Approach Briefing
What happened to the old principle of KISS-"Keep It Simple, Stupid"-? Over the years, the Jepp charts have become more and more cluttered, with "information duplication overload", unlike earlier charts which were much clearer, just like (dare I say it), Aerad. These days, it's hard to see the wood from the trees.
3.0% versus 2.8% missed approach climb gradient minima on those Ibiza charts? Who cares! How often are you landing at such a weight that this would have any significance? I am sure most of todays commercial jets would have no problem achieving these figures, except maybe after losing an engine on a heavywt/hot/high or terrain challenged departure and returning to land. But if the performance calcs (2.4%) allowed you to get airborne and climb out in that condition, the landing should be no problem where G/A is concerned, (unless you lose more donks, in which case it's not your day; bugging the appropriate Cat 1 minima could then be academic-280' instead of 249' on the baro?!. I'd be looking for somewhere else to go if conditions were that bad.)
If the relevant authorities are that concerned, then please publish gradients etc (and many do this) in 10-1P amongst all the other legal junk that we plough through at our leisure during cruise. Just like Notams, the important items are often buried away amongst all the out-of date stuff. Thank God for the sharp F/O's who are usually pretty good at sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
These days, too many of these procedures seem to be written by lawyers, not pilots. If you have the time or the inclination, have a look at the missed approach procedure for Runway 25R at Hong Kong; I call it-"The Go-Around from Hell". Does anyone actually attempt to fly it when the chips are down?!
3.0% versus 2.8% missed approach climb gradient minima on those Ibiza charts? Who cares! How often are you landing at such a weight that this would have any significance? I am sure most of todays commercial jets would have no problem achieving these figures, except maybe after losing an engine on a heavywt/hot/high or terrain challenged departure and returning to land. But if the performance calcs (2.4%) allowed you to get airborne and climb out in that condition, the landing should be no problem where G/A is concerned, (unless you lose more donks, in which case it's not your day; bugging the appropriate Cat 1 minima could then be academic-280' instead of 249' on the baro?!. I'd be looking for somewhere else to go if conditions were that bad.)
If the relevant authorities are that concerned, then please publish gradients etc (and many do this) in 10-1P amongst all the other legal junk that we plough through at our leisure during cruise. Just like Notams, the important items are often buried away amongst all the out-of date stuff. Thank God for the sharp F/O's who are usually pretty good at sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
These days, too many of these procedures seem to be written by lawyers, not pilots. If you have the time or the inclination, have a look at the missed approach procedure for Runway 25R at Hong Kong; I call it-"The Go-Around from Hell". Does anyone actually attempt to fly it when the chips are down?!
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Missed approach on glide at DH,
Missed approach at MDA(G/S inop):600 feet about 3 mils..no level off and no dipping under passed the Visual descent point for a 3 degrees continued desent if visual passed IBA 3miles.
Was bit too quick saying DME read 0 at threshold,hence the need to look at the chart longer than a few seconds.... but slant range
NOTAMS,Lights (especially which side of the runway are the Vasi/papi in case of non precision approach)...
I am not experienced and I still listen to my Fos brief even if too long...they dont only try to brief you but also briefing themselves so let them be:-)
PEACE
Missed approach at MDA(G/S inop):600 feet about 3 mils..no level off and no dipping under passed the Visual descent point for a 3 degrees continued desent if visual passed IBA 3miles.
Was bit too quick saying DME read 0 at threshold,hence the need to look at the chart longer than a few seconds.... but slant range
NOTAMS,Lights (especially which side of the runway are the Vasi/papi in case of non precision approach)...
I am not experienced and I still listen to my Fos brief even if too long...they dont only try to brief you but also briefing themselves so let them be:-)
PEACE
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Phantom Driver, as far as I can see it's 2,5 versus 3% to start with. You're absolutely right though it's somewhat academical and shouldn't be a problem in normal configuration which all procedures are designed for. Procedure design doesn't take EO conditions into account thus it's operators responsibility to assure performance requirements are met regardless of the configuration. That's the reason any reputable airline will nowadays have landing performance module on it's LPC and it's part of the approach briefing to calculate actual landing performance and go around. You brought up vivid memories about HKG with all it's crazy missed approaches. I believe on 07L the missed approach climb out gradient required is 7% or so till 4000ft clearly on the edge of SE capabilities of a twin, of course dependable on all the data implied.
