'Will work for free'
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A while ago, chartered accountants started their careers as 'articled clerks'. This was a bought position, and unpaid, in order to gain the relevant experience to qualify and get the big buck jobs.
But times have changed. And they run the airlines.
But times have changed. And they run the airlines.
Join Date: May 2003
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I can see both sides the story here too, it is so wrong for someone to even think this, but look at it from a wannabe's point of view as well, take myself as a casing point, a bit of background 1st without boring you to tears.
Come next April I should have fATPL CPL/MEIR MCC FIC, 250 odd hrs, (just like 500,000 others) 33 years old, just been made redundant from work which pays £50k per year, wife, seriously large mortgage, 2 small children, a nice wedge of redundancy. Ok, me in my head, gees I'm 33, what chances have I got realistically of obtaining a jet job? well at 33 it has to be fairly slim, but that's ok I have my redundancy to fall back on for the time being, hmmm, those CVs havent worked, oh hang on, what's this reply from Airline X? Dear Dean, would you like to come and work for us for nothing for a year, in the meantime you get to fly a nice shiny new 320 for a year which will give you about 700hrs on type, please respond a.s.a.p.
What would you do? I know what I would do, morally wrong? hell yes, opportunity of a life time? hell yes, would I be in a position to say no? hell no, like people have been saying, it's a dog eat dog industry, and a catch22 one at that.
Me after a year of taking the offer, Full ATPL looming, a contract with Airline X, being paid now, well look at that, this time next year I could apply to BA, then another year or 2 I could apply to Virgin, wow my dream of flying 777s could come true soon, thanks Airline X for your offer, without it I'd probably be nowhere
Me after 5 years of not taking it, I am sick to death of instructing now for £x per hr, I knew I should have taken that opportunity a few years ago, goodness knows where I would be now, it certainly wouldn't have been where I am now, curse my luck.
See, it's a vicious circle, maybe you have to blame the people who got the ball rolling some years ago, maybe you have to blame airlines like Astraeus for their 100hrs on type scheme, but which ever way you look at it, it's a culture that isn't going to go away any time soon
Dean
Come next April I should have fATPL CPL/MEIR MCC FIC, 250 odd hrs, (just like 500,000 others) 33 years old, just been made redundant from work which pays £50k per year, wife, seriously large mortgage, 2 small children, a nice wedge of redundancy. Ok, me in my head, gees I'm 33, what chances have I got realistically of obtaining a jet job? well at 33 it has to be fairly slim, but that's ok I have my redundancy to fall back on for the time being, hmmm, those CVs havent worked, oh hang on, what's this reply from Airline X? Dear Dean, would you like to come and work for us for nothing for a year, in the meantime you get to fly a nice shiny new 320 for a year which will give you about 700hrs on type, please respond a.s.a.p.
What would you do? I know what I would do, morally wrong? hell yes, opportunity of a life time? hell yes, would I be in a position to say no? hell no, like people have been saying, it's a dog eat dog industry, and a catch22 one at that.
Me after a year of taking the offer, Full ATPL looming, a contract with Airline X, being paid now, well look at that, this time next year I could apply to BA, then another year or 2 I could apply to Virgin, wow my dream of flying 777s could come true soon, thanks Airline X for your offer, without it I'd probably be nowhere
Me after 5 years of not taking it, I am sick to death of instructing now for £x per hr, I knew I should have taken that opportunity a few years ago, goodness knows where I would be now, it certainly wouldn't have been where I am now, curse my luck.
See, it's a vicious circle, maybe you have to blame the people who got the ball rolling some years ago, maybe you have to blame airlines like Astraeus for their 100hrs on type scheme, but which ever way you look at it, it's a culture that isn't going to go away any time soon
Dean
Join Date: Jan 2003
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As has been said here before, why do the wannabeeeees feel it is essential to get straight onto the jets??????
In the US, you need at least 1500hrs before any Airline will look at you, so that means either Instruction, Arial photography, or something of that ilk!
There are a few Turbo Prop operators in the UK, and operating one of these Aircraft is not only a whole lot of fun, but bloody good experience for the low houred guy.....4-6 sectors per day, CAT2 approaches in the lovely UK weather, cruise of 20 min instead of 3-4hrs down to Turkey etc....It's all good character building stuff, which in turn frees up seats on the jets....THink of it as an Apprenticeship....hmmmmm now theres' an idea
Why oh Why doesn't the Indistry have some kind of structure where the low houred guy is pointed in the direction of the smaller operators.....As I think someone already said, start in the lower divisions then work your way up, if you shine, hell you'll progress quickly!!!!
Come on guys again its not rocket science
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endofeng
ps Q400 Pilot, thanks I love em!
In the US, you need at least 1500hrs before any Airline will look at you, so that means either Instruction, Arial photography, or something of that ilk!
