Approach Briefing
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411A:
Odd that you should mention Cali. That accident would seem to be the poster child for not "tossing it down on the center console, and saying...any questions?"
IF the respective pilots had continued with the original plan (instead of accepting an ill-advised last minute change, with concurrant FMS duff gen)...we wouldn't be reading about them...now.
Last edited by MU3001A; 29th Aug 2009 at 02:10.
I wonder how many of the incidents discussed here reviewed the chart with sufficient detail during the approach briefing.
Incident 1 - incorrect descent point.
Incident 2 - incorrect descent point, no check altitudes.
Incident 3 - incorrect descent point, no check altitudes, poor use of FMS.
Incident 4 - check distances, even when visual.
Incident 5 - incorrect descent point.
Incident 6 - incorrect descent point, wrong DME.
Incident 7 - failed to follow / check procedure.
Incident 8 - failed to follow / check procedure.
Incident 1 - incorrect descent point.
Incident 2 - incorrect descent point, no check altitudes.
Incident 3 - incorrect descent point, no check altitudes, poor use of FMS.
Incident 4 - check distances, even when visual.
Incident 5 - incorrect descent point.
Incident 6 - incorrect descent point, wrong DME.
Incident 7 - failed to follow / check procedure.
Incident 8 - failed to follow / check procedure.
PEI_3721, an interesting link, thank you.
Having read through all these incidents, it did seem to me that in most of the cases there were major flaws in the execution of the various procedures... Even if there had been mega-briefs, it'd have all gone to worms anyway. In fact, the authors of the paper thought the same:
The approaches were all NP, sometimes a late change from an ILS. If you're going to agree on just one thing, I'd have thought the descent point would have been it...? Several of the approaches went below MDA without an adequate visual reference or any sort of altitude/distance checks - seems SOPs went out of the window.
Having read through all these incidents, it did seem to me that in most of the cases there were major flaws in the execution of the various procedures... Even if there had been mega-briefs, it'd have all gone to worms anyway. In fact, the authors of the paper thought the same:
All of the errors should have been detected with self or cross-crew monitoring. These require application of CRM skills involving communication for sharing mental models, crosschecking facts and understandings, and monitoring the situation that must include both the flight path and personal and crew understandings.
DOVE
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Phantom Driver
Quote:
Saudia (as an example) used to brief -"Chart 11-1-dated xxx-any comments?". As supposed professionals, that really should be enough, i.e we're all looking at the correct chart.
Yoy make a serious disservice to the professionalism, discipline and competence of the Saudia pilots (albeit they were coming from, in my time, some 56 different nations). From a review of my notes I find on thier SOP:
LANDING BRIEFING
Where possible, prior to commencing descent, and once the type of approach has been decided upon, all crewmembers shall review the information on the relevant Jeppesen Terminal Chart. The PNF will call out for the other crewmembers at least the following information:
The approach chart date, number, airport and type of approach.
The MEA and MSA.
The field elevation and touchdown zone elevation.
A point, selected by the PF for an "Altitude Check" for which a glideslope crossing height is published, in order to ensure when passing that point the proper functioning of ground and airborne approach aid components, altimeters and other flight instruments. This point should be higher than 1000 ft AGL. For a non-precision approach, the point selected should normally be the FAF.
For a CAT I approach:
the DA/DH and visibility requirement.
For a CAT II approach:
the Radio Altimeter (RA) and RVR requirement. Also for a CAT II approach, the CAT I DA/DH and associated visibility requirement given on the CAT I approach chart.
For a non-precision Approach:
The MDA, missed approach point and associated visibility requirement
The missed approach procedure.
Verification of barometric and radio altimeter bug settings.
The PF shall discuss any other significant aspects of the approach and landing that he considers necessary, e.g. terrain, weather, runway conditions, MEL/CDL, and in case of holding expected: MDF, fuel available; and radio set-up, etc. The expected taxiway route to the parking position will also be discussed.
