TIME TO STOP PAYING
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This is an interesting debate, and it is probably one that will go on forever.
And before I start: I used Pprune through flight school and up until getting a job. This is just a way for me to give something back. Please don’t start flaming me with “you destroy T and C’s” – posts.
I would just like to share some of my thoughts on the economical aspect of the problem, as I have just been through it. I went through what has been described as “the hard way”. I instructed and flew skydivers in TP’s in the US on very low pay after flight school. After coming back to the EU and completing my JAA fATPL I had the following job-offers after about 3 months of job-hunting:
- Caravan FO, did not have to pay for training, salary about 2000 E/month (before taxes)
- J31 FO, Pay for training (approx 12.500 E), salary about 3000 E/month (before taxes)
- A300-600/A310 FO, Pay for training (approx 32.000 E), salary about 5100 E/month (tax free) and free housing.
As I had gone through my training “the hard way” and paid for my hours with hard work and not with money, I was very tempted to go for the Caravan job. But then I started to look at the money involved. With the Caravan job I would struggle to just live a decent life, but with the A300-job I could live a good life AND pay down the TR-loan at the same time.
In the end I chose the jet-job (this is 8 months ago) and 2 months from now I can cash out the entire loan on the TR if I want to. You also have to look at the amount of years (of your life) you spend in a high-paying job. When I took this offer, I fast-tracked myself into a higher-paying job. If I would have stuck with the Caravan, I would still be making just enough to survive AND at the same time not much closer to a high-paying job.
I have no doubts that I chose the right offer, and I have not regretted it once. I agree with you guys that are claiming that it is a company responsibility to type-rate their pilots. But in the free-market world we live in self-sponsoring will never go away until either; a) There is a serious pilot-shortage, or b) It is made illegal.
I do not see either of these things happening in the near future. In the mean time, the best way to get what and where you want is to play the game. Don’t jump on offers that are economically unviable, but if you get an opportunity that can be defended economically – go for it.
By the time it took for me to write this, I see that there are several new posts describing the same subject. I still post this as it is a real-life story supporting some of these posts.
Good luck to you all!
And before I start: I used Pprune through flight school and up until getting a job. This is just a way for me to give something back. Please don’t start flaming me with “you destroy T and C’s” – posts.
I would just like to share some of my thoughts on the economical aspect of the problem, as I have just been through it. I went through what has been described as “the hard way”. I instructed and flew skydivers in TP’s in the US on very low pay after flight school. After coming back to the EU and completing my JAA fATPL I had the following job-offers after about 3 months of job-hunting:
- Caravan FO, did not have to pay for training, salary about 2000 E/month (before taxes)
- J31 FO, Pay for training (approx 12.500 E), salary about 3000 E/month (before taxes)
- A300-600/A310 FO, Pay for training (approx 32.000 E), salary about 5100 E/month (tax free) and free housing.
As I had gone through my training “the hard way” and paid for my hours with hard work and not with money, I was very tempted to go for the Caravan job. But then I started to look at the money involved. With the Caravan job I would struggle to just live a decent life, but with the A300-job I could live a good life AND pay down the TR-loan at the same time.
In the end I chose the jet-job (this is 8 months ago) and 2 months from now I can cash out the entire loan on the TR if I want to. You also have to look at the amount of years (of your life) you spend in a high-paying job. When I took this offer, I fast-tracked myself into a higher-paying job. If I would have stuck with the Caravan, I would still be making just enough to survive AND at the same time not much closer to a high-paying job.
I have no doubts that I chose the right offer, and I have not regretted it once. I agree with you guys that are claiming that it is a company responsibility to type-rate their pilots. But in the free-market world we live in self-sponsoring will never go away until either; a) There is a serious pilot-shortage, or b) It is made illegal.
I do not see either of these things happening in the near future. In the mean time, the best way to get what and where you want is to play the game. Don’t jump on offers that are economically unviable, but if you get an opportunity that can be defended economically – go for it.
By the time it took for me to write this, I see that there are several new posts describing the same subject. I still post this as it is a real-life story supporting some of these posts.
Good luck to you all!
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Time to stop paying - absolutely. In fact along this line of thought, what if every single pilot in the world joined forces and said in one strong voice "No more flying unless we all get 100,000£ a year and a porsche" I think we'd get it too! Or what if we all said "No more paying for ANYTHING ourselves, not the ATPL or CPL/IR or MCC or anything." Imagine if every single person who ever considered flying sat on his butt and said that. Nope... not until companies pay for everything. Finally companies would have 0 applicants and they'd be forced to comply. Right? Imagine them T&C's right, my god...