That's the reason why EO procedures are flown in case of EO OPS instead of published go around where the performance isn't met. Another topic though.
I'll allow my self to disagree with you on that for following reason TO performance EU OPS class A is finished at 1500 ft AAL unless stated otherwise in charts or notams. GO Around climb gradient is a constant value to be maintained till the obstacle clearance of 164 ft is obtained in the final segment which may be well above 1500 ft AAL.
Purely academical approach not that critical in IBZ on a sunny CAVOK day.
Cheers.
That's the reason why EO procedures are flown in case of EO OPS instead of published go around where the performance isn't met. Another topic though.
But if the performance calcs (2.4%) allowed you to get airborne and climb out in that condition, the landing should be no problem where G/A is concerned,
Purely academical approach not that critical in IBZ on a sunny CAVOK day.
Cheers.
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I'll give it a try.
Given that I'm cleared to the D20 IBA IAF flying my current type (Bambino Saab):
Formalia
ILS approach rwy 24, Ibiza, 11 dash 1, 28'th of sept 01
Frequency 109.5 with DME hold on IBA VOR 117.8
ADF set to 394 IBZ
Final Approach Track 243
Sector Altitude 2800
Tracks and navigation
Cross D20 IBA inbound on track 233 at 4000 feet or above, inside D20 lowest altitude is 2200 feet.
D 16 IBA, left turn to 196 to intercept the ILS, when established descend to 1900 feet. Pick up the glide at D6.9 IBA.
Altitudes and checks for the final approach
Check outer marker at 1490, minima 218 feet and 550 meters RVR.
Missed approach procedure
When going around, I'll call going around, flaps 7, set power, positive rate, gear up, LRN Nav, indicated airspeed. I'll continue straight ahead 2000 feet, left turn and join IBZ holding at 3000 feet.
Brief any use of non standard company procedures
High speed/low drag approach, noiseabadement
Open up to feedback and corrections
Any questions?
I think it's important to talk about how you intend to fly the approach, even though it at first glance may look very straight forward. On charts with a lot of intermediate altitudes during the arrival segment, it can often be confusing which altitude applies to which segment (look at the ENSN LLZ19 chart if you have access to it and you'll see what I mean). Therefore, it doesn't hurt to talk about the flightpath up the glideslope intercept so as to clear any questionmarks. It's a good way to spot errors before you make them.
Don't try and memorize all the formalia. This is just used to check that the navaids are set properly and that both have the same plate and edition. Put that energy on limiting factors such as altitudes, distances and turning directions.
If your company offers you several different procedures for you to use depending on the prevailing conditions, state which procedure you will use. Especially if they involve automatic configuration changes that are prompted by a sequence and not by the initiation of the handling pilot. In my case this would be the high speed/low drag approach that indicates that I as the flying pilot will call for condition levers to be set to max a opposed to them following automatically after the final flap setting.
And as stated by previous posters, with experience and especially experience related to that particular approach and airport, the briefing can be slightly compressed, offering more of your capacity to actually flying the aircraft and executing the approach as safely as possible. Remember that you cannot brief an aircraft to the stand, it has to be flown...
I hope this was any help.
/LnS
Given that I'm cleared to the D20 IBA IAF flying my current type (Bambino Saab):
Formalia
ILS approach rwy 24, Ibiza, 11 dash 1, 28'th of sept 01
Frequency 109.5 with DME hold on IBA VOR 117.8
ADF set to 394 IBZ
Final Approach Track 243
Sector Altitude 2800
Tracks and navigation
Cross D20 IBA inbound on track 233 at 4000 feet or above, inside D20 lowest altitude is 2200 feet.