And I do not think it's changed much in recent years.
Regards
DOVES
Quote:
Saudia (as an example) used to brief -"Chart 11-1-dated xxx-any comments?". As supposed professionals, that really should be enough, i.e we're all looking at the correct chart.
Yoy make a serious disservice to the professionalism, discipline and competence of the Saudia pilots (albeit they were coming from, in my time, some 56 different nations). From a review of my notes I find on thier SOP:
LANDING BRIEFING
Where possible, prior to commencing descent, and once the type of approach has been decided upon, all crewmembers shall review the information on the relevant Jeppesen Terminal Chart. The PNF will call out for the other crewmembers at least the following information:
The approach chart date, number, airport and type of approach.
The MEA and MSA.
The field elevation and touchdown zone elevation.
A point, selected by the PF for an "Altitude Check" for which a glideslope crossing height is published, in order to ensure when passing that point the proper functioning of ground and airborne approach aid components, altimeters and other flight instruments. This point should be higher than 1000 ft AGL. For a non-precision approach, the point selected should normally be the FAF.
For a CAT I approach:
the DA/DH and visibility requirement.
For a CAT II approach:
the Radio Altimeter (RA) and RVR requirement. Also for a CAT II approach, the CAT I DA/DH and associated visibility requirement given on the CAT I approach chart.
For a non-precision Approach:
The MDA, missed approach point and associated visibility requirement
The missed approach procedure.
Verification of barometric and radio altimeter bug settings.
The PF shall discuss any other significant aspects of the approach and landing that he considers necessary, e.g. terrain, weather, runway conditions, MEL/CDL, and in case of holding expected: MDF, fuel available; and radio set-up, etc. The expected taxiway route to the parking position will also be discussed.
And I do not think it's changed much in recent years.
Regards
DOVES
If briefing time exceeds 1 minute, most of us have gone beyond the average person's attention span. Try this. Once the ATIS and STAR have been received, each pilot takes time out for self briefing from the charts, having first agreed on the chart numbers. We already know what country and state we are in and usually have a fair idea of which airport we are at; though sometimes this does need to be confirmed if there are two airports in the area sharing the same location name. So normally, we can spare the full title. Ditto standard stuff like 250 knots below 10,000 feet or loss of comms procedures. Anything 'standard' should not be read - it should already be known. Saves at least a minute of talk-fest.
After studying the charts, PM quizzes PF on essential stuff, such as inbound course, most limiting descent step, missed approach point and missed approach procedure. Where is the high terrain? Divert fuel?
Briefing done in 1 minute. Locked in to memory for 30 minutes. PM knows PF knows what to do. PF knows PM will be on his case.
After studying the charts, PM quizzes PF on essential stuff, such as inbound course, most limiting descent step, missed approach point and missed approach procedure. Where is the high terrain? Divert fuel?
Briefing done in 1 minute. Locked in to memory for 30 minutes. PM knows PF knows what to do. PF knows PM will be on his case.
DOVE
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fireflybob:
Presto said
The purpose of a briefing for the approach is to ascertain, well ahead of time that the whole crew will understand how you will conduct the approach and landing/go-around that day, for that airport's runway, with that operational conditions, with those weather, and the traffic expected.
The goal is simple: to correct or be corrected if necessary.
That's my two cents.
Regards
DOVES
Presto said
The purpose of a briefing for the approach is to ascertain, well ahead of time that the whole crew will understand how you will conduct the approach and landing/go-around that day, for that airport's runway, with that operational conditions, with those weather, and the traffic expected.
The goal is simple: to correct or be corrected if necessary.
That's my two cents.
Regards
DOVES
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..and always keep in mind: its called BRIEFing. the shorter the better. otherwise it would have been called "Approach LONGing".
even if you fly to a new airport we should have already done an airport familiarisation by ourselves at home, shouldn't we ?
So then just make a brief brief of the "highlights" and any changes you want to do on the expected approach, e.g like additional constraints etc.
