The Irish invite US pilots to work in Europe...

[MOR]

Anyone with a BAe 146/AVRO RJ rating has probably had a phone call by now, from some agency or other recruiting for Cityjet. This due to Cityjet acquiring 17 or so RJs from Mesaba in the USA.

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

Naturally, Irish (or European) pilots would never be allowed reciprocal rights.

I see this as a dangerous precedent, particularly as the US is so agressively protectionist.

Discuss...

[Looooong haul]

Originally Posted by MOR

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

And the proof is where?

[haughtney1]

MOR mate...its been going on for years, the Irish CAA have a well deserved reputation for "flexible" regulations.
There are plenty of US drivers flying around on contract with a well know Irish low-cost 737 operator.

[MOR]

And the proof is where?

Ask any of the agencies... Sigmar, Direct Personnel, PAS, PARC probably in there somewhere as well... it's common knowledge.

All they require is a validation and a work permit. The validation is a paper exercise (as is the work permit).

[speedrestriction]

Irish CAA

Irish CAA

How about IAA (Irish Aviation Authority)

sr

[CamelhAir]

the Irish CAA have a well deserved reputation for "flexible" regulations.

Ain't that the truth. The key to understanding the situtation to understand the connection between the management of the airlines and the IAA. All ex-Air Corps, all buddy buddies. In this particular case, the fact that one the key Sigmar figures is also ex-IAA and currently of Cityjet would no doubt be contributory. Rumour in Dublin also has it that Sigmar, and not Cityjet, own the new RJ's and are in turn leasing them to cityjet. Apparently the top dogs in cityjet also own sigmar. Nice little set up methinks.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by MOR

Anyone with a BAe 146/AVRO RJ rating has probably had a phone call by now, from some agency or other recruiting for Cityjet. This due to Cityjet acquiring 17 or so RJs from Mesaba in the USA.

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

Naturally, Irish (or European) pilots would never be allowed reciprocal rights.

I see this as a dangerous precedent, particularly as the US is so agressively protectionist.

Discuss...

Check your history. Because the cost of training in Europe was more expensive in Europe, pilots came to the US for advance pilot... and they still do. Pilots obtain their JAA and FAA certificates under parallel courses without duplicative check rides for each rating.

In the past and currently, pilots from all over Europe come to Florida to train with airline sponsored flight schools Gulfstream Academy, Comair Academy, and Flight Safety. Pilots train in Arizona with Mesa Flight School. After training these pilots have secured with US regional carriers such as American Eagle, Continental Express, Mesa Airlines, ASA… to name a few. Some have gone onto the majors such as American, Continental, and United… again to name a few.

While European pilots were displacing US pilots from said jobs, it was next to impossible for a US pilot to get a job in Europe.

Besides, why would you want to get a job flying the same equipment for half the pay?

So in the long run fair is fair… wouldn’t you agree?

[flat-tire]

Most of the Mesaba crews that I know would not take up that offer. They don't want to move from Minnesota, no place to ride snowmobile in Ireland. There are too many jobs in the US for regional pilots. Soon to be shortage. Have a look on climbto350.com. Lots of jobs from corporate to float planes. Someday the US airlines will have to give out work permits just to find pilots. They already employ foreign cabin crew.

Also, why would someone in Europe want to fly in the US for $1800 a month (75 hours pm). Maybe you fancy the 8 sector days.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by flat-tire

Also, why would someone in Europe want to fly in the US for $1800 a month (75 hours pm). Maybe you fancy the 8 sector days.

Hey... let's not forget the value meals at McDonalds, Taco Bell, KFC, and Burger King.

[MOR]

captjns

I don't believe for a minute that there are any Europeans flying for the US majors (or the regionals for that matter) who are not now US citizens or at least Green Card holders. Any American who came to Europe and gained EU citizenship would be in the same position. There might have been some temporary, very limited placements from the training schools, but nothing more than that. In any event, those pilots are not flying on validated Euro licences, they will all hold FAA licences.

The same equipment for half the pay beats no equipment for no pay! Not likely to be true, though - If flat tire is correct, the pay is a hell of a lot better in Europe.

According to Direct Personnel, they have quite a few US applicants wanting to go to Ireland.

Nothing fair about it.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by MOR

captjnsThere might have been some temporary, very limited placements from the training schools, but nothing more than that. In any event, those pilots are not flying on validated Euro licences, they will all hold FAA licences.

The same equipment for half the pay beats no equipment for no pay! Not likely to be true, though - If flat tire is correct, the pay is a hell of a lot better in Europe.

