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China Southern wannabes

Old 19th Oct 2015, 00:47
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 56
So, how much more money would it take for you to accept the situation and just do your job?
Plastic fantastic is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2015, 03:48
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Fredericton
Age: 71
Posts: 57
#23 (permalink)
Mr Gammon Flaps

Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: .
Posts: 170

Regarding countering or arguing; I don't want you to. What I have stated above are just facts, nothing more.

18th Oct 2015, 23:47 #24 (permalink)
Plastic fantastic

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 45
So, how much more money would it take for you to accept the situation and just do your job?
How about walking the streets at Kings Cross SYD? Good money too!
Chuck Canuck is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2015, 16:36
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 56

Chuck Canuk,
I tend to agree with you ( if I get your meaning right).
I was ( in the words of Shaw and /or Twain) 'merely discussing price 'with Gammon.
A whore is a whore is a whore.
The wost is the kind that takes the money,then bitches about the customer while claiming all along to be 'hollier than thou'.

Nice to hear you admit your self interest in your 'facts' about CSA.
It appears to me that you would discourage others from investigating employment in an attempt to dry up the interest in CSA only to try and improve your lot at CSA.
What a nice guy you must be to work with. Stirling stuff.

Btw, do you really believe that there is only one airline in the world that smokes?
I can name 3 or 4 outside of China.

Now, why do I care?

Well ,there are many at CSA ( over all fleets)who are content and I am sure that there are others who would be content to work there as well.
May be we are not all professionally and emotionally fulfilled but, content.
I acknowledge that some are not happy and some even livid.
I was speaking to two 777 pilots ,just a week ago ,who are happy but, I understand that you are not.
Every airline has its problems and ,whether they know this or not, they certainly don't want to be told this by foreigners.
It appears to me that you don't realize this.

What is not needed is someone who would risk the success of the expat employment program for his own benefit. After all , it is the high salary in China that will drive up the worldwide remuneration not a lower salary with a tax free carrot.
Your actions threaten the livelihood of many as well as your own.
Do what you want with your own life but, leave mine alone.
Further, what do you know of life at 'real' airlines like Qatar and Etihad?
If you read the multitude of posts about Qatar , you would think twice about joining yet, I have friends there who are happy.
Try doing what your are doing there as see how long you last.

I have heard of 3 who left CSA and now want to return ( 2 went to your 'real' airlines )and ,a 330 pilot who didn't like the commute and left for more family time.

I see two options for you.
Play their game, work hard and they will eventually clear you to fly without an instructor, if you can meet their standard.You will then eventually become a C and then D Class Cpt.
Maybe by then they will get some bases sorted.
Good thing is you will still get your 7 pieces of silver while you wait.

2. As the job doesn't suit you or, you don't suit the job, please leave.

In both cases and ,for the sake of those who are content,I suggest that you keep your opinions to yourself .

Personally, I wish you would choose option 2.
Plastic fantastic is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2015, 15:31
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 56
I certainly hope it is your last word on Prune to get what you want ,regardless of what it might do to the others who work beside you.
As it turns out,I do have some experience With Asian airlines but,I don't have any cunning plans to force industrial change. I gave you my 2 point plan in my last post.
I try to be as content as I can in an industry that is not the one that I entered as a young man.
Gone is the professional standard, mutual respect, honest commitment , intestinal fortitude and comraderie of old. Replaced by people only interested in scamming the system for their own benefit.
On the poor quality of life for Boeing pilots having to commute.
$2000 for a bit of last minute commuting to someone who makes around $ 20,000 p/mth? In my last job , I spent that much EVERY month on commuting. You were just pis-ed that people were cycled through Frankfurt ( there are no discount flights there) and were not able to use the EU 50 cheap ticket from Paris or wherever it was you had bought a cheap advance ticket from. As I say, I spent $24,000 per year on committing for 7 + years. My choice , no Easyjet in Asia.
Before I to sign off, I would like to say that I was recently told by pilots on conversion training that one such pilot ( who I won't 'denigrate ' here) had a cunning plan and took it upon himself to present his 'manifesto of change ' to the company , spelling out how they should run their business. I was told that it was this 'loose cannon 'act that has infact has stuffed commuting for all the Euro based 777 pilots.

You wouldn't know if there is any truth in this or, know who this schemer might be Gammon,would you?
Don't answer, read my 2 point plan again.
Plastic fantastic is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 03:32
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 29
GF. I understand your disappointment, and in most ways CSA are there own worst enemy by making promises they either can't or have no intention of honouring. The agencies are not blameless in this either.

However, there are many of us here who are satisfied, or at least prepared to accept the status quo for the (mostly financial) rewards CSA has to offer.

PF is spot on here. And GF, most of your critiscisms are largely correct. However, this should be of no surprise to anyone here, as all the problems at CSA have been published numerous times, on PPRuNe and other forums. So if you are here you must have arrived with your eyes wide open. Which begs the question, why did you come here?

