Latest on Hainan Airlines

[USMCProbe]

The reason I ultimately won't apply for this is that I believe that no matter what they tell me, I will end up deadheading back and forth to Seattle, to fly the domestic Chinese flights that the Chinese don't want to fly. I will only spend 12 days at home on my vacation.

If I thought I would only fly back and forth to PEK once a week from SEA, I would apply.

This "Scheme" has been tried before, recently. Air China did it with foreign pilots, to help them recruit them. They started out being based overseas. In less than a year several of the overseas bases were closed, and the pilots ended up flying rubber dog$%#t in and out of PEK, domestically.


I am betting the HN deal will be the same, for the same reasons.

[A-3TWENTY]

[QUOTE]Uhmm...how many have completed and passed the 320 to 330 advertised program? Try and ask the recruiting agencies. My investigations tell me the number is zero. Although a few have gone from the left seat of the 320 to the right of 330. Nice[QUOTE]

If you don`t believe , ask the agencies.Not a single A320 pilot joined the A330 fleet.All have failed the interview , which lasts 3 minutes but is enough to send you back home.

If you intend to join the 330 fleet , start asking the agencies how many A 320 expats joined the A330 fleet.


To someone who told about SEA.
You will fly to SEA 2 times out of a year(maximum!!!). It`s the most prefered destination of chinese pilots because they get more money when they fly USA and because they love to go there for shopping.

So in practical words...forget flying to SEA.

And yes , the A330 fleet has a lot of domestic flights. And people is afraid that more will be added in the near future as the 787(first coming in April) starts flying the A330 LR routes.

A320

[worldrover]

Thanks for your posts guys!

Regarding the interview fail rate, I do not even know how many have already applied (its a new post guys), but supposedly the interview is early in the process (before you fly back and get your self funded CCQ) so if they need pilots they will eventually interview someone and accept him.

I believe that you are referring to their add about "experienced A330/340 F/Os" to upgrade to CMD (directly, no RHS period)(!!!) , yes they posted one of these too!!
Maybe they failed their "CMD" interview, but it makes more sense.
In any case all these bits and pieces of info make me think that they really need the A330/340 Cpts and they will have to change a few things to get us.

I am sure SEA is the "prize" destination for the locals, but to be honest I could't care less. I am looking at their EU bases, and I do not think they will be able to serve all their Intl destinations with the 787.
Plus I am sure they are planning to expand their network.

Thanks again. Who knows, we might end up flying together there soon.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Thanks for the info. Definitely not quitting the day job unless I had everything locked down.

[urge]

Let's straighten out some facts, shall we?!!

First of all, let's quit guessing at what's going on at Hainan Airiines. USMCProbe is just spouting out stuff he doesn't know because he doesn't even work there (don't lump ALL chinese companies together). Maybe there was stuff going on there a couple years back, but lets see if it still exists, okay?

As for SEA, they only have one expat that is on the line based out of there, but they need two and prefer 3/4. I will be number two. I'm going thru training right now and will tell you how it goes. If you are based out of SEA, you will not DH, like USMCProbe keeps incorrectly saying. You fly out from SEA to PEK, Then fly your turns in out of PEK for your period of time, then you fly your last leg from PEK - SEA. Depending upon your contract, then you'll be at home for 10 days if you are doing the monthly thing or you'll be there for two weeks, if doing the 6/2 week rotation. Why anyone would do the second one, puzzles me, unless your recruiter didn't have that option. I did a commuting contract before to the US from Asia, and I NEVER Deadheaded either way. I flew it each way and i was home every month. I think USMCProble is confusing a contract that Air china has for Vancouver based guys where all they do is fly Vancouver -PEK once a week (pilot fly 3/4 round trips and that's it and i know someone that has been doing it for 3 years). Hainan does not do it that way.

Here's the scoop with wanting expats for the SEA - PEK route. The chinese locals have to have two days off after doing an international long haul. The expats don't. So once you land in PEK, the next day you can go out on a flight. The locals are given two days off from that flight. Hence the reason they want expats, so they can be utilized more.