According to Direct Personnel, they have quite a few US applicants wanting to go to Ireland.

Nothing fair about it.

As I pointed out in my previous post, pay in Europe is far better than in the US at this point.

What you believe or don't is not important... but facts are facts.

Yes... you do need a "Green Card" to work in the US. But again, pilots who came to the US in the '80s and '90s from Europe were able to get a green card, learn how to fly at much cheaper prices, and yes also get jobs with carriers. I can tell you that there are number of pilots from Europe flying for American Eagle, living in Puerto Rico. There are a number of pilots from the Scandinavian countries who attended Gulfstream Academy who flew for Continental Exress and went on to Continental Airlines.

Obtaining an FAA certificate on conversion is far easier than the other way.

Hey what's the big deal anyway? There are more jobs in Europe than their are pilots. Any money coming out of your pocket? Are you being denied employment over a Yank? If you meet the minimums and if not already employed, you should be able to get a job. And if and when the tides should turn again when there is a pilot shortage in the US, maybe you can come on over... if you want.

[MOR]

OK well you can have your "facts" and I'll have mine. You haven't offered any evidence to support your 'facts", so let's call then what they really are - supposition. How do you know that these pilots didn't have relatives in the US who enabled them to get citizenship? That is certainly highly likely amongst Scandinavians.

I'm not being disadvantaged - you wouldn't catch me flying for Cityjet - but I have a good friend who has been told that he is only going to get a job once all the Americans have been employed. A deal has clearly been done.

[flat-tire]

Sounds like Mesaba has some good negotiators. Maybe someone should put a stop to the DEALS.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by MOR

I'm not being disadvantaged - you wouldn't catch me flying for Cityjet - but I have a good friend who has been told that he is only going to get a job once all the Americans have been employed. A deal has clearly been done.

Not to doubt the validity of your friend's statement, but I along with others on this forum would like to know within Cityjet would make that exact statement. I can't believe for the life of me that anyone let alone a carrier within the EU would not hire a local, sort to say, rather than a non EU resident. I know that there is the US equivalent to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in Ireland that would like to get their hands on the individual that made that declaration.

[bafanguy]

Originally Posted by MOR

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

MOR,
Why is the Irish CAA doing this...and what do you suggest as an alternative ?

[MOR]

Well I gather we should really call them the IAA...

Simple, really. There aren't a lot of 146/RJ drivers around in the first place, and even fewer who are current within the last 3-6 months, which is what Cityjet have required for at least the last year or so. Cityjet clearly believe that non-current 146/RJ pilots pose a training risk, so they would rather have nice, current Americans. Once that resource dries up, they may well start taking the un-current guys, in fact they will probably end up training a whole bunch from scratch. There simply aren't that many rated people around any more, most have long since moved to the 737 or A320 or are quite happy to stay where they are, and get trained on new equipment as more 146s are retired.

like to know within Cityjet would make that exact statement

It didn't come from Cityjet, it came from (more than one) agency. However it is obvious that Cityjet/Sigmar have made an approach to the government to get this done, and I would imagine an exception was made as a result of a really dark picture being drawn by Cityjet. They are going to have problems crewing all those aircraft, irrespective of where the crews come from.

Most Equal Opportunity legislation allows for the case where a company can show that there are no suitably qualified locals who can do the job. In this case, it would be relatively easy to demonstrate that there weren't sufficient qualified and current pilots in IRELAND to fill the seats, but I doubt they would have to make their case for the whole of Europe.

The alternative would be to invest in a little extra training for those who are rated but not current, and who are EU citizens. The upside is that they are not as likely to get sick of CDG or DUB and want to go home.

[Dualbleed]

The people I know who has gotten a job in the majors and other companies in the US has either married or won the green card lottery. The marry thing also work for a US citizen to work in the EU.

[susoal]

Originally Posted by MOR

captjns
I don't believe for a minute that there are any Europeans flying for the US majors (or the regionals for that matter) who are not now US citizens or at least Green Card holders. Any American who came to Europe and gained EU citizenship would be in the same position. There might have been some temporary, very limited placements from the training schools, but nothing more than that. In any event, those pilots are not flying on validated Euro licences, they will all hold FAA licences.
The same equipment for half the pay beats no equipment for no pay! Not likely to be true, though - If flat tire is correct, the pay is a hell of a lot better in Europe.
According to Direct Personnel, they have quite a few US applicants wanting to go to Ireland.
Nothing fair about it.

