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Latest on Hainan Airlines

Old 28th Jan 2012, 08:49
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: hkg
Posts: 101
Waltair your view above has the naivety of something a 6 year old would say

Go eat your din dins and then mama will put you to bed

V
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Old 28th Jan 2012, 21:35
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: In a Chinese Rice Bowl
Posts: 20
Waltair,

It's not as easy as that. Plenty of guys have learned to try and speak the language, and embrace the culture yet get harassed by management as much as their peers that don't do anything. Companies like Korean Air, don't care about what you've done for them the past 12 years, they only care about now and have no concept of being understanding or fair because they don't think they have to. Captains at Korean Air can get written up by their F/Os, and have no way to defend themselves of any accusations. Don't get the name of who wrote them up or no fair response. You are guilty first, regardless if you had a flawless record for the past decade and no issues at all. I've seen this happen with many pilots there. That's just Korean Air. There are definitely airlines in China that are trying to handle the expat issue but you have to remember the country - communist. It's their way, which is fine, since it's their rules but when they don't abide by the contract, they wrote and signed for, then that's where the problems arise. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Fortunately, i haven't had to deal with this yet, but many contractual complaints are valid. The complaints i take issue with are the same negative ones that group ALL chinese airlines or ALL aircraft types (wide body and narrow). There are major differences company to company and plane type to plane type. Perhaps what you say rings true with some of the repeat negative posters on this forum. But it's really not that simple.
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 00:03
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wherever the wind takes me...
Posts: 90
Waltair your view above has the naivety of something a 6 year old would say

Go eat your din dins and then mama will put you to bed

V
Wow. That´s harsh for someone simply asking if anyone else has an open mind concerning other cultures, and perhaps getting something out of it.
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 01:31
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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urge!

Please do not forget to mention the 2 plus months you will spend working as an F/O until they deem you worthy to move back to the left seat.
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 14:28
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
"It's not as easy as that. Plenty of guys have learned to try and speak the language, and embrace the culture yet get harassed by management as much as their peers that don't do anything."

Hey Urge;
Since you have only been there a month or two, and are not even on line yet, how would you have such in-depth knowledge of a company that you don't yet work for? Sounds about as knowledgeable as your narrow-vs-widebody rants.

There are some serious drawbacks to working in China. Your treatment by your co-workers will not be one of them, unless you are a complete @#$%. If you try to learn Chinese, not only will that make the locals happy, they will do everything they can to help you.

I should take the above advice and learn more myself.
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 23:33
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 104E
Posts: 206
Talking Hainan 320 to 330 CCQ and China

Hello Gents,

Sorry, this is a little long but I am bored this morning drinking my coffee.

I read through the posts here and feel many facts have been presented about China by USMCProbe, DualAirBleedFault and others that have spent time in CHINA, not Asia but China. I have been flying here just about 4 years now and see the good and bad. I have read the posts here and talked to many friends that have had ups and downs in China. Some came from Spring Air (fired) , Shenzhen (not bad), JuneYao (fired), Sichuan (good but Sim bust to right seat and quit), Chengdu Airlines (good but 1 fired), Capital (good), China Southern (contract breech). China can be very good or a nightmare. If you are in China getting paid and things are working out, consider yourself very very lucky...! I am not the expert but I am living it and flying it have many friends still here, and some that left.

I am sure there are other flying in China that are happy somewhere getting paid not posting here on PPRuNe. Pilots that are unhappy tend to make it known that is why there are many negative threads. On the other hand in China being negative can be a reality. Maybe like the negative you hear from the Sand Box..ha. I would take a long and hard look at the negative posts that I feel are 90% dead on...!

I had some people I know that went to Hainan years ago were pissed off about reimbursements were not be paid back. I heard, but dont know about the A320 to A330 CCQ but think it may be a challenge. I finished a 3 year A320 contact, CCQ'd to A330. Believe me, you have many chances to make mistakes, if your airline doesnt like you, you are gone...!

