even if I was successful I need £45k a year just to make the mortgage and meet my debt. My choices were limited to FR or back to the office watching planes out of the window and making other people happy by making them lots of money. You may not believe that I deserve to be there but if I would argue that my skill and knowledge are as good as any FO 2000hrs or less out there who is NOT jet or TP rated. I have not jumped the queue I have taken the ONLY opportunity available and would do so again every day for the rest of my life.
If that means that in 10 yrs time we get paid less than that's life but I am not your airlines HR Director or your board of directors now am I. I'm just another qualified, keen aviation lover and professional pilot who wants to fly ANYTHING for a living.
Trust me getting the PPL onto first solo when they are 30hrs on and struggling is more rewarding than acheiving a 25 min turnaround but the PPL guy isn't going to pay my mortgage and nor are you!
So Gnirren stop making it seem like it is about the jets I don't care about the jets I just want to get a job flying that allows me some hope of paying the debt of that I have accrued qualifiying myself so to do and if flying for free, be it in instruction, para dropping or as an astronaut gets me more experience then I will do it as no one out there except me cares about me and until you are willing to go on strike and make your airlines recruit fairly by skill and knowledge as YOU suggest then I suggest that you step down from what is an ivory tower (it must be if you belive that you can query my skill and ability and call me beyond stupid! without knowing nothing of my ability, never having met me and never having even seen my CV) and take a look at who is looking after me: you Fellow Aviator, Scroggs and Gnirren are not exactly fighting your HR directors to make sure that I get an interview or even a fair crack of the whip now are you so why do you think that I should protect your Ts&Cs I ask you why YOU have a greater right than me to be in any cockpit?
I have always studied hard and decided young to be a pilot aged 8. Aged 12, I choose my O level, A level and degree subjects to maximise the chances of that happening knowing that I planned a military flying career before a civilian one. At 16 I was awarded an RAF flying scholarship at 18 I joined the university air squadron. I then went to Sandhurst and spent 8 years as an Army officer waiting 3 years before being allowed to even apply for the army pilots course and then eventually left the army some 4 years ago.
I finished off my CPL/IR and did an instructors rating. I worked for £8k a year in my first instructional job driving 165 miles to work as it was the only instructing job I could find I got paid £180 for my first months work. It cost me almost £800 a month to get to work but there were no other jobs. I then found another school 80 miles away rising to the dizzy heights of £11k a year and then my wife and I decided to relocate closer to London as there was more work there. I eventually got a job 20 miles away this time paying £20ph in the air and there managed to get a good amount of hours and experience on PPL and CPL courses.
After a few years of instructing I could no longer meet my commitments financially and even though willing to work at any type of aviation job needed to earn a living wage. All the time I had diligently applied monthly to firms across the world happy to relocate to any country anywhere in the world to get my break, I tried firms in Africa, Asia, Canada, etc but never got an interview. I applied for ops jobs and dispatch jobs before begrudginly moving away from aviation because I found a role that paid £60k for my commercial knowledge working an 80hr week to look after me and mine.
I retrained again (costing me 5k more in training for my non aviation role) and carried on waiting for the day that maybe someone might invite me to interview I have earnt my right to have an interview and nobody of the 293 outstanding applications that I have in a box would give me one.
So you tell me what the options are when you are 35? I have no desire to make the industry worse, I have no desire to destroy anything that you have done but I belive that I have the SAME not lesser rights than you to be in a cockpit. You make it seem like I have used money to take a shortcut rather than getting a real pilots job, you find me one who will even give me the chance by interviewing me and then things would be different.
I did not decide to go 738 or nothing. I have applied to all the locals and TPs. Flybe have never offered me an interview, nor BACON, nor Loganair, nor Eastern, etc, this is not for lack of phonecalls, doorstepping, cajoling, etc attempts they just never offer most do not even answer. If I could get an instructing job at a local commercial school then I would have taken it but the hours make no difference when I and you see 200hr guys getting interviews and me not.
You say skill and ability should be the deciders, well you are right if you want to test me out against any applicant can you tell me how 200hr guys get an interview with Flybe and I don't based on a CV?
Is it due to my lack of skill how would you or they ever know if I cannot get an interview. Ryanair were the 1st airline to offer me an interview ever since 2003 when I left the army was I supposed to say sorry no can't take it it may erode Scroggs or BBTs future. I think not!
You keep making it sound like I do not understand the consequences of where my and others actions can lead the industry, sorry again fundamentally wrong. I do understand, I, as is my right, do not like how the industry treats me but am not stupid enough to not take any opportunity presented to me as no one else will even interview me.
If you would not in my position then good for you but you are not me and though you think that I am somebody who has bought their way in through lack of skill I would suggest that I am a reasonably able pilot who has come through arguably one of the most selective and demanding backgrounds and training courses in aviation and challenge you to prove that I do not deserve to be in the RHS somewhere.
I would genuinely have preferred more instructional time, more multi time and a TP job but if Eastern, Logan, Flybe et al will not even interview me and even if I was successful I need £45k a year just to make the mortgage and meet my debt. My choices were limited to FR or back to the office watching planes out of the window and making other people happy by making them lots of money. You may not believe that I deserve to be there but if I would argue that my skill and knowledge are as good as any FO 2000hrs or less out there who is NOT jet or TP rated. I have not jumped the queue I have taken the ONLY opportunity available and would do so again every day for the rest of my life.
If that means that in 10 yrs time we get paid less than that's life but I am not your airlines HR Director or your board of directors now am I. I'm just another qualified, keen aviation lover and professional pilot who wants to fly ANYTHING for a living.
Trust me getting the PPL onto first solo when they are 30hrs on and struggling is more rewarding than acheiving a 25 min turnaround but the PPL guy isn't going to pay my mortgage and nor are you!
So Gnirren stop making it seem like it is about the jets I don't care about the jets I just want to get a job flying that allows me some hope of paying the debt of that I have accrued qualifiying myself so to do and if flying for free, be it in instruction, para dropping or as an astronaut gets me more experience then I will do it as no one out there except me cares about me and until you are willing to go on strike and make your airlines recruit fairly by skill and knowledge as YOU suggest then I suggest that you step down from what is an ivory tower (it must be if you belive that you can query my skill and ability and call me beyond stupid! without knowing nothing of my ability, never having met me and never having even seen my CV) and take a look at who is looking after me: you Fellow Aviator, Scroggs and Gnirren are not exactly fighting your HR directors to make sure that I get an interview or even a fair crack of the whip now are you so why do you think that I should protect your Ts&Cs I ask you why YOU have a greater right than me to be in any cockpit?
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 19th Feb 2007 at 18:54. Reason: Sorry too many typos