China Southern wannabes
Join Date: Aug 2006
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The Tutti-Fruity flight time is nothing more than SIC flight time. Sadly, the Chinese PIC sometimes share/split the PIC flight time in their logbooks with EXpat pilots but this clearly won't float outside of China. There can be only one PIC, the man who signs the logbook and dispatch release papers as listed as the PIC. Korean Airlines and most of the more reputable recruiting agencies know this China Scam quite well. Korean Airlines sent a B-744 skipper packing last year due to questionable logging of PIC flight time in China so the airline and most recruiting agencies know of this sham. There are a handful of legitimate PICs on the A-330 who do sign the paperwork and are listed as the PIC of record on the paperwork but it rarely happens on the Boeing flights as the Chinese want to fly the shorter flights so ExPats are rarely used on short Domestic flights. Almost every application for every job you fill out will always state to only log PIC as the actual flight time where you signed for the aircraft. In China that rarely happens on International widebody flights. It may change as more Captains increase their longevity and experience or China Southern changes policies but for now its a glorified Cruise Captain job and not even too glorified as you beg for a landing or quietly cower in the corner as the 2 Chinese flying pilots rapidly bellow Chinese cigarette smoke all throughout the cockpit.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Wyoming,
You must simply copy and paste all your posts on this topic because they all have the same information simply repeating itself over and over
Your comments about "cowering" in the corner is an insult to all expats and especially those who work at CS and seem to enjoy the job just fine.
Theres No "scam" here.
Log the time in the seat and keep track of your take off and landings. Collect your money each month and keep a low profile.
When you become the official keeper and judger of what time is valid and what time is not ill be sure to send you my logbook for approval - until then your opinion like mine isn't worth two cents.
Its not rocket science.
You must simply copy and paste all your posts on this topic because they all have the same information simply repeating itself over and over
Your comments about "cowering" in the corner is an insult to all expats and especially those who work at CS and seem to enjoy the job just fine.
Theres No "scam" here.
Log the time in the seat and keep track of your take off and landings. Collect your money each month and keep a low profile.
When you become the official keeper and judger of what time is valid and what time is not ill be sure to send you my logbook for approval - until then your opinion like mine isn't worth two cents.
Its not rocket science.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Wyoming,
What is your beef against pilots joining CSA? You obviously are bitter and twisted for some reason. Could it be you have no escape from your present employer due to circumstances beyond your control?
I have been employed by CS on the B787 since the beginning it is the easiest money I have ever earned in my career. I fly with good guys to great destinations all with 4 pilots and do takeoff and landings basically whenever I want. I have never had to beg a PIC for a sector nor have I ever cowered in the corner breathing smoke or had to fetch a tea for the master PIC.
Is the job perfect at CS obviously not but which contract job is these days.
They have come a long way in improving their dealings with foreign pilots since I've been employed here. The A330 is a great fleet the B787 is getting to the point of being acceptable, I'm hearing the B777 has some issues at the moment.
Having said what I have I would never recommend any pilot quit an existing job for any Chinese Airline. LWOP, furlough or unemployed sure give it a try you may just stay longer then you think once you settle in to a routine and have figured out how to get along with everything and everyone in the system over here.
Cheers
What is your beef against pilots joining CSA? You obviously are bitter and twisted for some reason. Could it be you have no escape from your present employer due to circumstances beyond your control?
I have been employed by CS on the B787 since the beginning it is the easiest money I have ever earned in my career. I fly with good guys to great destinations all with 4 pilots and do takeoff and landings basically whenever I want. I have never had to beg a PIC for a sector nor have I ever cowered in the corner breathing smoke or had to fetch a tea for the master PIC.
Is the job perfect at CS obviously not but which contract job is these days.
They have come a long way in improving their dealings with foreign pilots since I've been employed here. The A330 is a great fleet the B787 is getting to the point of being acceptable, I'm hearing the B777 has some issues at the moment.
Having said what I have I would never recommend any pilot quit an existing job for any Chinese Airline. LWOP, furlough or unemployed sure give it a try you may just stay longer then you think once you settle in to a routine and have figured out how to get along with everything and everyone in the system over here.
Cheers
Join Date: Aug 2006
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You are correct WJA it is not my nor your opinion that counts. I am simply pointing out what most professional Employers want as demonstrated by most reputable recruiting agencies regarding the logging of flight time. Employers (specifically airlines) only want to see PIC where you actually signed for the airplane. In scheduled ops, this means that CA logs PIC for the whole flight and no else logs any PIC. Again this is for employment purposes. If a company has 2 full crews and an inflight process dictated in their Ops. Specs. for inflight changes of PIC then that is an acceptable process.
Stampee I am sorry if I offended you or WJA that is not my intention. Advising others about potential pitfalls or unfavourable employment practices however, is my right to express my opinion on this forum. Mr. Gammon has laid it all out there for potential recruits. They can take it or leave it. Stampee I am quite content at my narrowbody job as I knew and understood how Chinese carriers have in the past and most likely will continue for at least several years regarding using ExPats as the PIC. The narrowbody pay also seems to be considerably higher now in China than most widebody jobs. This is because the bulk of the demand in China is for narrowbody pilots. I know Hainan has a new 787 contract that has pulled substantially ahead of CS. I know some of the A-330 guys at CS have a good gig going and if you are an Airbus guy from Australia that would be a good choice.