I never had to fly the right seat for CCQ, but training does take forever here, the Chinese way. From CCQSim in Beijing to flying as captain maybe 4 to 6 months. You will have many people, leader types, instructors riding along with you each flight until completion. When you make it, it is your lucky day..!


What I am getting at is from what I have heard, Hainan is better than Korean Air but not as friendly as Sichuan. I heard the Korean A330 maybe good, not like the 777 class that 6 or 7 highly skilled Captain never made it to the line..! I will have that report in another month.

As long as you feel confident your airline will not chew you up and spit you out, then go for it..! But, keep in mind like all of the experienced pilots are talking about on these posts, its China and not as easy sometimes as a western mind can comprehend. With children pissing on the streets, breathing the air, cant eat out at the food joints in fear of poisoning, internet blocked, phones blocked, language barrier( crowded cockpits, translators, extra pilots)the list goes on and on. It does have a tendency to wear your ass out after awhile, China will make you tired....! My wife is Chinese, I have 2 cars a apartment (own it) I am living the local life in China, even speak fair Chinese still makes me tired...hehe.


I am looking later to live and work in another country. I want to be based where I work and not commuting, forget that idea..! I want to fly the flight to my base and fly my flight back, NO Dead Heading. The 6/2 or similar type scked will kill you trying to commute to the west from China.

So Urge, I will be checking from time to time and look forward to your real time reports here in PPRuNe on Hainan because I am looking and either Germany or Australia or maybe even the USA when I finish my current contract.

I wish you luck..!


On Final
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 12:49
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
Just what On Final says. And he has been here longer than me.

I would just add one thing, and that is you won't ever be treated better on a daily basis by coworkers, anywhere.

BUT, consider yourself lucky if it works out for you. There are an infinite number of reasons that it won't. Most of them are out of your control.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 04:07
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
Great post, on final

Urge, be a man and post what really happens to you over the next 12 months in China, it will make some very interesting reading me thinks.
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Old 3rd Feb 2012, 00:14
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Find me a sewer.
Posts: 35
At the risk of having yet another of my posts deleted from this forum, I offer a thumbs up on the post by urge. Flying in Asia is one thing, with its challenges. China is a whole different ballgame - a world unto itself.

Have fun, learn the language, and do your best to avoid the pitfalls that are as much at Hainan as anywhere else in China. The common thread is high pay with working and living conditions that require an acrobat's flexibility to tolerate.
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Old 3rd Feb 2012, 23:05
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: In a Chinese Rice Bowl
Posts: 20
By USMCProbe:
Hey Urge;
Since you have only been there a month or two, and are not even on line yet, how would you have such in-depth knowledge of a company that you don't yet work for? Sounds about as knowledgeable as your narrow-vs-widebody rants.

Quite ironic that USMCProbe is questioning my in-depth knowledge of Hainan Airlines because I've only been there for a month or two, but USMCProbe has NEVER worked at Hainan Airlines!!! He thinks he is an expert because he has worked at another Hainan Group airline, and thinks all of the 10 companies are run exactly the same. (How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like that???!!!). I get my knowledge from guys that are working there right now that have supplied me tons of help for training, on their flight schedules, on dealing with the company, and pay and many other issues. I've talked to each foreign community that is represented there (australians, austrians, belgians, spanish, taiwanese, korean, etc.). I know information about THIS company and could care less about talking on any of the other 9 airline companies or 20 other non-aviation companies that the Hainan Group owns. That's the difference here: USMCProbe and others that have never flown at this company, only harp about their experience working for another company and try to apply for all Chinese airlines. Heck, why don't you apply it to all Asian airlines, if you are going to generalize. Why don't you apply the asian way to just all asians, living in asia or not, while you are at it.

And USMCProbe attacks me on my rebuttals about widebody vs narrowbody differences. Let's see, this post was about widebody, and his posting is about narrowbody and how miserable that is flying that, but wants to apply that to widebody flying where the pilots spend more than 1/2 their flying time outside of China. In fact many of them spend over 75% of their time outside of China. How do i know? Well, i was given the FEB roster for every CAP that works at Hainan Air that flies the A330, A340, and B767. But what do I know, i only work there and have flown Widebodies for considerable amount of time for another asian carrier and for a non-asian carrier. In fact my last asian carrier, i only did one domestic flight on average, every 6 months and was staying at top resorts/hotels on 5 different continents. Not sure how all the postings by USMCProbe and his other bitter cohorts on the A320 apply when you aren't staying at smaller cities in China, and dealing with all of their complaints about food, pollution, and scheduling.