D 16 IBA, left turn to 196 to intercept the ILS, when established descend to 1900 feet. Pick up the glide at D6.9 IBA.
Altitudes and checks for the final approach
Check outer marker at 1490, minima 218 feet and 550 meters RVR.
Missed approach procedure
When going around, I'll call going around, flaps 7, set power, positive rate, gear up, LRN Nav, indicated airspeed. I'll continue straight ahead 2000 feet, left turn and join IBZ holding at 3000 feet.
Brief any use of non standard company procedures
High speed/low drag approach, noiseabadement
Open up to feedback and corrections
Any questions?
I think it's important to talk about how you intend to fly the approach, even though it at first glance may look very straight forward. On charts with a lot of intermediate altitudes during the arrival segment, it can often be confusing which altitude applies to which segment (look at the ENSN LLZ19 chart if you have access to it and you'll see what I mean). Therefore, it doesn't hurt to talk about the flightpath up the glideslope intercept so as to clear any questionmarks. It's a good way to spot errors before you make them.
Don't try and memorize all the formalia. This is just used to check that the navaids are set properly and that both have the same plate and edition. Put that energy on limiting factors such as altitudes, distances and turning directions.
If your company offers you several different procedures for you to use depending on the prevailing conditions, state which procedure you will use. Especially if they involve automatic configuration changes that are prompted by a sequence and not by the initiation of the handling pilot. In my case this would be the high speed/low drag approach that indicates that I as the flying pilot will call for condition levers to be set to max a opposed to them following automatically after the final flap setting.
And as stated by previous posters, with experience and especially experience related to that particular approach and airport, the briefing can be slightly compressed, offering more of your capacity to actually flying the aircraft and executing the approach as safely as possible. Remember that you cannot brief an aircraft to the stand, it has to be flown...
I hope this was any help.
/LnS
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What happened to the old principle of KISS-"Keep It Simple, Stupid"-?
I watched early A300-600 guys do this nonsense, meanwhile, those of us on the L10 practised the...(mostly) silent FD routine.
IMO, more talking...less (proper) action.
IE: been known to happen....
Now, lets look at departures.
Some SIDs can be a tad complicated, and they require a 'brief' briefing...however, for the normal airlines standard procedures on takeoff...I normally announce...."standard company calls'.
Have everyone actually read the manual?
Yes, they have been doing these procedures for the last 10 years....at least.
KISS...a well known commodity, that works well, provided everyone is on the same page of music...and make no mistake, we most certainly ARE
Last edited by 411A; 27th Aug 2009 at 19:19.
I must admit that it really makes me wonder, when some folks I fly with say "Sandard calls and drills" ... and then proceed to give me chapter and verse as to what that entails. On EVERY sector of a six trip day.
Either - or, *please*!
Either - or, *please*!
DOVE
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Dear 'airyana' a good example of briefing is that one shown by 'low n 'slow'. By the way I want you to notice that on the top left of each Jeppesen map there is a small note written near the top: "Briefing Strip". This is exactly what that strip, together: I and my co-pilot, two of my students or examinees in the simulator or on-line, in the past, and now my IFR student pilots, with or without FMS, accessed and cross-controlled, integrated with relevant NOTAM, before each and every beginning of descent for the approach.
I, too, when I used to land in JED, BRU or NYC only, sometimes in Taipei, already knew each and every single map by heart, yet claimed that the Pilot Flying did the briefing for the landing.
And only in very rare cases accepted a change of runway at the last minute.
For other tricks like the missed approach gradient, the procedure turn, the racetrack, those are issues to be studied during the homework. Even today, before leaving for a series of instructional flights, after 44 years and 22000 hours flying (well say that I am a novice), among other things I Take a refresh at home of airports maps interesting to me.
I say again: only Minima and Go Around procedure have to be memorised (according to a major intercontinental Carrier I've been flying for).
Regards
DOVES
I, too, when I used to land in JED, BRU or NYC only, sometimes in Taipei, already knew each and every single map by heart, yet claimed that the Pilot Flying did the briefing for the landing.
