'Will work for free'

[spitfire_007]

Vortex, I admire your passion and enthusiasm for Aviation, along with many other people but I would strongly advise, that you do not offer your services for free under any circumstances.

When you do find your first job in Commercial Aviation, I hope (if they will allow you to) you stand 'shoulder to shoulder' with your work colleagues through 'thick and thin'. Unions fight for workers rights, in many professions throughout the world to improve pay, conditions, contracts etc etc.

If you are offering your services for free, then you are going to be upsetting a lot of experienced, seasoned, wannabee aviation professionals...........Click on the link below.....

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/fact...3ytp5ufyn48ggp

Have a think about it, please

[scroggs]

VT, I seriously think you should consider giving up your aim of flying for a living and turn your enthusiasm into a hobby. Why? Because, with your attitude, you will probably never earn enough to call it a job, and would bugger up the livelihoods of those a little less starry-eyed about their living.

Go and become something else; a doctor, lawyer, estate agent, specialist security professional, or whatever. Firstly, you might earn enough to fly for fun - which, I suspect, would see you suffer fewer disillusionments than flying airliners and would give you greater satisfaction. Secondly, I'd rather you took your employer-friendly (some would say suicidal) tactics to another industry!

Scroggs

[Jonty]

I think we are starting to see why VT never gets an interview.

[class a]

I can sympathize a bit here I have over 3800hrs and 1100 turboprop time I have had a 3 year break from flying due to family reasons etc, I thought I might stand a good chance of getting a job.

I have sent my CV off and emailed and called every airline from here to the moon and nothing not even a interview or a maybe in the near future.

I always said when I was flying and getting paid for it that I would never buy a type rating and work for free, So would I now yes damm right if it meant I could have a job at the end of it.

Things have changed

[Northern Highflyer]

I could, if I wanted, go through a certain LoCo selection process along with hundreds of other low time wanabees. I haven't applied, but have a friend in the right place who has offered their assistance on many occasions. However, the figures just do not add up for me and I have refused the very kind offer. I just cannot / will not work for free.

This isn't a decision I have taken lightly, as I approach my second IR renewal date, being the wrong side of 35, and having only had one interview in the two years post qualification period. Yes I do want to do this for a living, and I have done all the CV sending, phone calls, networking, etc. Most of the people I trained with now have jobs, and yes I do feel like I am being left behind at times. I can understand why many feel that to "work for free" is the last throw of the dice, but it is a step too far for me, and if it a choice of that or never flying for a living, then so be it, a desk based job it will have to be. Don't underestimate my enthusiasm, it is as strong as anyone else's, but I want a job not a hobby. I will bide my time, and hope a second interview will pop up one day soon.

Flying is my dream job, but I'm a realist too.

I second that.

NH

[stuharri2002]

Oh Dear

I have to say that this post does not make nice reading!!

I have wanted to be a pilot for many years now but like many people I opted to take a safe route to start with. This basically meant getting a degree in aerospace. I then worked for a gas turbine company to pay off my student debts and get myself on the PPL ladder. This has taken many years and now I am in a position to 'go for it' - be it sponsored (whatever that means nowadays) or self funded. However, I have made the hardest decision of all - to give up my dream. Why? Well I have matured now and certain things have become more important to me. I won't work for free, and I won't accept a sponsorship deal that leaves me with 0 every month after I have paid back by loans and accomadation & food etc. Thats no kind of life! I also now have a partner to think about, and while she will support me in everything I want to do, I can't and won't ask her to put our life (not just financial) in jepody just to achieve my dream. Its a partnetship and thus you have to take into consideration their dreams and asperations as well.
I also have a traditonal view that getting into this industry should be about your personal abilities and not the amount of risk you are willing to take financially. My view is that the state the industry is in today is because of the amount of young people (well maybe not just the young) willing to take any T&C's and any fincancial risk. This maybe in part because of their age and maturity level. When I was 18 I certainly would have gone for the type of sponsorship that is offered today. At that age you aren't programmed to think of the bigger picture such as how to I pay it back, how do I afford to eat etc.
I know the people of this forum want to realise their dream but please think about the cost - both personal and monetary. Also think about the effect that accepting certain T&C's or even working for free, will have in the future - traditional sponsorships have died out and the ones that exist now are much like self funded anyway. If people continue to accept this type of entry into the industry then companys will continue to push the boundaries - who knows where it will end up. If they can get something for nothing then they will.