But you know what, it ain't happening sunshine... not in a million years. Self-funding is here and it's staying. It's most certainly going to get worse before it gets better again, some interesting times ahead I should think.
But you know what, it ain't happening sunshine... not in a million years. Self-funding is here and it's staying. It's most certainly going to get worse before it gets better again, some interesting times ahead I should think.
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no TR, no FLYING!
As long as there is no solidarity between the vast majority of pilots for better T&C's, and paid training, its a long road to Berlin.
As individuals we are helpless, and insignificant. But as a group...
They would have no choice if everyone refused to pay for their own TRs. With the "It'll never work" mentality, it will never work.
It would be tough in the beginning, but we would be there to reap the rewards of better T&Cs in the future for ourselves, and future pilots.
If only it was possible to set a date, and get so organised where all pilots world wide say "no TR, no FLYING!". I wonder how long it would take before we would start getting paid for training.
Regards
As individuals we are helpless, and insignificant. But as a group...
They would have no choice if everyone refused to pay for their own TRs. With the "It'll never work" mentality, it will never work.
It would be tough in the beginning, but we would be there to reap the rewards of better T&Cs in the future for ourselves, and future pilots.
If only it was possible to set a date, and get so organised where all pilots world wide say "no TR, no FLYING!". I wonder how long it would take before we would start getting paid for training.
Regards
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B767PL,
Sadly,with people like ACP willing to buy at any cost to get into the RHS, their will never be a concensus. There needs to be a way of making sure they realise what they are doing has a detrimental effect on everyone else. But that is a tough thing to do when people like that are so blind to the reality.
The only winners here are the FTO's and TR providers who are taking all of these suckers money. The losers are everyone as the companies see the greediness or willingness (call it what you will) to do what they tell you!
ACP thinks he is very smart to have bought himself a turn in the RHS. He maybe thinking that now but I would like to know his attitude to this in 20 years. What he doesnt realise is that he has sold us out and in 5 years time, someone will sell him out for more money and lower T's and C's and 5 years after that, someone will sell that person and ACP and me and my colleagues out................. They will have racked up an even bigger debt so will be willing to accept an even bigger 'shafting' by the airlines.
It will not stop with people like ACP. Why dont these people realise that, it will go exponential, there is no other way if it isnt stopped!
ACP, stop being so defensive and start being a bit more proactive. You are in the RHS now. Fine. Well done. I may not like the way you got there but its too late for that now!
The thing is if you advocate what you have done to every other wannabee jet pilot out there, you and your colleagues will regret it in future years to come! Surely you can see this. Open your eyes to it please!
Sadly,with people like ACP willing to buy at any cost to get into the RHS, their will never be a concensus. There needs to be a way of making sure they realise what they are doing has a detrimental effect on everyone else. But that is a tough thing to do when people like that are so blind to the reality.
The only winners here are the FTO's and TR providers who are taking all of these suckers money. The losers are everyone as the companies see the greediness or willingness (call it what you will) to do what they tell you!
ACP thinks he is very smart to have bought himself a turn in the RHS. He maybe thinking that now but I would like to know his attitude to this in 20 years. What he doesnt realise is that he has sold us out and in 5 years time, someone will sell him out for more money and lower T's and C's and 5 years after that, someone will sell that person and ACP and me and my colleagues out................. They will have racked up an even bigger debt so will be willing to accept an even bigger 'shafting' by the airlines.
It will not stop with people like ACP. Why dont these people realise that, it will go exponential, there is no other way if it isnt stopped!
ACP, stop being so defensive and start being a bit more proactive. You are in the RHS now. Fine. Well done. I may not like the way you got there but its too late for that now!
The thing is if you advocate what you have done to every other wannabee jet pilot out there, you and your colleagues will regret it in future years to come! Surely you can see this. Open your eyes to it please!
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Yup, it'll get so bad that candidates worth having wont even start to train - just like the asia pacific region. No fools them - who wants to be a pilot being lectured by the likes of you Gnirren or whatever your handle is - when you can get a career in engineering, accountancy, medicine, PR, property, etc etc in a booming economy of the future.