And only in very rare cases accepted a change of runway at the last minute.
For other tricks like the missed approach gradient, the procedure turn, the racetrack, those are issues to be studied during the homework. Even today, before leaving for a series of instructional flights, after 44 years and 22000 hours flying (well say that I am a novice), among other things I Take a refresh at home of airports maps interesting to me.
I say again: only Minima and Go Around procedure have to be memorised (according to a major intercontinental Carrier I've been flying for).
Regards
DOVES
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This is how we learn it [Assuming good WX conditons + approach from the northeast with no racetrack procedure req'd]
"ILS Rwy 24 into Ibiza.
MSA 2800, highest terrain to the right of the approach track.
DME-20 IBA VOR at or above 4000, then after DME-16 a left turn to intercept the localizer or radar vectors onto final.
Glide slope intercept from 1900 feet at DME-7 from the VOR, 3° slope, final altitude 1500' at the OM, decision altitude 270' to cater for the worst-case climb gradient.
Missed Approach straight ahead to 2000 on heading 243, then a left turn direct to IBZ NDB, climbing 3000.
Nav Setup: I've got IBZ 109,5 / final approach course 243 for the ILS on NAV1, Ibiza VOR on NAV2. NDB 394 for the go-around.
Flap 30 landing, Autobrakes 3, approach speed 145.
Wind from the right at 10." [Any special items such as runway condition, WX, config, taxi procedures, fuel/divert situation etc etc amend here if required]
Final + Decision Altitude & MAP are by-heart items. Turned out quite similar to low'n slow's version. As a cade... eerm correction, soon-to-be 200-hour-wonder, I'm quite happy with that (I swear I didn't look
I find 411's opinion on briefings quite interesting and the experience on which that must be based admirable. However, even most 15.000 hour captains in our company would prefer a slightly longer briefing. It doesn't really hurt anyone to talk and establish/confirm a mind-set WITHOUT sounding like an aviation psychologist in a CRM lesson
That said, I've heard briefings like... "yeah well, there's the field, let's go and land on it". If it's the 6th leg on a CAVOK-day, a well-known 4000 meter runway with vectors to final and everyone on the flight deck is happy with that, why not?
"ILS Rwy 24 into Ibiza.
MSA 2800, highest terrain to the right of the approach track.
DME-20 IBA VOR at or above 4000, then after DME-16 a left turn to intercept the localizer or radar vectors onto final.
Glide slope intercept from 1900 feet at DME-7 from the VOR, 3° slope, final altitude 1500' at the OM, decision altitude 270' to cater for the worst-case climb gradient.
Missed Approach straight ahead to 2000 on heading 243, then a left turn direct to IBZ NDB, climbing 3000.
Nav Setup: I've got IBZ 109,5 / final approach course 243 for the ILS on NAV1, Ibiza VOR on NAV2. NDB 394 for the go-around.
Flap 30 landing, Autobrakes 3, approach speed 145.
Wind from the right at 10." [Any special items such as runway condition, WX, config, taxi procedures, fuel/divert situation etc etc amend here if required]
Final + Decision Altitude & MAP are by-heart items. Turned out quite similar to low'n slow's version. As a cade... eerm correction, soon-to-be 200-hour-wonder, I'm quite happy with that (I swear I didn't look
I find 411's opinion on briefings quite interesting and the experience on which that must be based admirable. However, even most 15.000 hour captains in our company would prefer a slightly longer briefing. It doesn't really hurt anyone to talk and establish/confirm a mind-set WITHOUT sounding like an aviation psychologist in a CRM lesson
That said, I've heard briefings like... "yeah well, there's the field, let's go and land on it". If it's the 6th leg on a CAVOK-day, a well-known 4000 meter runway with vectors to final and everyone on the flight deck is happy with that, why not?
Last edited by Speedbird715; 27th Aug 2009 at 22:45.
This is the 'funnest' thread in ages!
Ol' 411A is getting a bit of flak but I have to say I agree with much of what he's posted. Unless you're a test pilot about to take a new type for its first flight, there's very little need for long winded, statements-of-the-bleedin'-obvious recitation. Lots of information, most of it redundant.