CSA have and still are addressing the problems here even if it is at a somewhat glacial pace. In my experience, they will listen to solutions and suggestions, but the implementation may well take a considerable time. If you want to stay here, then you need to accept that, or you will be perennially unhappy.

So, I echo PFs sentiments. Either accept the situation or move on.
Savage175 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 06:18
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wyoming
Posts: 211
Plastic and Savage I can see you have some serious "Stockhold Syndrome" going on here. Gammon is simply advising prospective future wannabees his opinion about the atrocities of Dark Ages being perpetrated by CS. It is a HUGE problem and they have to fix it ASAP or will attract ZERO Expats.

1. Smoking in the Cockpit- Stop
2. Being a cruise Captain and begging the PIC for a landing at his level and experience in aviation and professional experience.
3. Pay is falling farther and farther behind as Hainan has increased 787 pay to 25K and now even Xiamen offers 26K for a 737.
4. Training which lasts 1 year at 70% pay
5. Scheduling practices even Napoleon would have been proud of keeping everybody on a perpetual Stand-By Reserve system
6. Having to buy tickets to European gateway cities

I agree no place is perfect but please afford Mr. Gammon his right to express his opinion and in the meantime I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee and perhaps ponder your Stockholm Syndrome situation.
WYOMINGPILOT is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 08:47
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 29
WP - Stockholm Syndrome? If that's what you think then how do you categorise pilots who leave 'high paying legacy airlines' to join CSA when all the problems have been telegraphed almost ad nauseum on this and other forums. If you were here at the start then maybe your complaints would be justified. But if you have arrived since mid 2012 then you would or should have known what to expect. By all means continue to pass on information to 'wannabes', but when lobbying starts to impact negatively on those of us already here, then it becomes a problem.
Savage175 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 09:23
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: europe
Posts: 96

Seriously. Get off your high horse and stop telling people who can and cant post on a public forum. I dont see you being a moderator.

The facts are that everything GF has posted is the absolute truth and no fiction so i dont see whats wrong with saying it how it is so future applicants have an idea of what to expect before appoying for CSA.

Nobody is denying that for some life is very acceptable at CSA but most of those are on the 330 RSP'd from Oz. Thats really great that it works out as it does for you guys but the bottom line is that things are not so rosy on the other fleets.

Couple of extra points:

How much money you earn is really irrelevant to how much you have to spend on commuting IF those expense were not expected. I think you will find that many people would not have taken this job if the RSP was going to be FRA. Many guys live driveable to AMS but not driveable to FRA/CDG/STN. This job is hugely different when you are not reliant on a connecting flight to your home city on landing at your RSP. I wonder how you would feel if CSA suddenly told you that you have to position yourself all over Oz at your own expense on your days off. Easy for you to say now when its not happening to you but i expect your feelings would be slightly different if it ever did happen.

Regarding type rated applicants or 'pilots with experience' as you call them as clearly you are 'one of those' who thinks that flying a WB is more challenging than flying a NB..........yawn!!!!
Anyway the last 2 'pilots with experience' joining the Boeing fleet..........1st one took 5 months to eventually get signed off and the 2nd one joined in July and is still training with no end in immediate sight so also 5 months for him i guess. Maybe these 2 just dont have the 'skill' that you seem to think that you possess but knowing them both well i strongly doubt that.
Therefore you can see that things are not the same on all fleets so letting us 'tell it as it is' for future applicants is what i would want if i was on the outside looking in and trying to make my decision whether to join CSA or not.

mach85 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 14:10
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 56
Mach 85

You sound so much like Gammon that I wonder if he just swapped identities and continued to post.
If you infact are someone else, you haven't been paying attention. It was Gammon that said he wouldn't post any more, 'twas not I telling him.
In fact, it has been he that is playing moderator.
You go on with the the same old sh1te that he has been repeating.
It's stereophonic.

No job that I have ever had has been what I expected.
You only find out after you get there.
Really, you act like amateurs
It is embarrassing.
Have the decency not to act like the spoiled brats.
Things haven't worked out, be professional and deal with it like a man ,instead of acting like a child.

Don't throw your little tantrums on Prune to try and get your way.

If you are at a loss as to what to do, there is a cunning,two point plan;...Wear it or go home. The
Surely you could get another job that is 'drivable'.

You both talk about how good it is on the 330 and RSP out of Australia well, here's a thought that is outside of the square, why don't you swap to the 330 and move out to Australia!

Wait, you two wouldn't be 'Poms ' would you?
If that is the case, disregard the above suggestion because you would soon be complaining about that job as well.
Plastic fantastic is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 17:43
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: europe
Posts: 96

You are so overly protective of your little vegetable patch it's frustrating!! And its more frustrating for the guys on the outside trying to get an objective view of life at CSA and especially on the Boeing-something you know nothing about.

Anyway I have better things to do than dispute the in's and out's of the job with someone who could double up as a CSA advertising banner.

