The Irish invite US pilots to work in Europe...

[haughtney1]

Amex, I think your missing the point...MOR is frustrated at the Irish CAA (IAA etc big deal!!) that in order for them to keep costs to an absolute minimum for their chums at S*ity-jet, they bend the rules to suit themselves!

As is usual in these kind of arguments, things tend to get personal, however, there does exist a very real perception that in the area of working Visa's and labour laws the US is master of double standards...on the one hand being protectionist, and on the other wanting to impose their regulation on foreign based US registered aircraft. (aka UPS, Polar, and more recently Atlas in the UK where the state department got involved trying to ride rough shot over a host of local UK rules)

[captjns]

I don’t mean to belabor the point… but suggesting that the IAA is bending the rules is also to perhaps suggesting that they are compromising safety in order to accelerate both the hiring and training process in order to accommodate Cityjet.

As previously stated, pilots in the US have had enough bad treatment when it comes to pay, benefit, and QOL. No one is going to uproot themselves, let alone their families to come to fly for Cityjet to experience the same treatment. In that respect MOR has not worries.

If there are no pilots to fly the planes, what are the airlines to do? Reduce their fleets? They can't do that. Look at EK, Singapore, Cathay, Eva... to name a few. I just don't know where the resentment is coming from. Why would anyone want to even think about going to the US to fly. They starting pay is less than what cabin crew in Europe earn. When and if there is a shortage of pilots in the US, the labor laws will be eased up as they were in the '80s and '90s, and once again there will be an influx of pilots from overseas. But in the mean time I don't understand what the problem is.

I don’t like individuals getting involved in a discussion to which they have no right to debate the point since they are not remotely affected. MOR about the insults… get a thicker skin. After all, you did cast the first stone my friend.

[MOR]

haughtney1 gets it. Good job mate.

No one is going to uproot themselves, let alone their families to come to fly for Cityjet to experience the same treatment.

Really? Interesting, then, that the agencies I have spoken to have a "significant" number of applications from Mesaba crews. Apparently, enough to cover the first ten aircraft or so. So they tell, me, anyway, but as they haven't put it in writing, perhaps it is all just a figment of my imagination...

I just don't know where the resentment is coming from.

You soon would if the US allowed an influx of (for example) Eastern European pilots, who would work for peanuts and would kill to get the benefits of life in the US. That is exactly why so many of them are moving into companies like Ryanair... because Ryanair is having trouble finding experienced crews in the EU. They would rather take people with a marginal grasp of English, than train some people themselves (although they are now so desperate that they are offering DECs and a bond, rather than insisting on a type rating).

I don’t like individuals getting involved in a discussion to which they have no right to debate the point since they are not remotely affected.

Then why are you involved in this discussion? I am involved because I have a close friend who is personally affected by this. What's your reason? If you don't have one, perhaps you should butt out.

[haughtney1]

I don’t like individuals getting involved in a discussion to which they have no right to debate the point since they are not remotely affected

Perhaps we should stifle debate...discussion is a bad thing?

I don’t mean to belabor the point… but suggesting that the IAA is bending the rules is also to perhaps suggesting that they are compromising safety in order to accelerate both the hiring and training process in order to accommodate City-jet

No..Im alleging that certain authority members are using their positions to benefit their associates/friends in the named organization, after all it wouldn't be the first time that this has happened with certain Irish regulators.
I have not suggested that safety is being compromised (that is your own extrapolation), I am certain the US crews are adequately trained.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by MOR

Then why are you involved in this discussion? I am involved because I have a close friend who is personally affected by this. What's your reason? If you don't have one, perhaps you should butt out.

Well to begin with I have a right to work in the EU... that's why I'm involved. I have first hand experience and knowledge in both the US and the EU pilot needs as well as salaries. I am not half way round the world getting involved with anyone elses arguments. So perhaps sir, you should butt out.

Now it sounds like you have issues with former Eastern Block Nation pilots. Whose next... the Asians. You are clueless about pay issues for Eastern Block pilots in Europe. They are normal wages as are entry level or DECs for Ryanair, Easyjet and alike. The only requriement is that we secure our right to work in any EU country and take the required exams.

[haughtney1]

You are clueless about pay issues for Eastern Block pilots in Europe. They are normal wages as are entry level or DECs for Ryanair, Easyjet and alike

Tut tut, do a bit of research Captjns....you will find with Ryanair that they employ on an individual basis....the basic salary you are correct about, however the sector pay is a major area where they take the p*ss. There are plenty of eastern bloc pilots currently flying for RYR that are not even recieving sector pay! (makes up around 50% of your take home as you probably well know).

Easyjet are a different matter, they do however only pay you 90% for the first 6 months.
As one that has to try to understand the multitude of accents in UK airspace..I for one would like some of the eastern block guys to attend a few english classes

[captjns]

Originally Posted by haughtney1

I have not suggested that safety is being compromised (that is your own extrapolation), I am certain the US crews are adequately trained.

