TIME TO STOP PAYING
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pay away !
How long will it be before you realize that the worsening terms and conditions you are likely to experience are because those coming up from below you are also happy to pay and fly for nothing. Who can blame employers who decide to follow this route since it will further slash their costs.
Your monetary worth to these employers is measured in what they have to pay to employ you. It shouldn't take them to long to realize that you are bargain basement material, and when you start to demand money, get rid of you and move on to the next person who will also work for free. Still you can always move on to the next employer who is presumably by then also wondering why he needs to pay you when people will work for free.
Terms and conditions for low experience F/O's are already falling to reflect the plentiful supply of low hour/ no experience wannabees. Those new reality T&C's are also spreading up through the scales.
Bit of a bleak outlook if you were hoping to make a good living out of this ?
How long will it be before you realize that the worsening terms and conditions you are likely to experience are because those coming up from below you are also happy to pay and fly for nothing. Who can blame employers who decide to follow this route since it will further slash their costs.
Your monetary worth to these employers is measured in what they have to pay to employ you. It shouldn't take them to long to realize that you are bargain basement material, and when you start to demand money, get rid of you and move on to the next person who will also work for free. Still you can always move on to the next employer who is presumably by then also wondering why he needs to pay you when people will work for free.
Terms and conditions for low experience F/O's are already falling to reflect the plentiful supply of low hour/ no experience wannabees. Those new reality T&C's are also spreading up through the scales.
Bit of a bleak outlook if you were hoping to make a good living out of this ?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Belgrade
Age: 40
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Longchop
Sarcasm?
wow, this thread amazes me! I knew people were desperate/crazy but this is just amazing. One thing all the people who pay for TR's must think about is the people on the bottome of the ladder flying TPs.
I fly a TP and have never paid for a TR. I got my first job with 235hrs and alot of persistence in a ground based job. I chose to start at the bottom and work my way up but what i didnt realise is how much of an affect a 250hr newbie is having when they pay for their own TR.
Look at it this way, I have 1000hr multi crew and now want to move onto a jet but I am one of those people who refuse to pay for a TR but all the people who are paying for TR's and working for free are killing it for the rest of us!Therefore i am now struggling to find a new step on the ladder.
Personally i'd be too ashamed to admit to paying for my TR!
wow, this thread amazes me! I knew people were desperate/crazy but this is just amazing. One thing all the people who pay for TR's must think about is the people on the bottome of the ladder flying TPs.
I fly a TP and have never paid for a TR. I got my first job with 235hrs and alot of persistence in a ground based job. I chose to start at the bottom and work my way up but what i didnt realise is how much of an affect a 250hr newbie is having when they pay for their own TR.
Look at it this way, I have 1000hr multi crew and now want to move onto a jet but I am one of those people who refuse to pay for a TR but all the people who are paying for TR's and working for free are killing it for the rest of us!Therefore i am now struggling to find a new step on the ladder.
Personally i'd be too ashamed to admit to paying for my TR!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bermudatriangle
SJM glad all worked out for you.....just bear in mind many of your fellow pilots ,who are already upto £70,000 out of pocket,might just not be able to afford the cost of a type rating.Nice if you can afford to keep shelling out,but is it really ethical for employers to expect pilots to fund all their flight training ?
I don't know how it is in the UK but in Sweden there is a government funded school for airline pilots where people can get their training for free. BUT only about 24 people every year get a chance to train there and the selection process is tough... this is also unfair, why should some get it for free and others don't.
But this is the world we live in, not everything is as it should...
But what can we pilots do to change the airlines minds about training...
Nothing...
The only thing that's going to make them start paying for training is a time when there aren't enough pilots compared to the no of flights needed to be done...
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How do you sleep at night.
Working for free with an airline is death to the industry. Our pay is already being erroded away year on year and your making it worse.
You may have a job now, but it will come around to bite you in the future.
I wouldn't want you on my jet.
How could I trust someone with no respect for themselves.
Working for free with an airline is death to the industry. Our pay is already being erroded away year on year and your making it worse.
You may have a job now, but it will come around to bite you in the future.
I wouldn't want you on my jet.
How could I trust someone with no respect for themselves.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sjm
I'm not ashamed!
There are plenty of TP operators out there willing to give a new guy a chance so its not as if we are depriving you of any job.
There are plenty of TP operators out there willing to give a new guy a chance so its not as if we are depriving you of any job.
And not to mention the affect its having on T&C's!!
