Redsnail I remember you when you used to work on sheds in fact and have followed some of your career and fully support all you have done and would love to follow in your footsteps but cannot as there are NO other opportunites out there. Your post though appearing to disagree with me actually proves my point. You waited 18yrs for your chance I have waited 4 for mine but this is not my chosen route I would have preffered some light charter then TP work but there isn't any.
I think some of the more vociferous respondees should actually go back to my first post on this topic. I did not actually advocate or even show a desire to work for free. I stated that IF and ONLY IF it was the only way to get into the RHS ANYWHERE then I would do it because there are no other opportunities available. ANYWHERE = Chieftan, Seneca, King Air i.e really anywhere.
For clarification, the statement is nothing to do with getting RHS of a jet I just wanted (past tense) to get ANY flying job. If Flybe had interviewed me and asked me to pay for a TR and offered me the chance of a contract/job/trial at the end I would have signed in blood there and then.
The only reason this debate seems to have gone down the route of
becoming jet oriented is because High Wing, Scroggs, et al have made it so.
As for HWD and the others that seem to think that you just borrow the money for the type rating and then try and get by on £750 per month from FR don't be churlish. You borrow your usual monthly salary so say £3.5k take home per month for 12 months and then add the cost of transport, plus accomodation, misc and add all of this together this comes to over £50k investment and then you take home £55k per year so are back to your original salary. So you actually borrow £42 plus the type rating £18k i.e. £60k
To add to the £60-80k you have probably already built up from original fATPL course and the lack of money from the salary difference between a living wage and an instructing for a few years and there is the total probably nearer £120k of debt. So how do you pay it back? read on.....
People stop pretending £100,000 is a lot of money. You cannot even get a studio flat for £100,000. One of my best friends is a barrister he like all barrister's worked for... wait for it free!!! for his pupilage and funnily enough now earns the wage commensurate with the job. My wife a chartered accountant who did not quite work for free but got £11k as a trainee for her first year. She too had debts from university etc but didn't baulk at the opportunity strangely enough she now earns a comensurate wage for her job. Deloitte, Pricewaterhouse Coopers etc amongst toerhs pay £20k as a training salary now. Why? They could not get enough applicants of sufficient quality through the door. When this happens in aviation then our wages will reflect it, for now they don't its called a free market. Back to the money...
Any 3 bed semi average £250,000 (in the south before the screams start) can expect to grow by 40-50k in equity every 3-4 years so after oh say 10 years of paying an extra £500 per month on your mortgage you have made the money back in equity alone. This is hardly what is described above as crippling debt now is it. Then all salary can be devoted to school fees, holidays and pensions as required. This is not the scenario being described above.
Lets be honest the guy who sold you your last mobile phone takes home £40k a year, the guy managing McDonalds take home £35k it is not difficult to make enough money to pay back this sort of debt and this is with a 3 bed semi. So unless you really need the 5 bed detached with pool in Gerrards Cross I think that my wife and I are not quite on the poverty line yet.
You can spend £30k on a new car, £5k on a decent skiing holiday so let's not pretend that £100k of debt for a lifetime qualification is so massive an investment that I and others shall be hanging around King's Cross with a sign saying get it here to raise extra cash.
I am sure from my posts that it is clear that I wish to have a long and full career in aviation I have no intention of spending my life working for nothing but Scroggs et al believes that I am on some campaign to get thier Ts&Cs demolished. The chap who spoke about standing shoulder to shoulder should then agree that he should be standing shoulder to shoulder with me and others now to get fair selection rather than a pecuniary based system but until that happens if anyone has a better suggestion for getting a job please do tell us all and end this debate.
Scroggs I did not make the system, I reiterate that you are senior enough in it use your voice to change it. I just take what is there and I as I keep saying have a right to take every opportunity presented. If this means that I need to have Redsnails career path or work in the North Pole and work from larger to larger aircraft then I AM HAPPY TO DO IT. There are however NO OTHER opportunites out there. So address that. NOT that I am willing to take the only thing available to me. I have just as much (no more, no less) right as you to earn a living from flying.
Seems a pretty good deal compared to working for Flybe, had they ever interviewed me, for £22k for 3 yrs by which time the only winner would be the official receiver.
Sir Pratt and Jonty perhaps you would like to elaborate rather than just posting a sneer. If you email or apply you get no reply and or nothing followed by no interviews. So hence doorstepping is the next logical step, though you seem to believe that you know the finer points of negotiation I would like to see your first attempts a negotiating in Bosnia with a rifle in your face. Like those who cannot see the difference between passion and the ability to fly safely you run the risk of colouring your judgement by assuming that I have the narrowness of thought that you are exhibiting with your raposte.
May I suggest that you spot the difference between the two and actually counter my argument rather than make blanket assumptions and statements like "I can see why he hasn't got an interview" Can you? what are those reasons? Share them with the forum so that we can all benefit from your wisdom. Can you tell from where I went to school, uni and what regiment I served in that I am not worth interviewing because my views on the industry aren't on my CV. Don't talk such tosh.
vg6 "your" idea may be to do as little as possible I actually enjoy work hence if I find myself finished then there is something that I can do to further increase my knowledge, progress or learn more to be better not go home. If you want an easy life rather than continuous professional development get a job which requires no learning and development do not lecture me on my responsibility and certainley I can assure you at the least you have an equal call to quote to me about honour but unless you really are of a very unusual background for these forums then I doubt that you are in a position to tell me or any who has commanded units in operational theatres about the nature of honour as your work ethic shows in your comments.
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