Stampee I am sorry if I offended you or WJA that is not my intention. Advising others about potential pitfalls or unfavourable employment practices however, is my right to express my opinion on this forum. Mr. Gammon has laid it all out there for potential recruits. They can take it or leave it. Stampee I am quite content at my narrowbody job as I knew and understood how Chinese carriers have in the past and most likely will continue for at least several years regarding using ExPats as the PIC. The narrowbody pay also seems to be considerably higher now in China than most widebody jobs. This is because the bulk of the demand in China is for narrowbody pilots. I know Hainan has a new 787 contract that has pulled substantially ahead of CS. I know some of the A-330 guys at CS have a good gig going and if you are an Airbus guy from Australia that would be a good choice.
Join Date: Oct 2014
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When the boys want a smoke, and if you are not interested, they are jolly decent about it and will ask you to excuse yourself to the cabin 
US$20000/ month average tax free over 4 years now, is OK, more that Air China, but probably more disorganised. Hainan, good luck with that!
Gammon, no luck with Norwegian yet?
US$20000/ month average tax free over 4 years now, is OK, more that Air China, but probably more disorganised. Hainan, good luck with that!
Gammon, no luck with Norwegian yet?
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Zeta Reticuli
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Stripes or money?
So basically they pay you all that serious money to be a glorified first officer? Is that somehow reflected in the number of stripes on your jacket? I'm not looking for a long debate either. I would just like to know what the deal is BEFORE i make any move.
low cost airline just so you can go home and write PIC in your logbook and tell people at parties your a hero? (This is why pilots terms are diminishing year after year 
)You are a Captain in CSA and I'm sure you can swap and do all the domestic flights you like as "Leader PIC". You can have mine!
Remember it's still a big transition to China and to long haul Skipper and it has its rewards both monetary and career progression. However you might not be comfortable signing for a B777 after just a few months line training. Be careful what you wish for！
Have you even passed the selection and CAAC check? First things first!
As for the rest of you CSA expats complaining or "stating facts" on here please remember we are guests in China so please thread carefully as we are already coming across as spoilt brats. It's not perfect but nowhere is. The terms could be better compared to other local airlines but hopefully they will continue to improve as they have done. Try and have some fun in CAN on your off days instead of wasting it on here in your hotel or bedsit apartment. It's got bars restaurants and millions of young ladies who actually might
you which is something you probably haven't got much of over your life time.The Euro base is a disaster but unfortunately we have one of our own to blame for selling the Euro base instead of the originally agreed AMS CDG FRA.
In summary let's do the job take the cash so we can all go home and do the wife or the girlfriend thing. Neggar!
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Narrow Body Super PIC
Wyoming! 
If your A320/737 NB job is so great why are you on here knocking our job?Jealousy maybe?
We are PICs on domestic and SH sectors (just like you right?) and eventually "Leader PIC" on international 4 crew flights.
Oh and I never heard of a reputable agency
China the final frontier where the aviation bell ends of the world unite.
If your A320/737 NB job is so great why are you on here knocking our job?Jealousy maybe?
We are PICs on domestic and SH sectors (just like you right?
) and eventually "Leader PIC" on international 4 crew flights.Oh and I never heard of a reputable agency
China the final frontier where the aviation bell ends of the world unite.
Last edited by CaptainJim; 2nd Nov 2015 at 08:18. Reason: Spelling
Join Date: Aug 2006
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SIC Jim have fun begging for a landing, cowering in the corner as the PIC bellows smoke like a chimney in your face. Would the PIC have to leave the cockpit or be asked to leave the cockpit so the other pilots can smoke? Do you enjoy asking the PIC what fuel load he wants or which sleep time you are assigned? Yes I thoroughly enjoy my PIC narrowbody job as I tell the FO a big NO he cannot smoke on me and obviously I do whatever flying I choose not whatever flying I am delegated. The narrowbody pay is outstripping the widebody pay anyways. No I am not knocking on CS's door I am just painting a picture for potential newhires as was the title of this thread "CS Wannabes" so potential recruits can understand there flight time is nothing more than SIC time outside of China
. China changes slowly and perhaps someday they will have ExPat Captains flying regularly as PICs but that is NOT the current status. If you want a closer assessment of the culture read MR. GAMMON's posts.
. China changes slowly and perhaps someday they will have ExPat Captains flying regularly as PICs but that is NOT the current status. If you want a closer assessment of the culture read MR. GAMMON's posts.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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PIC Wyoming
I could care less about who's in charge. Why are you posting on here? I explained how the system works but you still won't concede that when we do SH flights we are the PIC as there is only one captain and that's us. We do progress to leader PIC on LH but do I care that much? Eh no!
Will Xiamen not let you fly the 787 after your 6 years of PIC on the 737?
At least "SIC Jim" no doubt has a much better quality of life in this job with way more time at home
I feel sorry for you!