We all want the good T&C's but wont get them whilst we bugger ourselves rigid!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Airprox
How do you sleep at night.
Working for free with an airline is death to the industry. Our pay is already being erroded away year on year and your making it worse.
You may have a job now, but it will come around to bite you in the future.
I wouldn't want you on my jet.
How could I trust someone with no respect for themselves.
Working for free with an airline is death to the industry. Our pay is already being erroded away year on year and your making it worse.
You may have a job now, but it will come around to bite you in the future.
I wouldn't want you on my jet.
How could I trust someone with no respect for themselves.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Founder & ACP,
So you guys pat yourselves on the back for finding yourselves in a A320 or B737 instead of learning how to fly properly doing instructing or general aviation work somwehere in the world.
I find your comments about those of who are flying GA jobs very condescending and rude. These guys and girls will be better pilots than you will ever be, will be able to look at themselves in a mirror with pride and don't deserve to be shafted by fools like you who are subsidising industry training costs and making the bean counters very happy.
Now you've landed this job and sitting fat dumb and happy. What's next on the 'pay for it yourself' agenda.. someone else comes along and works for free until command comes along and you get laid off to make way for this bean counters wet dream.
Get the picture?
Shags
So you guys pat yourselves on the back for finding yourselves in a A320 or B737 instead of learning how to fly properly doing instructing or general aviation work somwehere in the world.
I find your comments about those of who are flying GA jobs very condescending and rude. These guys and girls will be better pilots than you will ever be, will be able to look at themselves in a mirror with pride and don't deserve to be shafted by fools like you who are subsidising industry training costs and making the bean counters very happy.
Now you've landed this job and sitting fat dumb and happy. What's next on the 'pay for it yourself' agenda.. someone else comes along and works for free until command comes along and you get laid off to make way for this bean counters wet dream.
Get the picture?
Shags
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Shagtastic
Founder & ACP,
So you guys pat yourselves on the back for finding yourselves in a A320 or B737 instead of learning how to fly properly doing instructing or general aviation work somwehere in the world.
I find your comments about those of who are flying GA jobs very condescending and rude. These guys and girls will be better pilots than you will ever be, will be able to look at themselves in a mirror with pride and don't deserve to be shafted by fools like you who are subsidising industry training costs and making the bean counters very happy.
Now you've landed this job and sitting fat dumb and happy. What's next on the 'pay for it yourself' agenda.. someone else comes along and works for free until command comes along and you get laid off to make way for this bean counters wet dream.
Get the picture?
Shags
So you guys pat yourselves on the back for finding yourselves in a A320 or B737 instead of learning how to fly properly doing instructing or general aviation work somwehere in the world.
I find your comments about those of who are flying GA jobs very condescending and rude. These guys and girls will be better pilots than you will ever be, will be able to look at themselves in a mirror with pride and don't deserve to be shafted by fools like you who are subsidising industry training costs and making the bean counters very happy.
Now you've landed this job and sitting fat dumb and happy. What's next on the 'pay for it yourself' agenda.. someone else comes along and works for free until command comes along and you get laid off to make way for this bean counters wet dream.
Get the picture?
Shags
Set yourself in the position of having about 70'000 Euros in loans because of studies and then take a job which payes you about 1000 euro's per month... get real!!!
It's easy for someone to have an opinion like yours if you're already flying as a professional pilot making lots of money...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since there are so many here who complain about new pilots paying for a type-rating istead of "working their way up the ladder".
Perhaps all of you can tell us new guys how we're to be able to cope with the huge loans that we've got and at the same time work with SEP/MEP aircrafts not earning hardly any money at all...
And as well tell us where we might find a company who is flying SEP och MEP aircrafts today...(except flightschools)?
Make suggestions not accusations!
Perhaps all of you can tell us new guys how we're to be able to cope with the huge loans that we've got and at the same time work with SEP/MEP aircrafts not earning hardly any money at all...
And as well tell us where we might find a company who is flying SEP och MEP aircrafts today...(except flightschools)?
Make suggestions not accusations!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Founder,
A lot of people have had to do instructing on 1000 euros a month with debts to pay, living costs to meet etc etc. It was your decision to become a pilot and get 70,000 euros in debt which is regrettably the reality of getting a licence in the EU. That is your business and good luck to you and I honestly wish you do well.
But when you fall onto the hook and pay for your rating you start to affect others who are also in debt but are smart enough not to make it worse, and you help make T&C's worse for all.