So what will I do now - well I am having a career change from being an engineer (a desk one!!) and am training to be an electrician. I will fly for fun in my spare time. Its the hardest decison I ever made but its the right one for me. While it wont allow to to afford ferrari's etc it will be a job which I will wake up and think "I can't wait to go to work' and it will enable me and my partner to live in comfort.

Anyway thats just my 2p's worth. (also please excuse my spelling - its not good today!)

cheers

Stu

[scruggs]

I’ve not yet begun my flying training, but in my position of not yet forking out the £50-100K, I find it shocking that some folk would offer their services for free. All I can imagine is that it’s a pledge made in desperation.

As much as I want to become a commercial pilot, the thought of working (it still is a form of employment isn’t it?) for free is something I’d never entertain. Maybe I’m looking at it from the wrong perspective. My opinion, as unvalued as it probably will be, is that to pay for ones own flying training for the aim of gaining employment as a professional pilot is classed an investment (and a huge one at that), with the hope of a return i.e. employment. To work for free is surely pursuing one of the most expensive hobbies known to man.

And this may sound a little big headed and self absorbed, but I value myself a little too much to work for free. Sure I know newly qualified pilots don’t earn a great deal, but I’d at least like to earn enough to pay the bills, put a roof over my head and food on the table.
Surely these people offering their services for free can’t be doing the industry, particularly the terms and conditions, any good. But that’s just my view, I don’t know all the facts as I don’t currently work in the industry. I don’t know how desperate some of these people are to make such a gesture. I pondered on the thought of putting myself in an employers position. Someone offering their services to me for free wouldn’t give me a great impression – but that’s me.

Cheers,
eP.

Edit: Just read the above post by Stu. I just want to wish you all the best in your new career. It's a brave decision you've made there mate, I hope everything works out.

[High Wing Drifter]

Stu,

I also have a traditonal view that getting into this industry should be about your personal abilities and not the amount of risk you are willing to take financially

I agree but it is the risk thing that gets me. Not that I've had any success, but the concept of a virtually fatalistic and blind acceptance of what amounts to massive and potentially debilitating financial risk and debt strikes me as the antithesis to the concept of planning minima diversions, points of no return, minimum fuel and the other veritable myriad of risk management activities that are core to a pilot's life. Finding one's self in the financial equivalent of coffin corner surely doesn't really mark one out as possessing the appropriate skills. Maybe I'm just naive.

Perhaps the ultimate irony is that some of the most suitable potential pilots are those who have walked away from this industry's requirements shaking their heads in disbelief.

[scroggs]

There are some interesting - and somewhat humbling - counterpoints to Vortex Thing's point of view here. Thank you, guys, you have done a great deal to restore my faith in common sense!

As you say, your training is a very expensive investment, from which you must achieve a decent rate of return. Flying for free abandons that investment, as well as ensuring that the remuneration you receive later in your career will be less than those currently employed. In other words, it's your own patch you're ****ting on.

Don't do it!

scroggs

[StraightLevel]

it's worrying that people are prepared to take such financial risks with borrowed money to get a start in this industry, and does beg the question as to what type of people are coming into this industry?

i was always told that airlines don't employ first officers, they employ future captains to sit in the right hand seat for a while.

with certain airlines this does not seem to be the case and it appears that the right hand seats of these airlines are being filled with irresponsible risk takers.

i hope that these guys learn a thing or two about responsibility during their type rating and line training.

i wonder if this will have any long term ramifications on the safety of these airlines with this type of person up the front?

StraightLevel

[fiftypercentn1]

uve ever heard about things called DREAMS?
whats this life if u dont try?

[Bandit650]

Interesting thread. I'm doing an ATPL but am able to do so with mimimal risk to my standard living (yes, I am very lucky I know) but I would like to make the following points if I may be so bold, as I am worried about how this thread might read to other wannabees who will be taking on massive financial risk

1. Some experienced airline pilots who speak on this forum seem to find ambition/dreams/starry eyes disturbing. Not exactly the spirit is it which got man to the moon is it.....hmmm? naive maybe, but humans need a driving force.
2. While I think people should be informed of the degree of risk they are taking, and its potential consequence to famly life, I suspect some shoud try harder to differentiate between what maybe their own personal negative experience and unbiased sound object advice which is lilkely to relevant to others.
3. If being a professional pilot really isn't "worth it"...lets hear exactly why not in more detail pls?!.....
4. I find it hard to believe employers in the airline industry are really that bad. They are employers like any other in industry, and are goverened by the same laws as the bank I am working for as I write. Yes, you are a resource - you need to realise that, but employers generally do not go out of their way to shaft people at their first opportunity. If I am wrong in the case of aviation ( I accept some locos may be borderline at best here), then pls enlighten me/us; but I sense employee paranoia here to be honest.
5. All this talk about not being able to feed the kids, put a roof over your head etc etc if it goes pear shaped...has go to be a complete exaggeration. C'mon this is 2007, no-one is going to starve if their dad fails to get a flying job surely?!!