"Standard Approach, as published! No changes! Any additional Questions?"
even if you fly to a new airport we should have already done an airport familiarisation by ourselves at home, shouldn't we ?
So then just make a brief brief of the "highlights" and any changes you want to do on the expected approach, e.g like additional constraints etc.
"Standard Approach, as published! No changes! Any additional Questions?"
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: When you deal with professionals, the wheel need not be reinvented on a daily basis.
Unfortunately we live in a litigious society. Failure to mention any perceived pertinent factor will inevitably be the opening lawyers and the company are after. The CVR can save you or hang you.
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PM quizzes PF on essential stuff, such as inbound course, most limiting descent step, missed approach point and missed approach procedure. Where is the high terrain? Divert fuel?
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This thread is hilarious. There have been 71 posts. Yet no-one has just done a simple "say this" approach briefing for the plate in question!!!!
I feel really sorry for airyana if he is a new FO who is just asking how the airlines brief normally for the approach......
But I think airyana has given up as no-one has yet answered his question in a simple straightforward way!!! We all know that we would amend things depending on who we are flying with and whether we've just done the last 24 sectors with them into the same field etc.etc. but lets assume not. I don't know IBZ, having only been there a couple of times a long time ago but on first glance....
"I am looking at plate 11-1, 28 Sep 01 the Lctr ILS for runway 24. MSA is 2800ft based on the IBZ NDB. The approach is based on the IBZ 109.5 with a final course of 243 (and check both set up). Airport elevation is 23' with the threshold at 18' (good time to check the Airbus landing elevation figure). Transition alt is 6000'. Weather is XXX and tech status is XXX. The initial approach fix is based on the IBA at 20 miles and we need to be at or above 4000'. We will be expecting radar vectors....or.... course of 233 to 16dme, min 2200', then left turn onto track 196 to pick up the inbound course of 243. We expect to pick this up at 13.6d from the IBA. I will fly the approach with the automatics in initially. We should pick up the glide from 1500 ft at around 5.5d IBA (or more likely work back depending on what they normally clear you to start the approach from at Ibiza, at 1900' at 6.7d perhaps, or say 2200 ft at around 8d or whatever). The check altitudes are based on the IBA VOR. Its a standard 3 degree glide, with a minima of 218 ft, 550m (check its set up), with a go-around gradient of 3% which we can make on one engine. The gradient is due to a couple of obstructions either side of track so will make sure we stay on course. If we do go missed, I will apply TOGA power, call go-around flap, positive climb, gear up, then climb to 2000' on the heading - 243 - then a left turn back to IBZ NDB climbing to 3000 ft to hold. This is all in the box and so will be flown using managed nav. If we continue to landing I will use medium autobrake and idle reverse. I will be aiming to exit at (exit point). The runway length and slope is XXX. Fuel reserves - 1st alternate - weather and initial track. Any questions, anything to add, anything I've missed....."
I feel really sorry for airyana if he is a new FO who is just asking how the airlines brief normally for the approach......
But I think airyana has given up as no-one has yet answered his question in a simple straightforward way!!! We all know that we would amend things depending on who we are flying with and whether we've just done the last 24 sectors with them into the same field etc.etc. but lets assume not. I don't know IBZ, having only been there a couple of times a long time ago but on first glance....