Other expats that came over with me ha an average of 25 years airline experience on 75 ton and greater aircraft with at least 12,000 PIC on such type of equipment. The airline I work for does have high standards as far as DECs are concerned. I was not extrapolating any hypothesis, merely wondering what the general consensus was among pilots here... albeit the negative press that Ryanair has been getting.

Uprooting ourselves to come over to Europe for better opportuities was a very hard decision to make. It was a matter of economics and survival. Expats are contract pilots, and not employees of the companies they fly for. We will be the first to be layed off when and if the time comes. Hopefully I will be retired when that day comes.

The US experienced a similar shortage in the '80s and '90s, during major expansions, which came to a halt even before 9/11. The same rapid grwoth is occurring in Europe now... lots of planes, and nobody to fly them. After all airlines don't make money with their aircraft sitting on the ground... thus the need for ready current qualified crews that are eligible for a quick conversion course. Asian carriers are just beginning to experience the growth at this time... particularly in China.

LCCs are jockeying for position to be the survivors when the competition balloon bursts... resulting in lower wages and furloughs.

[captjns]

Originally Posted by haughtney1

Tut tut, do a bit of research Captjns....you will find with Ryanair that they employ on an individual basis....the basic salary you are correct about, however the sector pay is a major area where they take the p*ss. There are plenty of eastern bloc pilots currently flying for RYR that are not even recieving sector pay! (makes up around 50% of your take home). So if you are ill-informed enough to believe and post on a website what you think you know about RYR, perhaps you need to do a little more research Or failing that, ask who ever told you about RYR to explain sector pay...sim costs..hotac away from base etc etc
Easyjet are a different matter, they do however only pay you 90% for the first 6 months.
As one that has to try to understand the multitude of accents in UK airspace..I for one would like some of the eastern block guys to attend a few english classes

Yes I heard stories of 14 people in a class with 14 different contracts... very confusing and leads to resentment. There is a contractor who funnels pilots to RYR where the pay is very standard with no arguments.

I know from conversations at local pubs that there were major issues about sector pay for new hired F/Os... 2 stripers. They were to recieve half sector pay for the first six months of flying after being checked out and full there after. Some of these guys had to have sit downs with certain people to get this matter resolved. They were saying that the new Director of Ground Ops in EGSS is an OK guy and got the matter resolved.

But on a whole the sector pay program sucks. From what I understand, they schedule the sectors about 5 to 10 minutes short of what that sector should actually be.

Yes I also agree the language is also a problem with not only RYR guys but Easyjet, Globespan... just to name a few.

At then end of the day... it appears to be a free market society in the airline industry in Europe, India and Asia as well. When one get fed up to the point they can't take it any more then they just move on to the next and so on.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

MOR is frustrated at the Irish CAA (IAA etc big deal!!) that in order for them to keep costs to an absolute minimum for their chums at S*ity-jet, they bend the rules to suit themselves!

I have had no direct dealing with the IAA although I do tend to agree that they are seen in Europe as being some Authority of Convenience (along with TL reg aircrafts).
Yet from reading MOR's posts, I was under the impression that he was having a go at the Yanks flying overhere and therefore was directing his hits at these guys who are actually nothing more than working wherever there is work meeting their T&Cs requirements as well as the local authorities ones.
Actually thinking about it (and it is a genuine question), rather than blaming the IAA, is it not the Immigration/Home office departments who should take the flak?
After all, they are the ones granting the legal right to stay and work in their country of authority.

I have worked in more than one country and hope to do that again as I see the possibility to do that as one of the beautiful things coming with the job. I got to experience different lifestyle and frankly I can only wish that to happen to others.
So sometimes it bothers me when people are having a go at others for stealing "their" mate's jobs blah blah blah.
If it is legal and sanctionned by the relevant authorities then why not? Anyone unhappy about it should vote for a different government hoping they ll change things (as if any government would do anything else other than filling their pockets and own aspirations).

I do agree though that the IAA seem to be the softy one amongst Euro Aviation Authorities (and some know how to use it).

[JW411]

I seem to remember that BA had a bunch of Ameican pilots flying a couple of BAe 146s out of Belfast some years ago?

[MOR]

Well to begin with I have a right to work in the EU... that's why I'm involved.

Oh good, we are equally qualified. Except of course that I am actually an EU citizen as well. The location from which I am typing is irrelevant.

Now it sounds like you have issues with former Eastern Block Nation pilots. Whose next... the Asians.

Comprehension problems again... I have no issue with any ethnic group, but it is a simple fact that the two groups you mention will work for less than the going rate, just to secure residency in a country with a better economic outlook. Why do you think the economy of California is so heavily dependent on wetback labour? Same principle. Whether Ryanair pay them fairly is a moot point, and you have to look at the wider picture in any case. My sole concern with some of the Eastern Europeans I have come across in LCCs is their poor grasp of english.