There said my bit! comments welcome!

[Bealzebub]

You've heard of these things called Nightmares ? They are what happens when you can no longer pay the bills !

[Bandit650]

narh. My latest nightmare (sunday night) was about a nuclear holocaust in graphic detail. I actually woke up and put on the radio to make sure it wasnt a dream and I was still alive - and my eyes felt like they were hurting after witnessing the detonation flash...and I was in a miles away from my wife and kids. That is a nightmare dude...

[Bealzebub]

Sure "dude", but the difference is that sort of nightmare goes away when you wake up.

[Bandit650]

True, good point! But after waking up after my nightmare, life with unpaid bills surely wouldn't seem too bad..

[scroggs]

As long as you regard unpaid bills as an acceptable price for being employed as an airline pilot. I don't.

I have nothing against people's dreams, but, as I have said before, this is not 'X Factor'. It is a serious business, and one in which wannabes should reasonably be able to expect to get a return for their £100k (for some) investment in their future. Working for nothing, or for sub-standard returns, wil not achieve that - and it has serious ramifications for your future in the industry.

As for employers' attitudes, pilots are a necessity - and an expensive one. Anything an airline can do legally - and sometimes illegally - to reduce the costs involved with employing pilots will be entertained. One of the things airlines have to help them is that, like fame, airline flying is very attractive to the young (and maybe not so young) and impressionable, and therefore they can offer stupid terms and still get their hands ripped off by wannabes who have not yet fully appreciated what having a £100k debt really means, or what consequences their acceptance of such terms has for their own futures.

Pilots within unionised airlines can do something to slow the rot, but it's very difficult when major-league employers refuse to accept or recognise unions, and rely on those impressionable innocents to effectively pay to fill their pilots seats simply because, 'I just wanna fly, dude'.

As I've said before, it's not my pay and future you're destroying - it's your own.

Scroggs

[babolat]

Fully agree with Scroggs here.

If the "working for free" trend comes into play, then imagine what will happen in a few years...

I would compare this with the recent idea of paying for your type rating. One airline started it off, wannabes did not refuse, and of course the other airlines liked this original idea.

Becoming a pilot is not a birthright. It is a job like any other job i.e. you work to get paid and make a living. Come on guys.

[Callsign Kilo]

Without doubt, what Scroggs says is true and the airlines play on this. However it is not the wannabes with debts that I really worry about, as you would hope that anyone entering this profession is sensible enough to work out repayment plans and the ramifications of having a bank or a finance company breathing down your neck? Bare in mind, I say HOPE!!
It is the people that have access to large sums of capital that does not have to be paid back. There are a lot of these people out there, and while I have nothing personally against them, you would be fool for disregarding the fact that they have the opportunity to accept lower terms and conditions in order to jump into the right hand seat. I accept any backlash that this may bring, however I stand by it as a matter of fact!

[Bandit650]

Scroggs: Yes, I see the point there. Not unique to aviation though of course.

My current work faces a degree of competition from "offshore" companies in India/Far East, where they can employ the same skill for a fraction of the cost. But, in general, it doesnt happen; largely because they need the experience factor..i.e we make sure we offer a higher quality service to the lo-cost alternative (and ultimately turns out better value).

So, isn't this therefore also about, at one level, the airline's belief (rightly or wrongly) that the job really doesnt need experienced staff anymore - and that experience no longer brings anything relevant to the job? Is this a valid observation? Do the airlines not believe a more experienced pilot can perform the job "better" i.e more efficiently, than an inexperienced pilot? Surely the pilot's decision making on the day can bring a positive contribution to the profitability of the flight (after safety obviously), and by hiring and paying more for, experienced pilots they are actually saving money?? Either they are stupid and/or very short-sighted or the days of skilled flying really are over and its the pilots who are simply the last to admit it??

Comments on a postcard pls. I hope its the former of the two propositions!