As for pay the A330/340 guys will get 15.5K/mo. it's the 12.5K base plus 3K bonus. You can lose the bonus if you get a flight violation or incident. No one has lost their bonus yet, so don't fret that.

There have been several guys hired with A320 only backgrounds going into A330 program (referring to CAP only). They need pilots and those A320 guys will be A330 CAPs.

The chinese airlines are very laid back when compared to Korean Air, which is such a tense management group and anal retentive group of Korean pilots. Not the expats. Some of the Hainan pilots came over from the middle east, and are very happy they did. Once again, this is a Hainan thread.

The A330 will increase international destinations down the road. Looking at LA and some other places. My last company expanded their routes and i got to fly to a lot more US cities and had many layovers there even though the locals wanted the flights for more per diem. I was home at least 18 -20 days a month. Not normal, but i was lucky.

The chinese schedulers from what i'm hearing from guys that have been here for 3 years, are very accommodating. They will give you the days off you need and the trips you request. Now it wasn't that way a couple of years ago, and the beginning expats for Hainan Airlines had to 'teach' them the foreign way of honoring days off. They are inline with the process pretty regularly now. Things are going smoothly. As for domestic flying, it does exist but it's minimal.

As always have an ace in the hole. You can leave your contract anytime after 6 months after completion of training with no penalty, so if you don' t like it, have another job to interview and lined up for. Their pay with commuting contract is tops. management doesn't bother you. Just do your job with a smile and that's it.

Hope that helps.

[airdualbleedfault]

Oh man Urge, that post was hilarious
Sounds exactly like a newbie ( to china ) expat with stars in his eyes rant. Its amazing how much more you know over USMC, considering you just started Trg.
Please have the humility to come back to Pprune in 12 months and lets us know what REALLY happens .
Good luck
PS yes, I have had the displeasure of working for those lying A holes

[urge]

update

A-3Twenty. Not true. In SEP, two guys with A320 only time passed their interviewed and offered a job. They are getting their CCQs done now. I also was offered a job with minimal A330 PIC time (less than the required 500, which is not really a requirement if you have previous A320 time). They need A330 guys period and all A320 guys will do fine in the interview. Standard sim check.

[urge]

you bet

AirDualBleedFault. I hear you. First of all, i might be new to this asian airline but I have flown much longer than that in Asia, so no 'newbie' here. I will keep everyone posted. I have friends that have been flying for Hainan for the past 3 years that i all renewed their contracts and love their job. I will say, this sounds like the exception with all the other chinese airlines. But AirDualBleed, at least i have facts and know people in the company NOW that are happy, do you? I'm flying for them now, are you? PPrune is notorious for just negative crap all the time. I don't mind reading it, so you can take down the notes to keep an eye out for. If it starts to smell bad, then you know ahead of time what to smell for, and you can get out. I did my sniff test and Hainan Airlines was the ONLY chinese airline i was willing to go to, period.

What i'm trying to debunk, is that not everyone gets screwed over. It has definitely happened in the past and will do so in the future, but i look at the previous years and the 'now' and see what has changed. it's a pilot market in China, so change has been occurring. When things slow down in 10 years, you better be gone and made all your money.

[worldrover]

Very informative post urge!
Thanks for the first reply for someone that is actually there.

Can you tell me how long it took from application to interview to training? You already had A330 experience so you did not do the CCQ, but do you know how it was for the other guys to pass the A330 CAAC test after returning?
How long is LT?