You are clueless about pay issues for Eastern Block pilots in Europe. They are normal wages as are entry level or DECs for Ryanair, Easyjet and alike.

So are you, it seems:

Yes I heard stories of 14 people in a class with 14 different contracts... very confusing and leads to resentment.

Well, which is it?

AMEX

Yet from reading MOR's posts, I was under the impression that he was having a go at the Yanks flying overhere and therefore was directing his hits at these guys who are actually nothing more than working wherever there is work meeting their T&Cs requirements as well as the local authorities ones.

Not at all. I have no issues whatsoever with pilots working wherever they legally can, and in many ways professional pilots are true internationalists. My ONLY issue is with national authorities opening the doors to foreign pilots when there is already a pool of qualifed people in their own back yard, and where the reasons for doing so are purely economic. As far as taking it up with Irish Immigration, they are simply responding to a request from both the airline in question and the IAA. As others have noted, there is a cosy little club operating here.

So sometimes it bothers me when people are having a go at others for stealing "their" mate's jobs blah blah blah.
If it is legal and sanctionned by the relevant authorities then why not?

Firstly, for the reasons stated above, but secondly - and more importantly - because there is no reciprocity. If the US opened its doors to foreign pilots on the same basis that the Irish apprently have, I would be more than happy to say no more on the subject. But, of course, they won't.

Anyone unhappy about it should vote for a different government hoping they ll change things (as if any government would do anything else other than filling their pockets and own aspirations).

Precisely...

[747boy]

http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0713/cityjet.html

[corklad]

As the one irish person, from what i can see in this argument, I am going to stand up for the IAA. They are perfectly entitled to offer validations for people to fly Irish registered aircraft if they so choose. Iceland does it too as can any JAA country if they wish. How is it that the english are sooo chummy with the JAA and europe when it comes to flying while at the same time hate the EU!! Perhaps the CAA in gatwick should stop being such complete A-holes about letting europeans with forgein licenses come home and fly, it may stop the very situation you are complaining about!!! I did my training in USA, Cananda and have ratings on the 737 and king air and the CAA treated me like a lepper all because of their outragous JAR regs!! Last time I looked boeings were made in seattle!! I guess they build extra special ones for the UK?? how do you expect one to fork out another 64K to start flying from scratch? Also, why is it that any new member EU state can automatically convert their national license to JAA and I cant even get a look in?? I remember standing in gatwick next to an eastern european bloke who could barely string a sentence together in english, and the CAA hapily converted his national license for him, all because his country just joined the EU, he told me he was off to join easyjet!!! Go figure?????
If we in Ireland choose to use a bit of common sense to solve our companies problems then we have every right too. The CAA can do what they want in england and we will do what we want in ireland. And before you rag on the Irish set up you should look at how oxford and cabair have been in league with the CAA for yrs...the schools write the ridiculous rules to keep students from having a choice of training else where. thats called monopoly and protectionism! Dont you think if BA needed pilots desperately the CAA would bend....you bet your ass they would.
It all comes down to money. no bucks, no buck rogers! If airlines cannot make money they will go bust and if they go bust there is no need for pilots. as for americans flying in europe i have no problems with that at all. lots and i mean lots of european blokes get their work permits to work in the US or Asia or elsewhere, lots of people like me got screwed when the JAA was introduced and had to look else where becasue we werent welcome in JAA land. It amazes me how many pilots here have no clue about running a business though. It all about making money. Airlines need to make money to stay aflot...they dont care how they meet their quota, just as long as the can make a profit. pilots and pilot nationalities have nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They just need able bodies to fly their shiney planes and make money for them!!!!

[MercenaryAli]

Well said CORKLAD

[ - I remember standing in gatwick next to an eastern european bloke who could barely string a sentence together in english, and the CAA hapily converted his national license for him, all because his country just joined the EU, he told me he was off to join easyjet!!! Go figure?????

A thread of sense CORKLAD, particularly with regard to the almost non existent English language ability (or lack thereof ) of your Eastern European that now can fly any aircraft registered in the EU (spit!) anywhere in the world.
the Irish CAA (IAA) are taking a sensible and pragmatic view of a scarcity of well qualified and competent pilots.
Long may it last!

[princeton]

Well said Corklad

Yes Corklad I agree totally . I can't see why JARland accuse the US of protectionism:

I am Irish and came over to the US a couple of years ago, got my FAA licences, instructed here for a year where I met quite a few foreign flight instructors (mostly German, Austrian and Canadian) who were sponsored for work visas by the flight schools.