PooPoo me all you want, but my postings relate to what's being specifically asked about and i don't go around generalizing saying what happens at my company is or will happen at yours! I'm not drinking any Kool Aid here. I know some guys personallly that have gotten a bad deal at some Chinese airlines and it was the company's fault, not theirs. I know plenty of other stories of other guys from their friends. But those issues pertained usually to narrowbody (A320 and B737 flying) and domestic flying. There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between narrow and wide and i'm flown both to know. So to appease USMCProbe's attack on my indepth knowledge, can he say he has the required knowledge base like me? I've flown both Boeing and Airbus in both narrow and widebodies, as well as other aircraft. I've flown commercially, privately, and military. F-4s, F-18s, and so on, and i've flown on 5 continents. Sorry if Antarctica and Africa didn't make my list of prerequisites to be "knowledgable".

It's getting really ridiculous hearing from the USMCProbe, Hong Kong Fooey ("be a man and really report what happens"), DualAirBleedFault (a USMCProbe cult follower like the JoePa followers that think he did no wrong), and the other A320 waste-of-space negative posters on everything China. Pilots are known to whine, but usually it's on stuff that really does pertain to all or we make it clear that it's relevant for a specific group. These half-empty guys want to rain on everyone's parade to make themselves feel better. Well my umbrella is open!

Last edited by urge; 3rd Feb 2012 at 23:09. Reason: Added info
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 00:44
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
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"But what do I know, i only work there and have flown Widebodies for considerable amount of time for another asian carrier and for a non-asian carrier. In fact my last asian carrier, i only did one domestic flight on average, every 6 months and was staying at top resorts/hotels on 5 different continents." Urge.

Interesting post again Urge. Since you have already flown widebody, including in Asia, how is it you are doing a 330 CCQ? It is for 320 Capts. Since you are talking about Hainan, why not discuss your last Asian carrier that you "flew widebodies".

Me thinks you are a 16 year old wannabe fanboy sitting in front of his computer. Go to sleep now, you have to go to school tomorrow.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 02:29
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
I Just clicked on URGE's other posts. He is also on some Korean Air posts, and claims to have worked there and know everything. Interestingly he is also on some turboprop pilot posts. Why would a god-like widebody Captain be posting on a turbo-prop forum?

If you flew 330's for KAL URGE, again, why are you doing a 320-330 CCQ for Hainan? KAL flies 330's, but not 320's, and you wouldn't have to go through the CCQ process.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 03:32
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Here and there
Posts: 71
Smile

I had exactly the same feelings...
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 04:43
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by flyinaggie
Has anyone on here done the FAA to Transport Canada license conversion test for an ATP? How did it go?

Also, do you have any books or manuals that you would recommend to study with?


As I understand it, SIC type ratings do not exist with TC, so if I have a few of those and convert the license, will they convert as full PIC type ratings?


All of your SIC ratings will transfer and will show up on your TC license as the aircraft type rating but it doesn't distinguish it from a PIC or SIC. Use that to your advantage!

Additionally, when converting, you have to get your TC medical done first. Your medical license number is your pilot number. if you are in the US, do a search of FAA examiners to see if any are TC medical qualified as well. I did that in my city and found my FAA doc could check off both.

AFter you get the medical done, you then have to take the Canadian ATP test. Take a test prep (highly recommend). They have online study programs that cost about $75-100. You then have to take the exam at a TC test site, which are only in Canada. Once you past the test, you can take the certificate to any TC office and take your FAA licenses, your logbooks to confirm you have hours on each aircraft. The only issue that sometimes comes up with a TC office, which you need to print out ahead of time, so they understand is that the get confused about your ATP license. Many countries, including Canada want to see the ATP license and Instrument Rating (current) on our license. Of course, the FAA ATP includes the Instrument Rating and some TC staff don't understand. I had to have them pull out their manuals to show them, and even though had to argue. To make your life easier, bring the FAA verbiage on what an ATP license entails.