I respect ANYONE who has the persistence, determination and moral self honesty to train for and become a professional career in aviation, and I dont believe that the job has become "easier" one bit. Workload has become higher and yet more subtle with the automatics we now use having dangerous and subtle traps of their own, reduced seperation, increased traffic, minimum rest, relentless workloads, and minimal training from companies clinging to a shred of fiscal viability. And on and on.
That said, I think anyone entering the profession now is making a big mistake. Every one of my professional contempories in other fields has made a very substantial amount more cold hard cash than I do or will and achieved a position of respect in their careers.
In my international airline we have a message on the board in the trainers' room of the sim saying "please re-use envelopes to save costs".............and its downhill from there everywhere you look. If you value YOURSELF think very hard before joining the zoo that is modern "professional" flying, where you can be taunted by the likes of Gnirren etc, or managed by such luminaries as Leo the Hairy Camel (what IS that all about?).
I have had some interesting times, but now I fear the future every day. Is that what you want for your future (and massive debt at the start of your working life)?
I respect ANYONE who has the persistence, determination and moral self honesty to train for and become a professional career in aviation, and I dont believe that the job has become "easier" one bit. Workload has become higher and yet more subtle with the automatics we now use having dangerous and subtle traps of their own, reduced seperation, increased traffic, minimum rest, relentless workloads, and minimal training from companies clinging to a shred of fiscal viability. And on and on.
That said, I think anyone entering the profession now is making a big mistake. Every one of my professional contempories in other fields has made a very substantial amount more cold hard cash than I do or will and achieved a position of respect in their careers.
In my international airline we have a message on the board in the trainers' room of the sim saying "please re-use envelopes to save costs".............and its downhill from there everywhere you look. If you value YOURSELF think very hard before joining the zoo that is modern "professional" flying, where you can be taunted by the likes of Gnirren etc, or managed by such luminaries as Leo the Hairy Camel (what IS that all about?).
I have had some interesting times, but now I fear the future every day. Is that what you want for your future (and massive debt at the start of your working life)?
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Shockstall,
Now you've set a precendent for yourself I wonder what you'll do when the A300/310 you fly is phased out and you're asked to pay the rating on the replacement type? or you leave and go to some crapy outfit like easyjet (everyone makes a difference!) and sign up to their TRSS scheme?
Yoda say 'A rating forever pay will you!'
And the accountants will be booking their 1st class trip abroad with their bonus.. at your expense yet again.
You probably won't have much choice; BALPA represents predominantly BA who don't make you pay for the rating, so it's of no interest to them and they aren't going to help you out, there will be a line up of young faces massively in debt desperate to find an economicaly sustainable job as you pointed out or rich kids thinking of ways to spend the endless supply of Mum & Dads cash.
It all happens because the companies abuse the situation and you and others give in.
Shags
Now you've set a precendent for yourself I wonder what you'll do when the A300/310 you fly is phased out and you're asked to pay the rating on the replacement type? or you leave and go to some crapy outfit like easyjet (everyone makes a difference!) and sign up to their TRSS scheme?
Yoda say 'A rating forever pay will you!'
And the accountants will be booking their 1st class trip abroad with their bonus.. at your expense yet again.
You probably won't have much choice; BALPA represents predominantly BA who don't make you pay for the rating, so it's of no interest to them and they aren't going to help you out, there will be a line up of young faces massively in debt desperate to find an economicaly sustainable job as you pointed out or rich kids thinking of ways to spend the endless supply of Mum & Dads cash.
It all happens because the companies abuse the situation and you and others give in.
Shags
Last edited by Shagtastic; 8th Mar 2006 at 13:38.
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ShortfinalFred,
I'm taunting nobody. I am however pointing out the fact that the aviation industryhas changed, is changing and the solution "why don't everyone just stop paying for ratings" isn't going to work simply because it's not going to happen. Do you think it's will? How many pizzed off posts on pprune will it take until self-sponsorships vanish?
My argument was that if we COULD make pilots agree on something on such a large scale, why stop at SSTR's? It's a moot point, it's like saying "well if everyone would just agree to stop paying taxes the gov would be forced to lower them" You can put 100 people in a room and it would take them a week to decide on the color of the wallpaper around them. Uniting thousands of pilots isn't exactly easy and when you factor in the possibility of losing your job, well suffice to say... good luck to you. If this is going to go away it will either take legislation or such an amazing downturn in T&C's that people considering a career in aviation will elect not to go there. Of course by then the damage is already done.