"I am looking at plate 11-1, 28 Sep 01 the Lctr ILS for runway 24. MSA is 2800ft based on the IBZ NDB. The approach is based on the IBZ 109.5 with a final course of 243 (and check both set up). Airport elevation is 23' with the threshold at 18' (good time to check the Airbus landing elevation figure). Transition alt is 6000'. Weather is XXX and tech status is XXX. The initial approach fix is based on the IBA at 20 miles and we need to be at or above 4000'. We will be expecting radar vectors....or.... course of 233 to 16dme, min 2200', then left turn onto track 196 to pick up the inbound course of 243. We expect to pick this up at 13.6d from the IBA. I will fly the approach with the automatics in initially. We should pick up the glide from 1500 ft at around 5.5d IBA (or more likely work back depending on what they normally clear you to start the approach from at Ibiza, at 1900' at 6.7d perhaps, or say 2200 ft at around 8d or whatever). The check altitudes are based on the IBA VOR. Its a standard 3 degree glide, with a minima of 218 ft, 550m (check its set up), with a go-around gradient of 3% which we can make on one engine. The gradient is due to a couple of obstructions either side of track so will make sure we stay on course. If we do go missed, I will apply TOGA power, call go-around flap, positive climb, gear up, then climb to 2000' on the heading - 243 - then a left turn back to IBZ NDB climbing to 3000 ft to hold. This is all in the box and so will be flown using managed nav. If we continue to landing I will use medium autobrake and idle reverse. I will be aiming to exit at (exit point). The runway length and slope is XXX. Fuel reserves - 1st alternate - weather and initial track. Any questions, anything to add, anything I've missed....."
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....We expect to pick this up at 13.6d from the IBA. I will fly the approach with the automatics in initially. We should pick up the glide from 1500 ft at around 5.5d IBA (or more likely work back depending on what they normally clear you to start the approach from at Ibiza, at 1900' at 6.7d perhaps, or say 2200 ft at around 8d or whatever). The check altitudes are based on the IBA VOR. Its a standard 3 degree glide, with a minima of 218 ft, 550m (check its set up), with a go-around gradient of 3% which we can make on one engine. The gradient is due to a couple of obstructions either side of track so will make sure we stay on course. If we do go missed, I will apply TOGA power, call go-around flap, positive climb, gear up, then climb to 2000' on the heading - 243 - then a left turn back to IBZ NDB climbing to 3000 ft to hold. This is all in the box and so will be flown using managed nav. If we continue to landing I will use medium autobrake and idle reverse. I will be aiming to exit at (exit point). The runway length and slope is XXX. Fuel reserves - 1st alternate - weather and initial track.
Now, some may think that I am 'too brief', yet the above is the opposite....much too long-winded, and if the First Officer mentioned all this, I would have serious doubts about his ability...
Odd that you should mention Cali. That accident would seem to be the poster child for not "tossing it down on the center console, and saying...any questions?"
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Well I would say that Airbus girl has pretty much hit on what the 3 airlines I have worked for in Europe are looking for in a brief. You can get through that lot in just over a minute.
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This thread is hilarious. There have been 71 posts. Yet no-one has just done a simple "say this" approach briefing for the plate in question!!!!
It wasn't that the point was missed, it was rather a case of what was the point? If the poster had asked for an example of your inflight PA to the passengers, it would have been much the same. There would have been as many different versions as there were people who replied.
I 'get' 411A and I know where he's coming from,...you've got to dispel your personal prejudices and actually hear wgat is being said,...we should look at ourselves before criticizing othersPA
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(p.s still standing by for comments on GA procedures for HKG 25R.)
By the time the dunlops are out of the airstream, and you have given atc a hoy, (they watch you anyway), the tend to give you radar vectors to the South to slot into the radar pattern for another go. This is generally a much better low pucker factor option, than leaving you on the MAP track which was cleverly designed to take you over all the big lumpy bits of the New Territories.
They only slight gotcha is the departing traffic off the parrallel runway 25L, but distance/performance means you normally out climb 'em with you going to your normal altitude and the departing traffic, if close, restricted to 3/4000'.
As for the thread topic, it was not that long ago that the company who pays me, required an epic of 'war and peace' proportions for both arrival AND! departure briefs.
Painfull to listen to, and even if you managed to stay awake for the many minutes it took for the PF to reguritate, was often missing the important bits. As a result, it was realised that it became ineffective, and a significantly shorter version was introduced. Personally, this is still too long, and borders on stating the bleedin' obvious.