Hope that helps



The above is cut and pasted from one of URGE's posts on Airlinepilotforums. On that forum, he claims to be an A330 Capt at KAL and also has intimate knowledge of AirAsia hiring, getting furloughed from JAL, in addition to some UPS and Fedex posts.

The most interesting was the above. It was about converting an FAA license to a Transport Canada license. In the first line of his response, he appears to know that Transport Canada does not distinguish between FAA logged SIC time, and PIC time, and he states: "Use that to your advantage."

Faker pilot? Falsified PIC? I believe the date of the post was 11-6-2011, just 3 months ago.

I am still betting on a kid, who is doing his background work to someday be a widebody pilot.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 05:09
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmacdaddy

________________________________________________


The ROC-A is only needed if you are going to work in Canada. Many guys are getting their types in Canada (much cheaper and quicker than the US) and working elsewhere in the world. That's why the ROC A is not mandatory. The original poster did not say if he was going to work in Canada. I'm not working in Canada after I received my TC type ratings; I'm in Asia.


________________________________________________________

The above is another post by URGE about converting to a Canadian license. Sounds like he might be a fake pilot. From his posts he definitely doesn't sound like he has any real experience. He laundered his background by converting from an FAA to a TC license, then tried to get a job in Asia. Or did.

Hey URGE, if you are an American I have some bad news for you. The CAAC Airport ID includes a background check. They personally call 1 guy in Oklahoma City(I know him), and verbally verify our backgrounds. If yours doesn't check out, you will be sent home.
Maybe Korean will take you back?
y
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 05:14
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: In a Chinese Rice Bowl
Posts: 20
USMCProbe,

I"m NOT doing the CCQ program. I did that for Korean. (USMCProbe says "KAL doesn't have CCQ). And once again how misinformed you are about KAL because they are one of the first companies if not the first that did the A320 CCQ to A330 program. They started that back in 2007. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!! Where did i ever say i was doing a CCQ for Hainan Airlines?. I had given an update about the CCQ status at Hainan Airlines because YOU said it wasn't approved and good luck to anyone going into Hainan Airlines and hoping they have an airline to work at since CAAC wasn't going to allow it or drag their heels on it. I posted an update in JAN debunking that because the first 5 guys all got approved and passed their CCQ CAAC check rides starting in JAN. I was on the lot before that. So that should settle that issue.

And once again an attack on my flying resume?! Are you kidding me? I already had an extensive flying background from military to commercial to include fast jets (F-4 and F-18) to yes, even turboprops in my past from 22 years ago when i did some test pilot stuff. I flew P-3, E-2, and military King Air so keep jabbing. And those are certified turboprops. Even have a sweringer type.

As for the TC license, that you also tried to make a stab at, it was in reference to someone's else's question which i'm not going into detail to explain; people can read the thread cause too long. Plus I can give advice/input for other topics just like anyone else, so where are you to question me on providing remarks about UPS, FEDEX, or ANA? When i make comments there, I'm providing info that's useful, supported to help out. We all have friends at other airlines or management friends that we relay their true stories to provide some help. Your comments on Chinese Airlines have been mostly derogative and usually do not help the original poster. Your responses are off topic. I try to address a poster's concern directly and it's just two cents worth of info but it's relevant. THAT IS SOMETHING YOU COULD TAKE A NOTE ON!

Once again, amazing when you get questioned on your weak and unsupported statements and proven how wrong you are, that you can't throw in the towel. IT's really pitiful.