"...10DME at 3,000' ... blah ... QDM and frequency ... blah ... 3 degree slope ... blah ... height of the outer marker is ... blah ..." *snore*. Yes, I can read an approach plate too.
Tell/ask me what's different about today that might cause a problem: density altitude? Tailwinds? Other traffic? Going visual? Windshear? MEL? Feeling tired? Etc. If there's a bit of novelty concerning the destination, then a bit of the "how" as well as the "what" can be useful and sometimes shows you're trying to do something inadvisable.
Why do we have briefings? Is it:
a) so we can tick all the items off in the checklist? Or,
b) that the entire crew is happy with plan 'A' and some of the less outlandish eventualities surrounding it?
Ol' 411A is getting a bit of flak but I have to say I agree with much of what he's posted. Unless you're a test pilot about to take a new type for its first flight, there's very little need for long winded, statements-of-the-bleedin'-obvious recitation. Lots of information, most of it redundant.
"...10DME at 3,000' ... blah ... QDM and frequency ... blah ... 3 degree slope ... blah ... height of the outer marker is ... blah ..." *snore*. Yes, I can read an approach plate too.
Tell/ask me what's different about today that might cause a problem: density altitude? Tailwinds? Other traffic? Going visual? Windshear? MEL? Feeling tired? Etc. If there's a bit of novelty concerning the destination, then a bit of the "how" as well as the "what" can be useful and sometimes shows you're trying to do something inadvisable.Why do we have briefings? Is it:
a) so we can tick all the items off in the checklist? Or,
b) that the entire crew is happy with plan 'A' and some of the less outlandish eventualities surrounding it?
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The most embarrasing thing that can happen is to be surprised when you come to a turn that you weren't prepared for.
The phrase "what is it doing now?" comes to mind.
Brief and just go thorugh what you plan to do so that the guy besides you can be spared from any surprises such as "what the
are you doing?" or "where are you going?".
If you fly to the same place 3 times a day with the same guy, focus on the non standards. Look for CB's, small planes without mode C, fatigue, complacency or any other than normal master cautions
I fully agree with the KISS rule, but whenever I'm flying with someone I usually don't fly with, or have never flown with, I brief it in full, just to clear any questionmarks. It's a good indicator of the style in which you fly. After that first approach, both know what you aim for and how you like to execute your sectors. This helps as the day continues.
/LnS
The phrase "what is it doing now?" comes to mind.
Brief and just go thorugh what you plan to do so that the guy besides you can be spared from any surprises such as "what the
are you doing?" or "where are you going?".If you fly to the same place 3 times a day with the same guy, focus on the non standards. Look for CB's, small planes without mode C, fatigue, complacency or any other than normal master cautions
I fully agree with the KISS rule, but whenever I'm flying with someone I usually don't fly with, or have never flown with, I brief it in full, just to clear any questionmarks. It's a good indicator of the style in which you fly. After that first approach, both know what you aim for and how you like to execute your sectors. This helps as the day continues.
/LnS
411A
I have to say I am amazed a large jet aircraft operator is too cheap to provide approach charts for both pilots.
my 02 cents is if I am the PNF I want to know what flight path PF intends to fly. This could be as simple as "visual descent to join a 5 mile final for runway 09" any questions ? (For a clear and a million day to a familar airport) to a quite lengthly discussion (for a bad wx, unfamilar field, non radar, mountainous terrain approach).
I do think boiler plate descriptions of exactly what you are going to do at every phase of the appraoch and landing and possible overshoot, just get tuned out by the other guy. For eample; so your say you are going to raise the gear when you achieve positive rate..... Like there are other ways to operate the gear
The things you want to talk about are the Gotcha items in the approach so extra vigilance is applied at the appropriate times.
Always flying with the same crew is good in many ways. It can be real poetry in motion as the crew devlopes a rhythm where the flight proceeds in such a smooth and inevitable way it is like magic. but you do have to guard against complaicency and any deviation from what is happening vs what you thought was going to happen, needs to be challenged immediately.