Its funny as im actually quite content here overall and have recently recommended 2 ex colleagues here but that doesn't stop me being objective of the job. Something you also know nothing about.

If anybody out there is looking for info on life on the Boeing then feel free to PM me and ill give you all the info that i can.

Cheers all,
mach85 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 22:29
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 56
Your last paragraph is music to my ears.
I don't care what you say privately.
I won't even respond to the moments about me.
It is however refreshing to see that you are now objective enough to say that you are content.
We at least have some common ground there.

True objectivity would have dictated mentioning that you are content along with your concerns about the place.

Personally, I hope that you do decide to ride out the rough times in the hope that things can get better.
You always can leave if you find it unworkable.

I can now go back and do things that may me happy rather than waste my time on this site.
Plastic fantastic is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 22:36
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 56
Mach 85,
Sorry one last thing.

You didn't comment on my idea about moving fleets and country.

I have moved country about 4 times in the last 12 odd years.
Plastic fantastic is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2015, 08:37
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 126
While many of the current issues raised here are accurate Id like to discuss the issue of this job being called a "cruise captaincy"

I think its detrimental to anyone on this job to make these claims - each fleet while operated differently makes NO mention that those hired will in fact only be operating or occupying the seat only at altitude.

ICAO refers to a cruise Captain / Second Officer or in the case of Transport Canada here as a Cruise Relief Pilot (CRP) as a pilot who operates the aircraft only for the purposes of allowing the Captian and FO to take rest and may only occupy the seat above 10000ft.

The PPC for the CRP intact doesn't even require them to show proffecincy in landing and t/o

IFALPA further defines cruise captaincy which doesn't match the current position at CS..

Forgive me If Im wrong but there remains an expectation at CS for you to complete 3 TO/LDGS every 90 days as stated in the FOM.

In addition recurrent sim training also covers those maneuvers that are both takeoff and landing based.

The FOM outlines progression from new hire captain up to instructor captain -

There are and have been cases of experienced captains stepping into the P1 role on the 77.

removing emotion from the equation - removing the fact that yes you have to ask to get in a landing and removing the emotion that this airline runs asymmetric to ones previous life does not constitute a cruise captaincy.

Suggesting such is only shooting oneself in the foot and will simply start to cause more issues when applying elsewhere -

Is it perfect no

But its not a cruise captaincy job.

This website is indeed a valuable tool for those interested in applying and pursuing positions at any airline but the facts indeed should be devoid of emotion, accurate and nonpartisan

Thanks to all those who contribute.
WJAPilot is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2015, 12:49
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: around 30 West
Posts: 3
WJA pilot,
so if it's not a cruise captain, what is it then?
Somebody mentioned the prospect of becoming a type C, or -good heavens- a type D captain. Then what does it mean to be a type A or B captain?
cockpithumidifier is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2015, 13:45
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Age: 44
Posts: 31
i really don't care about flying as a cruise. No vanity about it !
Let the chinese captain sign the papers!
SkullFlyer is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2015, 17:48
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175

If you have to ask to do the landing then by definition you are not P1.
it maters not what ICAO or any one else chooses to define what a cruise captain is or what qualifications they have to have. The reality is that in practise you are a cruise pilot.

What I would request is that recent joiners give an idea of what the current practise is.
PT6Driver is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2015, 20:54
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 126
Not going to get drawn into a long debate here -

Simple facts are - there are different levels of captains at CS

You are not walking In as a top level captain so you can "run the show"

There is opportunity to move up the captain ranks - but doing so probably means more domestic flying and the reality is no one wants that.

Cruise captains generally don't take off and land - in this job you do.

It is not unusual in many 4 crew airlines to have a discussion in the flight deck on who needs a landing for currency.

Thats it.

Safe Flying.
WJAPilot is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2015, 22:39
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: around 30 West
Posts: 3
I still don't get it.
So even after line training is finished you don't fly as a full captain (type C or D or aka the guy who runs the show)?? So basically they pay you all that serious money to be a glorified first officer? Is that somehow reflected in the number of stripes on your jacket? I'm not looking for a long debate either. I would just like to know what the deal is BEFORE i make any move.
cockpithumidifier is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2015, 08:26
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175

Thank you for the explanations.

Or the benefit of those on the outside looking in, what are the different levels captain and what are their responsibilities/roles.
How does one move up the ranks?
PT6Driver is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2015, 15:53
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: downtown dustbowl
Age: 43
Posts: 274
We sacrifice and compromise a whole lot just considering the notion of moving to China. The eventual conclusion to such a debatable move would be what's next.
I guess what I'm trying to say is what is this going to look like in the logbook? The Chinese NTR game is quite new and eventually we will have a minor glut of guys who have navigated this maze of PIC categories. What exactly are their future employers going to look at when it comes time to tally the hours and the quality and category of experience that has been accumulated during their contract.
We are now dealing with a situation where we are blurring/redefining what a PIC can or cannot do. It might be well known in China but once folks decide to move on where will they stand in the grand scheme of things?
av8r76 is offline  

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