The don't pay moaning won't cut it, so other means will have to be figured out. Now I'm not a proponent of people buying their ratings, which you obviously assumed. When I see people on here crying "don't pay!" it angers me simply because the milk is spilled and you're crying over it. It's not going to happen so focus your energy on alternative solutions, like legislation. Point taken?
Yes my nick is Gnirren actually, it sais so right there
I'm taunting nobody. I am however pointing out the fact that the aviation industryhas changed, is changing and the solution "why don't everyone just stop paying for ratings" isn't going to work simply because it's not going to happen. Do you think it's will? How many pizzed off posts on pprune will it take until self-sponsorships vanish?
My argument was that if we COULD make pilots agree on something on such a large scale, why stop at SSTR's? It's a moot point, it's like saying "well if everyone would just agree to stop paying taxes the gov would be forced to lower them" You can put 100 people in a room and it would take them a week to decide on the color of the wallpaper around them. Uniting thousands of pilots isn't exactly easy and when you factor in the possibility of losing your job, well suffice to say... good luck to you. If this is going to go away it will either take legislation or such an amazing downturn in T&C's that people considering a career in aviation will elect not to go there. Of course by then the damage is already done.
The don't pay moaning won't cut it, so other means will have to be figured out. Now I'm not a proponent of people buying their ratings, which you obviously assumed. When I see people on here crying "don't pay!" it angers me simply because the milk is spilled and you're crying over it. It's not going to happen so focus your energy on alternative solutions, like legislation. Point taken?
Yes my nick is Gnirren actually, it sais so right there
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Glad this topic has proved of so much interest.Strong views either way,but I still believe it is time to stop paying.As regards Balpa,I feel they only get involved with the major players and leave the dubious operators to establish their own perameters.But that's another topic all together !
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How ironic:
this is the ad above this thread now:
MCC Course available on B737 full motion simulator
Highly qualified Airline Instructors - Competitive Price - No VAT
contact Linda Logan tel: (00) 353-1-8161753 or email
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this is the ad above this thread now:
MCC Course available on B737 full motion simulator
Highly qualified Airline Instructors - Competitive Price - No VAT
contact Linda Logan tel: (00) 353-1-8161753 or email
[email protected] - Click HERE for further details.
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I dont know about other countries but in Sweden if you do training or attend education in order to get a job or keep a job you can specify the sum of costs on your tax bill and a big percentage of that sum will be withdrawn from your tax the following year. You can also devide that sum during several years to get a lower tax.
By buying a type-rating you'll actullay get a lower tax than you would otherwise...
By buying a type-rating you'll actullay get a lower tax than you would otherwise...
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Come on Troops
Guys and Gals,
It seems there are still a few noble people out there willing to stand up and be counted.
Its time to make a stand people and put our money (or at least a little bit of time) where our mouths are!
OSOP
P.S. Have the "pay for your TR camp" run out of arguments? They seem to be very quiet!
It seems there are still a few noble people out there willing to stand up and be counted.
Its time to make a stand people and put our money (or at least a little bit of time) where our mouths are!
OSOP
P.S. Have the "pay for your TR camp" run out of arguments? They seem to be very quiet!
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I think the only good suggestion that has come up at this thread is the on which states that it should be illigal to charge students for type-ratings.
The best thing every pilot organisation could do is to push the EU and JAA and FAA as well to create a law which makes them illigal...
The best thing every pilot organisation could do is to push the EU and JAA and FAA as well to create a law which makes them illigal...
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Founder, While I think making SSTR schemes illeagle is an option, I dont think it is very feasible. Penalising those that choose to take them is a better option.
There are not really any other penalising options other than taking away the pilots right to support when it comes to employment related matters!
Its the pilots not the companies that need to be taught the lesson, not the companies. All the copmanies are doing is bending the law and providing a service that is in demand!
We have to stop the demand!!
There are not really any other penalising options other than taking away the pilots right to support when it comes to employment related matters!
Its the pilots not the companies that need to be taught the lesson, not the companies. All the copmanies are doing is bending the law and providing a service that is in demand!
We have to stop the demand!!
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If a union that protests to protect the interests of the UK pilot work force doesnt bother to take up your cause, that must say something.
Personally I wouldnt pay a penny of my wages to BALPA they look after who they want when they want. BA mainly.
While your all bitching to balpa about type ratings maybe you should also complain about foriegn pilots, those over 50?, left handed pilots?, those with more than 2.4 children? and anyone else who doesnt fit "whingy hard done by pilot" bracket. By the way this is a crowd who also charge £50 to sit and listen to airlines once a year, thats a large profit margin.