There are a few Turbo Prop operators in the UK, and operating one of these Aircraft is not only a whole lot of fun, but bloody good experience for the low houred guy.....4-6 sectors per day, CAT2 approaches in the lovely UK weather, cruise of 20 min instead of 3-4hrs down to Turkey etc....It's all good character building stuff, which in turn frees up seats on the jets....THink of it as an Apprenticeship....hmmmmm now theres' an idea
Why oh Why doesn't the Indistry have some kind of structure where the low houred guy is pointed in the direction of the smaller operators.....As I think someone already said, start in the lower divisions then work your way up, if you shine, hell you'll progress quickly!!!!
Come on guys again its not rocket science
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endofeng
ps Q400 Pilot, thanks I love em!
Join Date: May 2003
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Who said I wanted a jet job straight off? I didn't what I said was, if i was OFFERED it above anything else, then I'd have to say yes, I've already I said my chances are slim, so I am more than happy with a nice Q400 f/o slot with a certain Exeter based outfit, problem is on here lately is people tend to read something and interpret it however the hell they want 
Please re-read my post, although not stated, I am more than happy instructing, glider towing, parachute dropping, then onto the TPs then onto the jets one day
Dean
what I said was, if i was OFFERED it above anything else, then I'd have to say yes, I've already I said my chances are slim, so I am more than happy with a nice Q400 f/o slot with a certain Exeter based outfit, problem is on here lately is people tend to read something and interpret it however the hell they want Please re-read my post, although not stated, I am more than happy instructing, glider towing, parachute dropping, then onto the TPs then onto the jets one day
Dean
Join Date: Jan 2006
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You can still gain experience flying jets. Then when you get to 1500 hours jet time, you will have better commercial experience than you would have with 1500 hours instructing. Also you have to pay for an instructors rating which is very expensive, and then hardly earning any money anyway.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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experience
Originally Posted by omnidirectional737
You can still gain experience flying jets. Then when you get to 1500 hours jet time, you will have better commercial experience than you would have with 1500 hours instructing. Also you have to pay for an instructors rating which is very expensive, and then hardly earning any money anyway.
Oh, and your balls will be made of steel after that too lol!
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Wot xperience?
Originally Posted by omnidirectional737
You can still gain experience flying jets. Then when you get to 1500 hours jet time, you will have better commercial experience than you would have with 1500 hours instructing. Also you have to pay for an instructors rating which is very expensive, and then hardly earning any money anyway.
You can still gain experience flying jets. Then when you get to 1500 hours jet time, you will have better commercial experience than you would have with 1500 hours instructing. Also you have to pay for an instructors rating which is very expensive, and then hardly earning any money anyway.
No sorry omnidirectional737 there is no comparison between medium/large jet F/O and the reality of flying an old turbo prop, hands on, lousy weather, loads of ADD's and a F/O sitting next to you who can't even spell pilate!
Join Date: May 2003
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Originally Posted by scratchingthesky
Deano
Did not mean to single you out directly you have the right attitude, but there are so many guys and girls who are sold a dream that I personally believe is not realistic.
I know a guy that joined the Turbo Prop outfit i used to work for on a 3 yr bond to leave after about 6 months as he had been accepted to JET2 on 737. He used the turbo prop rung to get to the next level without having to instruct (lucky him). But not sure I would want to pay back around £10,000 for the turbo proptraining and then enter a new bond with JET2 for £23,000, as well as any other debt.
Its a shame the industry has gone down this route, this brings us back to argument of working for free it ruins the T & C for everyone else that follows. If people accepted that after their commercial training they should instruct to build about 1500 hours then move onto the next rung on the ladder.
Deano good luck with training, if you want to try and get that first job try the outfit at HUY still have courses every month and they pay your type rating if you do not leave before the bonding period.
Did not mean to single you out directly you have the right attitude, but there are so many guys and girls who are sold a dream that I personally believe is not realistic.
I know a guy that joined the Turbo Prop outfit i used to work for on a 3 yr bond to leave after about 6 months as he had been accepted to JET2 on 737. He used the turbo prop rung to get to the next level without having to instruct (lucky him). But not sure I would want to pay back around £10,000 for the turbo proptraining and then enter a new bond with JET2 for £23,000, as well as any other debt.
Its a shame the industry has gone down this route, this brings us back to argument of working for free it ruins the T & C for everyone else that follows. If people accepted that after their commercial training they should instruct to build about 1500 hours then move onto the next rung on the ladder.
Deano good luck with training, if you want to try and get that first job try the outfit at HUY still have courses every month and they pay your type rating if you do not leave before the bonding period.