Any idea how many they will need? They keep posting different requirements under different agents, from experienced F/O's to upgrade immediately, to 7000 TT with 1000+ CPT A320, so this latest one (a week ago) for the CCQ, will it keep going until Feb-Mar? Can't come earlier

Thanks again

[urge]

Worldrover. Getting an interview can be super quick. It's just making the cutoff point for the next month's interview which i think is around the 15 - 20th of a month to get seen the next month. Maybe some recruiters can squeeze people in later than that. Anyhow, that's what happened to me. I requested info from a recruiter, they sent me an application to fill out (took about 20 minutes max) and they replied in less than a week to schedule an interview.
Plan on 7-9 days for the interview (Medical, sim, ATPL test). You find out usually right after sim is done if you pass or maybe the next day for some. ATP you find out when you hit 'complete" on the computer. Medical takes 2-3 weeks. BUT 30-50% of the guys will have something wrong. It's the chinese way. Sometimes you can retake something at your home, but then if it has to be translated to chinese, then forget it. So some guys come back multiple times to retake a section of the medical. They give you lots of opportunities to pass unless it's something severe. Once you pass the medical and offered a job, you can start whenever you want. I mean WHENEVER you want. There is no such thing as a class date. You show up, and the class is built around you. They say plan on 6 weeks of ground school, but there is only two weeks of it, if that much. The rest of the time you are waiting to get your pilot conversions done by China and the visa. If it gets done earlier, then you go home then and sit at home, getting paid, until you do your sims which can take 1 - 3 months to sked. If you are looking for a set syllabus, or structured training, you are not going to get that. this company just plans as it goes along. I don't have a problem with that, as long as i'm getting paid. Line training, is up in the air for how long that lasts. Plan on two months, give or take a month. But who knows when that'll start too. Could take months after you finish your sims. As for the CCQ program, it changes weekly on how they do the CAAC check. Looks like they are trying to combine it with the other 3 sims we do. 2 SOP sims with a sOp check then CAAC check. That's all i know for now.

[USMCProbe]

Urge;
Actually, I am here, and you are not. I work for the Hainan Group. That includes Hainan Airlines, BCA, Tianjin, West Air, Lucky Air, Grand China Express, Hong Kong Express, and a couple of others. Other than Hainan, we all exist as "operational subsets" of Hainan Airlines. Pilots, FA's, aircraft, and not much else. If I fly in PEK, CAN, or Haikhou, we use all Hainan assets. If you come to Sanya, you will use ours. We can jumpseat on any Hainan carrier, unlimited. I have, and have talked to several expat pilots, on every fleet. I do this 2-4 times a month. A couple I know fairly well. I don't take offense to what you said, as you don't know. But, you don't know.

Wasinc just pulled their ad for 330 CCQ. Probably for reasons I stated before: It wasn't approved by anybody. Chinese airlines, like other countries, cannot just do what they want, it has to be approved by the aviation authority. Advertising a job does not require that approval.

Don't have the 500 hours? I hope it works out for you, but that 500 hour minimum was probably negotiated with the CAAC. If you don't have it, your license, or airport ID, may not be approved. Hopefully for your sake it will be. If it isn't, there is nothing you can do about it.

But, you were offered a job? That might just be a 23 year old office boy making that decision, and hoping the local CAAC buys off on it. You will find out if you are issued your license and airport ID, or not.

I am here, and I do know what I am talking about. Less than half of those at your stage of the game make it through the line check, for various reasons. And yes, all were "offered" a job. Just like you.

Other tidbits.

You will not teach any chinese scheduler anything western. You will submit, or you won't last long. This is a "punishment" culture. If you cause the scheduler any undue pain, they will return it in kind, but 10X more.

This is their country, and their airline. We are just part timers, to fill in the gaps until they can staff their own cockpits. THEY get to choose what they fly, and when. And they may change their mind, at any time. And they do.

Sorry, but you do seem a bit "starry-eyed". I wish you luck and hope it works out for you.

[worldrover]

URGE, which agency you recommend for Hainan then? No reason to try blindfolded, your experience sounds quite streamlined.

Do keep the info coming if you can, I mean USMCP does sound realistic, and he does offer some objective pieces of info, so I hope everything IS so different in the mother company's A330 fleet contracts than all the rest of the group.