I have to say I am amazed a large jet aircraft operator is too cheap to provide approach charts for both pilots.
my 02 cents is if I am the PNF I want to know what flight path PF intends to fly. This could be as simple as "visual descent to join a 5 mile final for runway 09" any questions ? (For a clear and a million day to a familar airport) to a quite lengthly discussion (for a bad wx, unfamilar field, non radar, mountainous terrain approach).
I do think boiler plate descriptions of exactly what you are going to do at every phase of the appraoch and landing and possible overshoot, just get tuned out by the other guy. For eample; so your say you are going to raise the gear when you achieve positive rate..... Like there are other ways to operate the gear
The things you want to talk about are the Gotcha items in the approach so extra vigilance is applied at the appropriate times.Always flying with the same crew is good in many ways. It can be real poetry in motion as the crew devlopes a rhythm where the flight proceeds in such a smooth and inevitable way it is like magic. but you do have to guard against complaicency and any deviation from what is happening vs what you thought was going to happen, needs to be challenged immediately.
Apart from KISS. don't you remember that old favourite?--
"Briefings should be like miniskirts-Long enough to cover the essentials and Short enough to keep you interested".
As already mentioned by others, when the crunch comes, you usually end up doing something different from what you planned/briefed anyway. Fact of life; not helped by those longwinded briefs that simply engender zzz's in all concerned.
Saudia (as an example) used to brief -"Chart 11-1-dated xxx-any comments?". As supposed professionals, that really should be enough, i.e we're all looking at the correct chart. If you're not a professional in your attitude to the job in hand, all the briefing in the world is not going to make much of a difference.
(p.s still standing by for comments on GA procedures for HKG 25R.)
(p.p.s- by the way, my comments refer purely to the approach chart. Of course, unusual circumstances that relate to weather etc deserve special comment. This is a natural part of our trade-AIRMANSHIP.
"Briefings should be like miniskirts-Long enough to cover the essentials and Short enough to keep you interested".
As already mentioned by others, when the crunch comes, you usually end up doing something different from what you planned/briefed anyway. Fact of life; not helped by those longwinded briefs that simply engender zzz's in all concerned.
Saudia (as an example) used to brief -"Chart 11-1-dated xxx-any comments?". As supposed professionals, that really should be enough, i.e we're all looking at the correct chart. If you're not a professional in your attitude to the job in hand, all the briefing in the world is not going to make much of a difference.
(p.s still standing by for comments on GA procedures for HKG 25R.)
(p.p.s- by the way, my comments refer purely to the approach chart. Of course, unusual circumstances that relate to weather etc deserve special comment. This is a natural part of our trade-AIRMANSHIP.
Last edited by Phantom Driver; 28th Aug 2009 at 17:54. Reason: addendum
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d) To honor the memory of the pilots (not ignoring what they wanted to teach us with their error), and all the occupants of AA Flight 965 crashed in the BUGA 20/Dic/1995 due to:
1. The flightcrew's failure to adequately plan and execute the approach to runway 19 at SKCL and their inadequate use of automation.
2. Failure of the flightcrew to discontinue the approach into Cali, despite numerous cues alerting them of the inadvisability of continuing the approach.
3. The lack of situational awareness of the flightcrew regarding vertical navigation, proximity to terrain, and the relative location of critical radio aids.
4. Failure of the flightcrew to revert to basic radio navigation at the time when the FMS-assisted navigation became confusing and demanded an
excessive workload in a critical phase of the flight.
Regards
DOVES
Romano
1. The flightcrew's failure to adequately plan and execute the approach to runway 19 at SKCL and their inadequate use of automation.
2. Failure of the flightcrew to discontinue the approach into Cali, despite numerous cues alerting them of the inadvisability of continuing the approach.
3. The lack of situational awareness of the flightcrew regarding vertical navigation, proximity to terrain, and the relative location of critical radio aids.