Shags
A lot of people have had to do instructing on 1000 euros a month with debts to pay, living costs to meet etc etc. It was your decision to become a pilot and get 70,000 euros in debt which is regrettably the reality of getting a licence in the EU. That is your business and good luck to you and I honestly wish you do well.
But when you fall onto the hook and pay for your rating you start to affect others who are also in debt but are smart enough not to make it worse, and you help make T&C's worse for all.
Shags
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The big problem for me is that I can't afford not to get a job that pays more. I have to admit that the reality for new pilots is a big cloud of unanswered questions.
The schools are doing everything they can to get you to start training and paying without really telling the new pilots the reality that awaits them when they are finished.
And here we stand, with huge loans and no chance to get an honest job, what do we do? There are more pilots finishing than there is a need for instructors.
If I were to become an instructor I would still have to spend at least 9000 euros on the intstructor training. It would take me over a year of flying just to get that money back.
To me, it's not worth it. I would love to, if I could afford it but I can't... so I do what I must... even though it might feel wrong, I admit that, but that's how the market for pilots is right now.
Perhaps if the increased no of flights continue like it has the past year and the airlines keep makeing more and more money in maybe 2-5 years they will be forced to pay for ratings in order to get pilots at all... But we're not there yet, unfortunately...
The schools are doing everything they can to get you to start training and paying without really telling the new pilots the reality that awaits them when they are finished.
And here we stand, with huge loans and no chance to get an honest job, what do we do? There are more pilots finishing than there is a need for instructors.
If I were to become an instructor I would still have to spend at least 9000 euros on the intstructor training. It would take me over a year of flying just to get that money back.
To me, it's not worth it. I would love to, if I could afford it but I can't... so I do what I must... even though it might feel wrong, I admit that, but that's how the market for pilots is right now.
Perhaps if the increased no of flights continue like it has the past year and the airlines keep makeing more and more money in maybe 2-5 years they will be forced to pay for ratings in order to get pilots at all... But we're not there yet, unfortunately...
Last edited by Founder; 2nd Mar 2006 at 21:03.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Founder,
Now I agree with you!!
Reading between the lines it's not economical to become a pilot any more. High cost of entry, reducing pay and conditions, increasing workloads etc. I suppose that explains why our career no longer appeals to many young Europeans looking at law or medicine instead.
Beer is expensive in Sweden.. can only make it worse.
Shags
Now I agree with you!!
Reading between the lines it's not economical to become a pilot any more. High cost of entry, reducing pay and conditions, increasing workloads etc. I suppose that explains why our career no longer appeals to many young Europeans looking at law or medicine instead.
Beer is expensive in Sweden.. can only make it worse.
Shags
Thank god for cheap Danish beer!Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: North Pole
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We all have debts from our school training..........so I don't see your logic of making that debt bigger by paying for a type rating.
If you didn't pay, the companies would have to pay and then you would be able to pay off your debts quicker.
Please stop degrading the industry...................and no I don't have a jet job. Can't get one cus you are willing to pay for it. If you didn't pay, then maybe we both could get a jet type rating for free.
Stop being shortsighted
If you didn't pay, the companies would have to pay and then you would be able to pay off your debts quicker.
Please stop degrading the industry...................and no I don't have a jet job. Can't get one cus you are willing to pay for it. If you didn't pay, then maybe we both could get a jet type rating for free.
Stop being shortsighted
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
This subject has been done to death but........as an example, I got my first jet job 14 months ago after flying Corporate TProp's, having previously instructed, flown skydivers, towed gliders etc.......and no £70000 debt...as I worked whilst I trained, all because I wasnt desperate to finish training and step straight into a jet.
You guys with massive debt..take a look in the mirror...its your own fault, how about some personal responsibility for a change?
You guys with massive debt..take a look in the mirror...its your own fault, how about some personal responsibility for a change?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
£70,000 is a figure that seems to be the norm these days, I payed apx £48,000 type include.
Lost two jobs offers when sept 11 happened worked my arse of to get 1000hrs and watched 250hrs guys get jobs offers straight out of a flight school.
Amased 2500hrs total time only to be told by one TP company "not really interested , as you will leave as soon as you get 500 multi-crew"
They like young fresh pilots that cant move on for a few years, as someone stated earlier this topic has been done to death, its not simply about who has the most money, its about who has the strongest will to succeed.
£70000 for a licence vs £48000+type, well if you will believe the nice shinny adds by the big schools more fool you.