A recent BALPA letter around my company stated that all members should carry an application form so that those not members could be pressured into joining claiming that they were riding on the back of others. BALPA doesnt give a monkeys either about Wannabes, there jobsite is a joke!
Do you honestly think anybody on this topic that has a job and is fighting for his pension gives a monkeys about those trying to get there first job or second for that matter. They would shaft you in a instant if thier company said "we will lay off 20 new bonded(none of whom paid for a type rating) Fos so you can keep your pension" Where would the loyalty be then. Where were these pilots when B scales were introduced to new pilots in some major compnaies?, not supporting thier co workers thats for sure and now they have run out of excuses as to why T and Cs are slipping further, they look for a new scape goat.
Well wake up you fools nobody goes to work to earn a living for the greater cause, they go to provide for families and lifestyle, the argument is evident from the fact that these TP jocks are complaining about me earning 40K+ a year instead of them.
Christ you all need to grow up a bit, get on with finding/moving jobs and stop blaming evryone else for your failings and lack of opportunity.
And by the way I did more than my fair share of flying in crap a/c, six months without a day off, waiting to fly in rundown airfields, I have 2000+ TT and all things going to plan and suitablity be looking at a command in two years time! £80k+ them aint bad T's and C's if you ask me.
Maybe you will blame the lowcost sector for it next, after all they only provided a vast amount of new opportunities for the industry that wernt there before.
Regards
Personally I wouldnt pay a penny of my wages to BALPA they look after who they want when they want. BA mainly.
While your all bitching to balpa about type ratings maybe you should also complain about foriegn pilots, those over 50?, left handed pilots?, those with more than 2.4 children? and anyone else who doesnt fit "whingy hard done by pilot" bracket. By the way this is a crowd who also charge £50 to sit and listen to airlines once a year, thats a large profit margin.
A recent BALPA letter around my company stated that all members should carry an application form so that those not members could be pressured into joining claiming that they were riding on the back of others. BALPA doesnt give a monkeys either about Wannabes, there jobsite is a joke!
Do you honestly think anybody on this topic that has a job and is fighting for his pension gives a monkeys about those trying to get there first job or second for that matter. They would shaft you in a instant if thier company said "we will lay off 20 new bonded(none of whom paid for a type rating) Fos so you can keep your pension" Where would the loyalty be then. Where were these pilots when B scales were introduced to new pilots in some major compnaies?, not supporting thier co workers thats for sure and now they have run out of excuses as to why T and Cs are slipping further, they look for a new scape goat.
Well wake up you fools nobody goes to work to earn a living for the greater cause, they go to provide for families and lifestyle, the argument is evident from the fact that these TP jocks are complaining about me earning 40K+ a year instead of them.
Christ you all need to grow up a bit, get on with finding/moving jobs and stop blaming evryone else for your failings and lack of opportunity.
And by the way I did more than my fair share of flying in crap a/c, six months without a day off, waiting to fly in rundown airfields, I have 2000+ TT and all things going to plan and suitablity be looking at a command in two years time! £80k+ them aint bad T's and C's if you ask me.
Maybe you will blame the lowcost sector for it next, after all they only provided a vast amount of new opportunities for the industry that wernt there before.
Regards
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pilots ... that need to be taught the lesson
Oh dear, lost the will to participate in reasoned debate so soon? Or just on a wind-up...
The shouted thread title says it all, comrade
. What else would you make ilegall?
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theWings,
I will assume you are quoting me in your post.
Maybe "teaching pilots a lesson" is too harsh for you to handle.
How about...... convince the SSTR pilots that what they are doing is incorrect by removing the possibility of union support and the benefits that it brings.
My point is this, why should my membership fees suplement any support for a fellow colleague whos actions have led to a lowering of the Ts and Cs that I now recieve?
Thats like giving money to the guy whos going to drop the axe, just to ensure a quick and less painful death.
I will assume you are quoting me in your post.
Maybe "teaching pilots a lesson" is too harsh for you to handle.
How about...... convince the SSTR pilots that what they are doing is incorrect by removing the possibility of union support and the benefits that it brings.
My point is this, why should my membership fees suplement any support for a fellow colleague whos actions have led to a lowering of the Ts and Cs that I now recieve?
Thats like giving money to the guy whos going to drop the axe, just to ensure a quick and less painful death.