Anyway, back to the casing point, I will take anything that comes, I'd be more than happy with a Q400 command in a few years like I said, to me it's irrelevant whether it's a jet or TP, I just want my first job, I want all the training, money spent & sheer bloody hard work to pay off, still a long way to go yet, though, and if I end up instructing for 2 years so be it, I'm at the age where I will do "whatever it takes", but yes people are right, it is a sad sad state of affairs when people are willing to work for nothing, and as someone said already it probably won't end there, there will come a time when wannabes are going to be paying to fly, it is a vicious circle, are the unions not interested in what is happening? I come from the print industry and we have one of the strongest unions in the country, this sort of activity would never ever be tollerated, but in all honesty have the good times gone? with the ever threat of terrorism & rising fuel costs the bean counters are interested in 1 thing, how they can save money, and the easiest way to do it is to hit pilots T & Cs, training costs etc (mainly for new joiners as has been evident)
Dean
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A sad state of affairs indeed, long gone are the days when flight crews were held in high regard. We are just merely Bus/Taxi drivers these days. The Captains authority has almost all but gone. The guys at the sharp end have all the responsibility and will be held to account should the proverbial hit the fan, apart from that everyone else seems to run the operation, from ops, duty mangers, caterers, Uncle Tom Cobbley an all. But when the proverbial hits you cant see all these micro managers for dust.
The reason......? Too many Fast Commands, Too many Fast Trackers, Too many youngsters who's ability to fly an aircraft are in no doubt but whose life experiences are probably not quite up to speed yet and they get railroaded by all the micro Managers into doing it "their way" Chip.. Chip.. Chip.. away at turnaround times, oh you can go without catering this time, you don't need that extra cabin crew member on this sector; No, the WX radar wont be needed if you use the other runway etc ...etc...etc....... the guys who used to stand very firm on all this have mostly retired these days.
But you guys who are going to work for nothing will push the boat out... No Questions asked. If the duty manager asks you to go, and leave 50 odd pax behind you'll do it. If they ask you to go on time without the pax ....you'll do it.
Words Fail me here but some that seem appropriate are and in no particular order'
Spineless.
Easy Cop Out.
LMF.
Lack of self esteem.
Selfish.
Want a quick fix to your social/financial problems.
Impatient.
Selling out your friends and colleagues.
The most important word you should focus on is.......................
APPRENTICESHIP !
The reason......? Too many Fast Commands, Too many Fast Trackers, Too many youngsters who's ability to fly an aircraft are in no doubt but whose life experiences are probably not quite up to speed yet and they get railroaded by all the micro Managers into doing it "their way" Chip.. Chip.. Chip.. away at turnaround times, oh you can go without catering this time, you don't need that extra cabin crew member on this sector; No, the WX radar wont be needed if you use the other runway etc ...etc...etc....... the guys who used to stand very firm on all this have mostly retired these days.
But you guys who are going to work for nothing will push the boat out... No Questions asked. If the duty manager asks you to go, and leave 50 odd pax behind you'll do it. If they ask you to go on time without the pax ....you'll do it.
Words Fail me here but some that seem appropriate are and in no particular order'
Spineless.
Easy Cop Out.
LMF.
Lack of self esteem.
Selfish.
Want a quick fix to your social/financial problems.
Impatient.
Selling out your friends and colleagues.
The most important word you should focus on is.......................
APPRENTICESHIP !
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Any spare change ?
Maybe after conducting a 'free' flight, you could stand at the exit door as the passengers are disembarking with your cap in hand ?
Might at least make something from the flight, even if its all small change
In the Company I work for it is common practice nowadays to be given heaps more responsibility or to cover a supervisory position for no extra pay or reward. The Company view it as a personal 'stretch' which "enhances your career development and propects".. I say Bollox.. its exploitation. I would never work for free, unless maybe I was making porn movies
Might at least make something from the flight, even if its all small change
In the Company I work for it is common practice nowadays to be given heaps more responsibility or to cover a supervisory position for no extra pay or reward. The Company view it as a personal 'stretch' which "enhances your career development and propects".. I say Bollox.. its exploitation. I would never work for free, unless maybe I was making porn movies
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The reason......? Too many Fast Commands, Too many Fast Trackers, Too many youngsters who's ability to fly an aircraft are in no doubt but whose life experiences are probably not quite up to speed yet
BOAC was putting people on the 707 from the day they joined over 40 years ago, and their successors have successfully done so since.
What this industry has is an ability to attract unsuitable candidates who are capable neither in the jet nor the Cessna instructional role, whose services are required due to growth in air transport, and are freely available since they have self-selected themselves and paid for their own training, where in the past they might have instead been rejected outright for sponsored training, and better performers now cannot afford it or move to the city, where the economics make sense.
Where the instructional route contains some stars, it also contains some berks who should never be in the air at all.
I expect the berk who placed this advert will never get a job due to an attitude that he/she has expressed, which is inappropriate in airline ops. Not too dissimilar from the berk in the letters page of the Log this month...
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For what it's worth, there are various levels of working for free (or below fair market rates). I include in that category, pilots who have retired with a pension and who just want to "top up" their money. While I can understand the sentiment, they are also depressing the pay of the rest of us who are trying to work towards having a decent retirement - something that is getting more and more difficult.
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Ok but you still have to fly jets in bad weather and night on NPA onto short runways in Greece etc. The computers don't help much then.