I dont believe it costs that much unless you go to the large schools. And before someone pipes up with crap like "they are the best schools" , well "
" not true and those who choose a school and pay top money for training in the hope oxford or cabair on the CV will give them the edge are just as guilty as those who they accuse.
So a case of pot calling kettle black me thinks, incidentally many of my friends are capts in major airines and many of them are of the belief terms and conditions were way on there way down before this self-type approach started.
I wish everyone luck in thier job hunting and sincerely hope you all gain employment, just remember "life isnt fair"
Lost two jobs offers when sept 11 happened worked my arse of to get 1000hrs and watched 250hrs guys get jobs offers straight out of a flight school.
Amased 2500hrs total time only to be told by one TP company "not really interested , as you will leave as soon as you get 500 multi-crew"
They like young fresh pilots that cant move on for a few years, as someone stated earlier this topic has been done to death, its not simply about who has the most money, its about who has the strongest will to succeed.
£70000 for a licence vs £48000+type, well if you will believe the nice shinny adds by the big schools more fool you.
I dont believe it costs that much unless you go to the large schools. And before someone pipes up with crap like "they are the best schools" , well "
" not true and those who choose a school and pay top money for training in the hope oxford or cabair on the CV will give them the edge are just as guilty as those who they accuse.So a case of pot calling kettle black me thinks, incidentally many of my friends are capts in major airines and many of them are of the belief terms and conditions were way on there way down before this self-type approach started.
I wish everyone luck in thier job hunting and sincerely hope you all gain employment, just remember "life isnt fair"
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I quite agree with the statement not to pay for type ratings the airlines should pay. however as a currently unemployed pilot, I have been offered a full time (full pay) job on A320, but i have to pay the type rating myself - line training etc paid for by airline so just basic ground school and sim to pay for upto final sim check. So do i tell them to stick there offer and carry on looking ? after 2 1/2 yrs with NO job despite CV's phone calls making nuisance of ones self ? I know what i want to do but be interesting to know what you all think when your in my position and get first offer .....
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Up the front
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speedtapeking
That's exactly the point. No pilot in the world agrees with paying for a type rating ... it's absurd! I'd go on hunger strike, march to 10 Downing St etc etc to protest with all of you but I too was offered the same as you have been and I was on a ticking time bomb with the bank and IR renewal looming etc. For the record I was in the holding pool for another 737 operator (but with no firm date of employment and others ahead of me in the queue) and had replies to my letters from every TP operator in the UK saying they had no vacancies. Small matter too is that I also have a house/mortgage. There I am, in room being offered a jet job. As for being a "rich kid" the bank was willing to loan me the extra to secure the job on the basis of further risking my house as security. Without doubt there is someone next in line wishing that I say no. For me I had no choice.
I don't like it, I don't agree with it but under the circumstances I also don't regret it. Instead of individuals making protests and suffering for it I believe it's high time the unions like BALPA get involved.
That's exactly the point. No pilot in the world agrees with paying for a type rating ... it's absurd! I'd go on hunger strike, march to 10 Downing St etc etc to protest with all of you but I too was offered the same as you have been and I was on a ticking time bomb with the bank and IR renewal looming etc. For the record I was in the holding pool for another 737 operator (but with no firm date of employment and others ahead of me in the queue) and had replies to my letters from every TP operator in the UK saying they had no vacancies. Small matter too is that I also have a house/mortgage. There I am, in room being offered a jet job. As for being a "rich kid" the bank was willing to loan me the extra to secure the job on the basis of further risking my house as security. Without doubt there is someone next in line wishing that I say no. For me I had no choice.
I don't like it, I don't agree with it but under the circumstances I also don't regret it. Instead of individuals making protests and suffering for it I believe it's high time the unions like BALPA get involved.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Since there's so much consencus on the subject I expect any moment the call from IFALPA for a general strike, initiated by the most senior/management pilots of most airlines in the world.
This jut to avoid the erosion of the industry, being polluted by these suckers bending over to get their rating!
Solidarity is the new fashion word!
Honestly I think this will not happen, so just observe this spiralling out of control.
I also would have preferred NOT to pay, but, you know, it was this or being (aviation) jobless for years.
This jut to avoid the erosion of the industry, being polluted by these suckers bending over to get their rating!
Solidarity is the new fashion word!
Honestly I think this will not happen, so just observe this spiralling out of control.
I also would have preferred NOT to pay, but, you know, it was this or being (aviation) jobless for years.