As for the sim, I just hope that by being Airbus they do not try doing the usual "cowboy stuff" they do to the Boeing guys (like one member said, 80's style, multiple failures and fires and...missile hits....ridiculous and childish).

Thanks again. Good luck!

[USMCProbe]

Worldover;
If your a 330 guy I can't offer a recommendation, as I am not one from AC, HN, or China S. If you are a 320 skipper, I can.

Currently the 320 jobs pay more. BCA, Tianjin (more time off), Spring ( more money), June Yao (more money but get treated like ****). Sichuan. Real airline but a bit less money. 1st class operation.

BCA, Tianjin, and Spring, with Sichuan as an alternate, treat their expats well. At least for now.

If you want time off, Tianjin is 6/3. If you want money, Spring is 20k+. If you want good treatment, BCA is good. That is where I work.

My info.

[the grove]

<<<so I hope everything IS so different in the mother company's A330 fleet........>>>

<<<As for the sim, I just hope that........>>>


Worldrover,

You're welcome to hope for whatever you like, dreams are free.

But I'd recommend listening to USMCProbe instead. The lad speaks the truth.

Best of luck,

Grove

[airdualbleedfault]

Urge, I sincerely hope it works out for you, BUT China is not like the rest of Asia, they may look similar but that's about it.
Anyway, hope you are one of the handful of guys that seem to do OK there.

[USMCProbe]

The Grove;
I wish I had some specifics on HN 330 fleet, but I don't have anything current. If it is a "fit" for what you are looking for, hopefully it works out.

Me and a few others at BCA have looked into the CCQ and talked about it. I am up for contract renewal in 6 months. Based on what I know, and more importantly, what I don't, I will stay where I am.

If you are a 330 guy, you might want to try China Southern instead. 18k a month, and a good airline. I have flown on them a few times, and have flown with their "ex" crew here a few times. I don't know how they treat their expats. I do know that their pilot and fA's speak better english than most of the smaller airlines. That will at least make work easier. The money is good, and Guangzhou is a decent place for expats to live. Me personally, I actually like the Cantonese over all other Chinese, by far.

I wish I had more information. Part of getting by here is being comfortable with not knowing F@#$ck all. I have been here 18 months, and I fully expect to know less in a couple of years, if they haven't Sh$#@tcanned me by then.

One good thing about wide-body flying in China, is I believe all of the airlines pay full credit for the amount of hours you are in the aircraft. Unlike what ICAO allows, and many foreign airlines utilized, they don't discount the time you are "on break". At least Hainan is like this. I believe they all are, but if anyone knows different, please chime in.

KAL, and Emirates are the two biggies that I know that use this ICAO rule. You can fly 130 hours a month, but only get "credit" for 80-90. Not good, especially when you are traveling through many time zones.

Good luck to all who come here.

[fatbus]

Small correction on EK, you get paid for every hour of credit seat or bunk, only seat time counts towards to yearly max of 900 hrs.At present 777 pilots rostered to @ 95 credit (pay)/month but very few are getting close to the 900 hard / year.

[worldrover]

the grove: I am pretty sure that USMCP gives some reliable info, that doesn't mean that there is no other side to it though.

Yes, I am optimistic, and I also think that there is a huge difference between an A320/B737 expat contract and an A330 one (or other long haul). That is the way is has always been. Even in a western airline, the conditions between 2 similar fleets are considerably different.

I just don't understand why "urge" and his experience in China is of less importance to you than someone's that is not satisfied?
Where do you fly anyway? Do you have any hard facts on your experience to share with us? That is all we need, and everybody can judge for himself and take his calculated risks.

[Dream Land]

Urge

USMCProbe is a big boy that had the opportunity to fly aircraft and missions that posers like you will never have the opportunity to fly or understand, he is also on a LOA from one of the most respected airlines in the industry, so if you don't like his posts, don't read them, but please don't compare yourself to him, keep your pie hole shut.

[youwantmetodowhat]

Ditto to what Dreamland says