REmember, for the new people joining this thread, this all started originally because people like USMCProbe are doing the exact opposite of what these forums are intended for. Everyone has heard the saying how PPRuNe is nothing but negative stuff all the time and it's the same posters. Well, USMCProbe is one of these people and i'm calling him out like some of the other posters. They go around hijacking posts that are not directly related. Is there some relationship to his posts? Well of course, if you think that the conditions from his airline actually should be applied to every Chinese airline! Those are his comments. He applies his A320 (narrow body) experience and says that's how it's going to be on on the wide body fleet. For all of you new readers to the post, have you read the very first post to this thread? Here it is:

[I][SIZE="5"]Thinking of joining them for their A330/340 fleet.

They offer bases for commuting pilots in a few European and US cities (roster to end and start there... they will try for it to happen they say).

Any latest info on their scheduling policy(is it just a promise...), the atmosphere and attitude towards expats there (if it has improved at all) and any other insiders info will be greatly appreciated. I hear they are pretty desperate.

Its kind of a giant leap to go there from Europe, but the money (they promise) looks good, the fleet routes are good and the situation in Europe (or US) sucks, so I am either there or considering the UAE.


The poster wants to know about A330, not A320. Schedules for wide body, not domestic narrow body. Commuting Bases for the A330. And how Hainan Airlines is treating their pilots, not another one of the 9 airlines under the Hainan Group, but specifically for Hainan Airlines. Do i have to explain that any more?! USMCProbe is way out of line speaking as fact, which might be for his airline, plane, and experience but it has no relevance to what this original poster wanted. He does that, along with the other negative posters, on most of his postings. Now you can listen to what i've said and understand that i'm trying to help the PPRuNe forum, or you can just lump me in with him. Can't see how when i'm trying to clear up the misconceptions, non relevant materials, and overall negativity. Look, China is not some "end of the rainbow" place. I know that and i'm hoping my experience is 100% positive, but i know there is a risk to coming to this country and airline but it was well-researched not just by forums, but personal contact within the company with multiple people with varying years in the company, on type, and overall contract experience. To be fair, i'm not saying that what USMCProbe and other negative posters are wrong. In fact, i listen very carefully to what they say and do take notes because they aren't posting lies. I believe in them, but you have to apply it to your airline. If you are thinking of going to their airlines or flying their fleet, then you should listen carefully to what he and the others say. In fact, their postings helped me shy away from going back to the A320 because i know about the domestic issues with pollution, poor hotels, bad scheduling.... (they speak the truth). This isn't a "he said, she said" thing. This is about posting in the correct places, relevant material. This case is closed for me. (Except that i will update my personal experience for those thinking of coming here with relevant facts while i'm here).

Last edited by urge; 4th Feb 2012 at 05:43. Reason: Added Info
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 05:46
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
A test pilot as well? Wow. Anything else?
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 05:54
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: In a Chinese Rice Bowl
Posts: 20
From JimmyG,
urge!

Please do not forget to mention the 2 plus months you will spend working as an F/O until they deem you worthy to move back to the left seat.


What JimmyG wrote is somewhat correct. It's not in your contract but it's known that it's possible that you might have to do that. Some pilots have been through the training program and have had to the F/O for a max of two months, to learn the Chinese ATC because of the domestic flying. More experienced guys get to bypass it. Remember, They got CAP pay, while sitting in the right seat. I didn't hear a true gripe from those that actually did that because they just accepted it as training. More info to come.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 07:43
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 56
Posts: 321
Well URGE, if you are everything you say you are, on this and the APC forum, here goes. You are a:

Discharged (your words) US Navy Test Pilot.

Twice furloughed US legacy airline pilot, from the same airline I am from. Fancy that. Since you were twice furloughed (sorry if it is true), that would make you an FO at my airline.

You took your credentials, went across the border and got a Transport Canada license where you used your knowledge of the conversion to convert your airline FO time to PIC time.

Went to KAL as a 320 CCQ to 330 Captain. But didn't get 500 hours. Did they "out" you?

Came to Hainan for a 330 job, but haven't flown yet.

Might be plausible, but my guess is just a kid. But if you are not a kid that makes you a fake.
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Old 4th Feb 2012, 09:00
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: upthere
Posts: 35
Sounds like someone plays Sherlock Holmes here....
NoodleAir is offline  

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