I moved on to a Regional flying out of Newark (the one with a fleet of 274 EMB145's). I have flown with a ton of Europeans there: Spanish, Swedish, English, French, Irish; everyone loves it (no BA style forced draft or anything of the sort).

Yes, as FO the pay is not good but you can upgrade in two years and anyway the loans you have to pay off are only a fraction of what they would have been for training in Europe. At any rate you can move on to a major if you want in another year or two after that once you have a 1000 hrs turbine PIC.

The only glitch I have seen recently is that the Major that most of our pilots go to is rumoured to prefer not to hire non-US citizens because of the "TSA regs" i.e. just a whole load of hassle getting people authorized by Homeland Security - I am sure that'll change when they start trying to hire 60-70 pilots a month after the summer is over.

Anyway, by that time, after five or six years here most people will have their green card and close to getting US Citizenship, I understand that is not something as easy to do in Red tape-land.

[Gnirren]

It's interesting to me how the US government is so protective of it's market that even in the face of a pilot shortage they will not make it easier for properly certified and rated europeans to enter the country and work. I swear sometimes I think apart from marriage or winning the lottery the only way to get into the states is to float ashore on an innertube from Cuba.

Personally I prefer flying in the US over europe and I'd do that any day. Unlike europe where aviation in general is treated like something nasty, in the states I found it receives a lot of attention. Flying in general is promoted and the americans take a very practical approach to it. Just the fact that you can carry a pocket version of the latest regs in your flight bag to me is excellent, instead of this obscure binder system we have in JAA land. Here flying is meant to be difficult, with burning hoops to jump through just for the sake of it. Make it cost a lot, and make it difficult and we'll see who prevails kind of thing I guess.

The cheesecake is better over there too...

[dartagnan]

Originally Posted by Gnirren

the only way to get into the states is to float ashore on an innertube from Cuba.

No visa: try the border between Canada /US, 2000 miles of forrest.

once in the USA, you can apply for free food stamps,free SSN, free education,free housing, free health care,free transportation, free loan, free compensation, free attorney, free asylum, free green card,free nationalisation, ...

If you go to the USA with a visa, you got nothing, even deportation is at your own cost.

[Flymix]

Lets be clear regarding protectionism and pilot jobs...the licensing laws in JAA land are a form of protectionism.

It is a given that you need the right to work in a country (citizenship, greecard/visa) before an airline will offer you employment.

However, it is MUCH easier for a European with the right to live in the USA to convert licenses and gain employment than it is for a Yank to convert and work in Europe. It would cost a European about $5000 (maybe) and a month or two to get convert a JAA ATP for a FAA one. It would cost an American ATP holder about $20,000 and at least a year to go JAA.

Flying in the USA for an airline for just over a year, I have flown with Captains and known FO's from from Sweden, Finland, England, Jamaica, Argentina, Japan, S Korea and Columbia. Many moved to the US for a better career path (how times change!) How many European crews have non-Europeans there? And how many are in Europe for family reasons and HAD to convert to get a job (as opposed to going to JAA land to get a job and then getting married for example)

[MOR]

I can't see why JARland accuse the US of protectionism:

Simple. Because the US would never offer reciprocal recognition of a JAA licence.

who were sponsored for work visas by the flight schools.

Well of course they were, it is simply a device to make money by attracting foreign students.

I have flown with a ton of Europeans there

...all of whom have the right to live and work there.

Lets be clear regarding protectionism and pilot jobs...the licensing laws in JAA land are a form of protectionism.

ALL licensing laws are a form of protectionism! It is the level to which each authority will recognise other qualifications, that matters. In this case, the Irish are alllowing US licence holders an immediate recognition of their licence, simply because it is economically expedient for an airline based there. Now, does the US do that? Nope. Not a chance in hell of that happening.

The Irish are simply a flag of convenience.

[corklad]

MOR I think you are missing the point! The IAA are giving validations for ANY ICAO license which meet the airlines requirments to fly their planes. It doesnt matter if its aussie, kiwi or FAA. Ok I guess you dont like the united states...whats new in england these days??? By the way the CAA in England have been letting FAA people fly BA/ATLAS 747's for yrs now (same deal)...so I think you know where you can put your flag of convenience Your logic seems backwards here, you want everyone in europe to make it so ridiculously impossible to transfer their licenses like in the UK! I think you are getting confussed too about the right to work and the transfer of a license. It doest matter which country you go to. If you cant get a visa or work permit then it doest matter about transfering your license. If you are able to get a green card to work in the states then license transfer is a fairly straight forward process and will cost no more than a few thousand dollars. Nobody swaps like for like...except maybe some of the african nations. however if you manage to get an EU passport the transfer process is a nightmare...no recripoicol recognition. just 14 exams and start flying again from scratch...I wonder what arrogant bright spark thought that one up?? Protestionism at it extreme I say! anyway this argument is getting tedious, new thread!!