You are absolutely right, UNLESS you are a US citizen or have a Green Card, there is NO WAY any airline in the USA will employ you.
I flew there for almost 11 years (green card holder) and I can tell you they wont hire you. As per pay, consider yourselves like. Pay as been going down since the aftermath of 9/11, (personally I took a 30% pay cut in ´01), and there are thousands of pilots without a job...
Grass is always greener on the other side......I think not.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by MOR

Well I gather we should really call them the IAA...

What's with the anti-American slant dude?

Originally Posted by MOR

Simple, really. There aren't a lot of 146/RJ drivers around in the first place, and even fewer who are current within the last 3-6 months, which is what Cityjet have required for at least the last year or so.

There are a bunch of 146's flying around Europe. Why don't these pilots want to fly for Cityjet? By the way... are you current and qualified on the 146? If not then what's your beef?

Originally Posted by MOR

Cityjet clearly believe that non-current 146/RJ pilots pose a training risk, so they would rather have nice, current Americans. Once that resource dries up, they may well start taking the un-current guys, in fact they will probably end up training a whole bunch from scratch.

Is this your opinion or fact? If so then show us the facts and save us the suppositions. Again I ask... how does this effect you if you are currently employed with another carrier... or you are not typed on the 146?

Originally Posted by MOR

There simply aren't that many rated people around any more, most have long since moved to the 737 or A320 or are quite happy to stay where they are, and get trained on new equipment as more 146s are retired.

So again... I ask why do you have a problem of expats (Americans especially) coming over to fly the 146 or any other aircraft for that matter? Is it taking food out of the mouth of you, your wife, if you are married, or children, if you have children?

Originally Posted by MOR

It didn't come from Cityjet, it came from (more than one) agency. However it is obvious that Cityjet/Sigmar have made an approach to the government to get this done, and I would imagine an exception was made as a result of a really dark picture being drawn by Cityjet. They are going to have problems crewing all those aircraft, irrespective of where the crews come from.

So you don't have a direct account of the facts or statements? You are relying on statements from individuals who are not part or management. All this is nothing but hear-say.

Originally Posted by MOR

Most Equal Opportunity legislation allows for the case where a company can show that there are no suitably qualified locals who can do the job. In this case, it would be relatively easy to demonstrate that there weren't sufficient qualified and current pilots in IRELAND to fill the seats, but I doubt they would have to make their case for the whole of Europe.

So... how does the effect you... if you are not typed on the 146?

Originally Posted by MOR

The alternative would be to invest in a little extra training for those who are rated but not current, and who are EU citizens. The upside is that they are not as likely to get sick of CDG or DUB and want to go home.

Who are you to say that non EU individuals would get sick of CDG or DUB? They are both great places... great people, and pubs. What more can one ask for MOR?

[MOR]

Well I gather we should really call them the IAA...

What's with the anti-American slant dude?

How do you get "anti-American" from that? In any case, this has nothing to do with Americans, it's to do with the Irish.

Why don't these pilots want to fly for Cityjet?

Terms and conditions, mainly.

s this your opinion or fact?

Fact. I got it directly from a Cityjet exec when I asked last year.

Again I ask... how does this effect you if you are currently employed with another carrier... or you are not typed on the 146?

None of this has anything to do with people currently employed elsewhere, it is to do with those who are NOT employed but ARE type-rated, but are not current.

So again... I ask why do you have a problem of expats (Americans especially) coming over to fly the 146 or any other aircraft for that matter? Is it taking food out of the mouth of you, your wife, if you are married, or children, if you have children?

Geez... RTFQ! The problem is that Americans WILL be taking food out of the mouths of the people described above. Quite apart from the principle.

So you don't have a direct account of the facts or statements? You are relying on statements from individuals who are not part or management. All this is nothing but hear-say.

I have spoken directly to the agencies, who are simply regurgitating what they have been told by their client. You don't have to be "management" to be able to read a memo - although these people are management-level. Not good enough for you?

So... how does the effect you... if you are not typed on the 146?

I am, but that isn't the point. The point is that Cityjet are engineering a position that allows them to hire cheap US labour on the basis of a faulty picture of the pool of available pilots. I said all this already.

Who are you to say that non EU individuals would get sick of CDG or DUB? They are both great places... great people, and pubs. What more can one ask for MOR?

In the 20 years I have been involved in airline flying, I must have trained 40 or 50 foreign nationals for pilot positions in airlines I have worked for.
Very few of them lasted a year before they went home (mostly Canadians).