4. Failure of the flightcrew to revert to basic radio navigation at the time when the FMS-assisted navigation became confusing and demanded an
excessive workload in a critical phase of the flight.
Regards
DOVES
Romano
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d) To honor the memory of the pilots (not ignoring what they wanted to teach us with their error), and all the occupants of AA Flight 965 crashed in the BUGA 20/Dic/1995 due to:
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Phantom Driver
I think I'm missing something. If that's the "go-around from hell" i'd hate to show you some difficult ones. Climb straight ahead to 3dme then turn right to the vor climbing to 4000'. By then you've had around 4 mins to clean up, talk to atc and read the next (not difficult) bit of the procedure. Not exactly beyond a professional crew i'd have thought.
As for the original question, the brief depends on the circumstances. Flying with someone i know to be experienced into somewhere we're both familiar with on a nice day - chuck the plate in the middle and "any questions" is about right. Line training a 200 hour newbie who's struggling, then I'd want the whole nine yards to be sure they actually can read the plate, then remind them which bits they need to remember and which bits they'll have time to read as they go along. Spouting lots of cr@p to satisfy some "standard" just shows that the guy who wrote the standard doesn't know what (s)he's on about. A lot of them about these days.
I think I'm missing something. If that's the "go-around from hell" i'd hate to show you some difficult ones. Climb straight ahead to 3dme then turn right to the vor climbing to 4000'. By then you've had around 4 mins to clean up, talk to atc and read the next (not difficult) bit of the procedure. Not exactly beyond a professional crew i'd have thought.
As for the original question, the brief depends on the circumstances. Flying with someone i know to be experienced into somewhere we're both familiar with on a nice day - chuck the plate in the middle and "any questions" is about right. Line training a 200 hour newbie who's struggling, then I'd want the whole nine yards to be sure they actually can read the plate, then remind them which bits they need to remember and which bits they'll have time to read as they go along. Spouting lots of cr@p to satisfy some "standard" just shows that the guy who wrote the standard doesn't know what (s)he's on about. A lot of them about these days.
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Our FHB and checklists give a list of the minimum information to be covered in the takeoff and approach briefings. Yours should, too. Adhere to those minimums, and add info as needed for the situation.
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When this question was first posed, I did wonder what was the point. Supplying an example of an approach brief would be fairly pointless, since it would be a personal embellishment of a template. If a thousand of us did it there would be a thousand variants. Most would contain the salient points, but all would omit the real world variables that change all of the time. So what?
One thing that has been highlighted by the thread, is some of the perceived value that different people apply to these briefings, and that is certainly interesting. The idea that presenting an approach plate to somebody in lieu of any briefing certainly causes a raised eyebrow in front of this screen. The briefing is supposed to be a verbal comunication that tells the other flight deck crew how that pilot is going to conduct that approach. Whatever is contained within that brief, it allows one additional layer of safety, in that any errors or misinterpretations, or personal observations can be accepted or queried.
I have had people brief me an approach that contained a complete misinterpretation of a plate. I have misread category minima, and missed important points, and used wrong or outdated charts, where the listening pilot or engineer picked up the error. That is the whole point. It almost doesn't matter what actually happens, or changes, or the style of presentation. What matters is that the crew are all being brought back into a focused loop where an opportunity to agree or question should afford some degree of additional safety. If you simply say "there is the plate, that is what I am doing." How does anybody else know that you haven't misunderstood something, or made an error in your own personal mental model?
The biggest danger is always one of complacency. Like some of you, I have sat there in a warm shirt sleeved environment, cocooned for over 3 decades listening to much of the same thing every day. It is sometimes very much easier to say rather than actually do, when it comes to avoiding complacency, or irritation over repetition. The problem is that this can be an insidious enemy, where routine, reliability, familiarity, experience and ego can all combine to make these briefings less effective than they should be, and clearly in some cases completely worthless.
A lot of people who flew into mountains, or the ground, or the sea had also flown safely and effectively for decades, until the fateful day. Knowing what somebody intends doing or how they interpret an approach can be very helpful before things start going wrong, and the rapid cascade of events and distractions makes it too late to revisit that particular element.