BTW remember who your parent company is! Don't bite the hand that feeds you especially since you've practically given away your identity on here. No more SIC BS!
Why are you posting on here? I explained how the system works but you still won't concede that when we do SH flights we are the PIC as there is only one captain and that's us. We do progress to leader PIC on LH but do I care that much? Eh no! Will Xiamen not let you fly the 787 after your 6 years of PIC on the 737?
At least "SIC Jim" no doubt has a much better quality of life in this job with way more time at home
I feel sorry for you!
BTW remember who your parent company is! Don't bite the hand that feeds you especially since you've practically given away your identity on here. No more SIC BS!
Last edited by CaptainJim; 2nd Nov 2015 at 12:15. Reason: Info
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Jim, thanks for feeling sorry for me, empathy is a very useful quality as a First Officer. I see you enjoy being home so maybe you should consider our narrowbody schedules of 30 days on and 30 days off or even 60 days on and 60 days off. Unfortunately, you will have to wait until next year when we will start hiring ExPat First Officers as you have no Current PIC. I will surely put in a good word for you and possibly if we fly together in the future I promise I won't smoke on you or make you beg for a landing.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Wyoming
CSA is a job that pays good money and ultimately leads to a wide body PIC Leader command. Don't like it? Join Xiamen with this dude, you can call all the shots, no hassle. We get 19gs a month with awesome crew and great routes. Middle East available to all you global commander types. Enjoy.
Im not hiding my identity here as CaptainJim but you should have done. Be careful testing the waters my friend. Don't push me with this SIC BS. I'm no rat but I'm no cruise captain either.
China the final frontier lol
Im not hiding my identity here as CaptainJim but you should have done. Be careful testing the waters my friend. Don't push me with this SIC BS. I'm no rat but I'm no cruise captain either.
China the final frontier lol
Last edited by CaptainJim; 3rd Nov 2015 at 05:33.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Ladies & Gents,
I am looking into joining CSA as a wannabe... Can anyone send me the ATPL package for the assessment.
One question regarding.. Will the ATPL exam suffice for the Chinese license or do we need to do a full course and exam after screening & during training?
Thank in advance !
I am looking into joining CSA as a wannabe... Can anyone send me the ATPL package for the assessment.
One question regarding.. Will the ATPL exam suffice for the Chinese license or do we need to do a full course and exam after screening & during training?
Thank in advance !
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The ATPL exam covers the written portion towards licensing issuance.
After the medical and the initial Company Sim eval - you do another Sim eval with the CAAC - that constitutes the flight portion of the Licensing.
Unlike Japan there is no long drawn out 6 month ATPL course, just transition or company training on type depending if your TR or NTR which in itself is a long process.
Cheers
After the medical and the initial Company Sim eval - you do another Sim eval with the CAAC - that constitutes the flight portion of the Licensing.
Unlike Japan there is no long drawn out 6 month ATPL course, just transition or company training on type depending if your TR or NTR which in itself is a long process.
Cheers
Join Date: Oct 2007
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The ATPL exam covers the written portion towards licensing issuance.
After the medical and the initial Company Sim eval - you do another Sim eval with the CAAC - that constitutes the flight portion of the Licensing.
Unlike Japan there is no long drawn out 6 month ATPL course, just transition or company training on type depending if your TR or NTR which in itself is a long process.
Cheers
After the medical and the initial Company Sim eval - you do another Sim eval with the CAAC - that constitutes the flight portion of the Licensing.
Unlike Japan there is no long drawn out 6 month ATPL course, just transition or company training on type depending if your TR or NTR which in itself is a long process.
Cheers
Cheers
Feedback from a few former colleagues there now or recently:
One, a Boeing wide body commander on arrival, is still not checked out after six months. He went un-current coz no one gave him a landing on training, not knowing he had to beg for a landing, so they put him in the sim for recurrent and deducted the cost from his salary- and he speaks Chinese!!! He says very unkind things about the operation.
Second guy has since left after 21 months and says he was only on full salary for 5 months.
Third guy just arrived and already regretting his move.
Fourth guy had been there a while, ran out of time in the sim as they squeezed every possible failure onto him. He failed because of no time remaining. Remedial action? F/O for 300 hours.
Is there a pattern here?
Unbiased reporting- I have no interest or agenda.
One, a Boeing wide body commander on arrival, is still not checked out after six months. He went un-current coz no one gave him a landing on training, not knowing he had to beg for a landing, so they put him in the sim for recurrent and deducted the cost from his salary- and he speaks Chinese!!! He says very unkind things about the operation.
Second guy has since left after 21 months and says he was only on full salary for 5 months.
Third guy just arrived and already regretting his move.
Fourth guy had been there a while, ran out of time in the sim as they squeezed every possible failure onto him. He failed because of no time remaining. Remedial action? F/O for 300 hours.
Is there a pattern here?
Unbiased reporting- I have no interest or agenda.
Join Date: May 2002
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Sounds like a right dogs dinner at CSA. I always wonder why the airlines go through such a lengthy selection process to then seemingly go all-out to fail people once they have them employed!? I guess it's a matter of archaic training systems and possibly a bad cultural approach to pilot training.