Despite 411a trying to wind people up, (as if
), I have to agree with him that 'less is better', and quite possibly, 'least is best', providing the briefing is kept to the few salient points and covers the threats that are likely to bite you in the ass.
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I believe some of us are looking for the word CONCISE, aren't we? Legal aspects aren't to be neglected as well, however practical relevance saves our butts.
Cheers fellas
Cheers fellas
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did you see the upper left corner of the chart???? "Briefing strip" normally in most airlines if 2.5 % or more gradient is required , or in case of missed approach after single engine and overweight landing, or high ambient temperatures the company has an alternate procedure for go around, normally is the ENGINE OUT SID.
so you follow the "Briefing strip " ,and then mention that for Go around you will follow the SPECIAL ENGINE OUT SID you can coordinate that with the app control ,in case of Go around, request what is stated in your ENG OUT SID.
I might be wrong ,but that is how we operate in all those apts
so you follow the "Briefing strip " ,and then mention that for Go around you will follow the SPECIAL ENGINE OUT SID you can coordinate that with the app control ,in case of Go around, request what is stated in your ENG OUT SID.
I might be wrong ,but that is how we operate in all those apts
Last edited by Bad to the bones; 31st Aug 2009 at 19:44.
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For the purpose of this briefing, I have googled the latest METAR LEIB 311930Z 10006KT 050V140 CAVOK 27/22 Q1016 NOSIG=, and assuming no significant NOTAMs and arrival from the North East from FL300
Without further song and dance here's my brief
"If you're ready for it I'll brief the arrival and approach into Ibiza?"
"We will start descent with 90 miles to IBA, and expect vectors to the ILS, which is on plate 11-1 effective 4th of october 2001 [check that the other pilot has that chart] . The approach is based on localiser IBZ 109.5, final approach course is 243. Highest MORA on the way in is xxxx feet, MSA withn 25 miles of IBZ NDB is 2800 feet, no corrections. Intial approach altitude 1900 feet to glideslope, check glide at LOM 1500 feet. Continue to DA 218 feet baro, 3% missed approach is no problem today. We hope to see high intensity approach lighst with multiple crossbars and papi on left side, if not, we'll go around, climb straight ahead to 2000' feet, the left turn back to the locator and up to 3000' feet, parallell entry. The weather is all good, slight tailwind, if that should increase, we'll opt to circle to runway 06 in which case I'll rebrief the altitudes. The same goes if we have to enter the approach procedurally. No NOTAMs to affect us, fuel is plenty to hold for at least 30 minutes before going to [wherever], and no special company procedures. 100 knots across the threshold and after landing we'll turn off [left/right]. Questions, comments? Anything you would like to add? Anything dangerous we didn't talk about?"
Without further song and dance here's my brief
"If you're ready for it I'll brief the arrival and approach into Ibiza?"
"We will start descent with 90 miles to IBA, and expect vectors to the ILS, which is on plate 11-1 effective 4th of october 2001 [check that the other pilot has that chart] . The approach is based on localiser IBZ 109.5, final approach course is 243. Highest MORA on the way in is xxxx feet, MSA withn 25 miles of IBZ NDB is 2800 feet, no corrections. Intial approach altitude 1900 feet to glideslope, check glide at LOM 1500 feet. Continue to DA 218 feet baro, 3% missed approach is no problem today. We hope to see high intensity approach lighst with multiple crossbars and papi on left side, if not, we'll go around, climb straight ahead to 2000' feet, the left turn back to the locator and up to 3000' feet, parallell entry. The weather is all good, slight tailwind, if that should increase, we'll opt to circle to runway 06 in which case I'll rebrief the altitudes. The same goes if we have to enter the approach procedurally. No NOTAMs to affect us, fuel is plenty to hold for at least 30 minutes before going to [wherever], and no special company procedures. 100 knots across the threshold and after landing we'll turn off [left/right]. Questions, comments? Anything you would like to add? Anything dangerous we didn't talk about?"
Last edited by bfisk; 31st Aug 2009 at 20:11.