Maybe some of us need to remind ourselves that we are not as invulnerable as we have led ourselves to believe we are.
One thing that has been highlighted by the thread, is some of the perceived value that different people apply to these briefings, and that is certainly interesting. The idea that presenting an approach plate to somebody in lieu of any briefing certainly causes a raised eyebrow in front of this screen. The briefing is supposed to be a verbal comunication that tells the other flight deck crew how that pilot is going to conduct that approach. Whatever is contained within that brief, it allows one additional layer of safety, in that any errors or misinterpretations, or personal observations can be accepted or queried.
I have had people brief me an approach that contained a complete misinterpretation of a plate. I have misread category minima, and missed important points, and used wrong or outdated charts, where the listening pilot or engineer picked up the error. That is the whole point. It almost doesn't matter what actually happens, or changes, or the style of presentation. What matters is that the crew are all being brought back into a focused loop where an opportunity to agree or question should afford some degree of additional safety. If you simply say "there is the plate, that is what I am doing." How does anybody else know that you haven't misunderstood something, or made an error in your own personal mental model?
The biggest danger is always one of complacency. Like some of you, I have sat there in a warm shirt sleeved environment, cocooned for over 3 decades listening to much of the same thing every day. It is sometimes very much easier to say rather than actually do, when it comes to avoiding complacency, or irritation over repetition. The problem is that this can be an insidious enemy, where routine, reliability, familiarity, experience and ego can all combine to make these briefings less effective than they should be, and clearly in some cases completely worthless.
A lot of people who flew into mountains, or the ground, or the sea had also flown safely and effectively for decades, until the fateful day. Knowing what somebody intends doing or how they interpret an approach can be very helpful before things start going wrong, and the rapid cascade of events and distractions makes it too late to revisit that particular element.
Maybe some of us need to remind ourselves that we are not as invulnerable as we have led ourselves to believe we are.
DOVE
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Bealzebub I love you!
What I meant was exactly that: in my cockpit there is not, there's never been, and won't never be any crew member who is sure that I am infallible. That is, if at any time somebody feels the need to go around because who is at that moment at controls, is not doing what he was expected to do, can and must do so (according to the Pilot Incapacitation Procedure). It's 'a bit' as the billiard player who declares what his shot will be. He is 'predictable' (and that's what we want), but he is also easily criticized when and if he don't do what he said.
Quote:
d) To honor the memory of the pilots (not ignoring what they wanted to teach us with their error), and all the occupants of AA Flight 965 crashed in the BUGA 20/Dic/1995 due to:
...
IF the respective pilots had continued with the original plan (instead of accepting an ill-advised last minute change, with concurrant FMS duff gen)...we wouldn't be reading about them...now. ...
Quote:
2. Failure of the flightcrew to discontinue the approach into Cali, despite numerous cues alerting them of the inadvisability of continuing the approach.
Quote:
And only in very rare cases accepted a change of runway at the last minute.
Regards
DOVES
What I meant was exactly that: in my cockpit there is not, there's never been, and won't never be any crew member who is sure that I am infallible. That is, if at any time somebody feels the need to go around because who is at that moment at controls, is not doing what he was expected to do, can and must do so (according to the Pilot Incapacitation Procedure). It's 'a bit' as the billiard player who declares what his shot will be. He is 'predictable' (and that's what we want), but he is also easily criticized when and if he don't do what he said.
Quote:
d) To honor the memory of the pilots (not ignoring what they wanted to teach us with their error), and all the occupants of AA Flight 965 crashed in the BUGA 20/Dic/1995 due to:
...
IF the respective pilots had continued with the original plan (instead of accepting an ill-advised last minute change, with concurrant FMS duff gen)...we wouldn't be reading about them...now. ...
Quote:
2. Failure of the flightcrew to discontinue the approach into Cali, despite numerous cues alerting them of the inadvisability of continuing the approach.
Quote:
And only in very rare cases accepted a change of runway at the last minute.
Regards
DOVES