DGCA Expat Phase-Out

[Willie Everlearn]

itsbrokenagain

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I’m happy for you. If you’re proud of what you do, that’s fine. Obviously, your pilot job is not my pilot job, which is why you’re doing that pilot job and I’m doing this pilot job. Someone’s got to do it. [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I wouldn’t apply for let alone accept a job where I’m a jack-of-all-trades and expected to take out the rubbish and make sure the bog is cleaned. Being a god or thinking of oneself as a god, has nothing to do with it. That’s your reference, not mine. [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']FBOs have crew for that and I should think a corporate operator can well afford ground service during turnarounds? If you one day find yourself in a corner with a low time, low experience F/O, good luck. I hope you find it comforting, for it will certainly be challenging. But that’s why you love flying, isn’t it? For the challenge.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I appreciate what you do. This is how you are gaining your experience and no one can take that away from you. Good luck moving forward.[/font]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As for your remaining comments, I’m not sure if there is something lost in translation or if it’s simply an attempt at pretending to be an experienced pilot.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']What is your definition of experience by the way? My definition is certainly not based on total hours, just to give you a hint.[/font]

[Willie Everlearn]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Jimmygill[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']To answer your examples:[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Q If tomorrow you have an offer from Air Canada to fly their Brand New A320 as a F/O with several scores of passengers behind you. Are you going to say, "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']A. [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As a newly licenced CPL, I’d jump at it. That’s because I’d be too ignorant back then to completely understand or appreciate what the job entails and the knowledge base I’d need to take into the job. Based on what I’ve had for a flying career thus far, I’d recommend NOT taking the job because I know what is needed for the position and its responsibilities.[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Q [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Suppose you selected the later choice, and after 4 years you have around 2500 hrs on A320 as F/O and you also have been working hard and got your ATPL. If the airline now comes with an offer of upgrading you to your left seat, with a 50-80% increase in take-home salary and reduced flight load. Will you say "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job and may be I will be ready after I log 2-3000 more hours as F/O?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?" [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']A [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Actually, depending on numbers, if this is the scenario and I have the experience in the RHS as you suggest, then there is likely no reason not to take the upgrade. This is commonplace across the industry. So, I’m not sure what you’re asking here.[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']This isn’t about hours, it’s about experience. Line experience. The corporate pilot does not have the same line experience as an airline pilot. I am not, just so you understand my point, saying one is ‘better’ than the other for both jobs differ greatly from one another. I’ve taught corporate F/Os with more than 4000 hours who didn’t know what IAS/Mach crossover was. So, you tell me.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']It's not about flying the aeroplane for most CPLs can fly the aeroplane. Experience isn't hours, it's what you were exposed to during those hours. It's also about the aircraft type you flew while living those experiences. But I'm assuming most intellectual pilots get it. Judging by the comments, defensive comments I might add, most throughout this thread DON'T get it.[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Willie Everlearn [/FONT]

[Dragon 83]

This topic is about phase out of expats, it's happening but being driven by politics and not sensible policies.

If the airlines need the experience of foreign pilots, they have and should present their requirements to the DGCA. National pilots should be upgraded when experienced, trained and ready. The government should support the airlines and not restrict or impose unrealistic terms for reduction of expats based on emotions, lobby groups etc.

I am flying 15 yrs as an expat for various companies, last 4 in India. I have flown with mostly competent Indian Capt's & F/O's, they are technically sharp and keen to fly. They are however caught in the frenzy of expansion and motivated to move quickly to the left seat and widebody. They are mostly not interested in Command on a turboprop and are often status driven.

I think they need to slow down and fly for experience and development. Most of them are young but in a rush to progress. They are frequently lacking in overall aviation knowledge much of which comes with time and practical knowledge not just technical expertise.

They grew up into a different environment. They need to put professionalism first, follow Sop's, learn to follow rules, be patient, open to discussion and constructive criticism.

[rdr]

I must add my opinion to the excellent posts by Top Tup & Dragon. Indian aviation is at an extremely critical crossroad, fuelled by rapid expansion and unchartered waters.
The environment the local pilots have been placed in, is most unfortunate for the country, industry, and mostly, themselves. This is why there will be endless debate on just about every issue, from expats, competence, promotion, and so on.

It will be very hard to evolve a proper mechanism when the entire lot, from the DGCA, Air India, MOCA, Aviation Minister, press, politicians, babus, are lacking basic knowledge in every aspect of the industry.
To give you an example, a major carrier is, as we speak, terminating the services of some senior expat TRE's due to the 4 year rule, while hiring the same number from the gulf countries. When approached, the DGCA has given the silly reason that it is neccessary as pilots become a security risk to India after 4 years of flying.
How do Airline owners, CEO's, employees and others make any informed decision to their commitments ? At every stage there is the chance of illogical situations arising, due to the chosen few doing their best to safeguard their personal interests ahead of of others. There is not only a mad scramble to get a bite of this burgeoning pie, but also added aspect of ego. Never mind if things are not correct, but i must be in control and stamp every piece of paper along the way.

The pilots themselves will not be able to correct any industrial stupidity as they will simply be black marked and shot, never to be employed in any sphere. So they take a path of least resistance, blame those who cannot hurt you to rake up controversy, and hopefully gain from any fallout.

Any path the sector takes now, will have far reaching consequences in the IMMEDIATE, and, near future, AND WILL AFFECT EVERYONE.
The lessons from Korean and China, the banning of Indonesian and Pakistani a/c, amongst other countries to western nations etc, should be sobering thoughts. If one feels that this sort of situation may not arise, then remember about the story of one of the best airlines of the 60's, which has become a basket case now. Air India.

Recently, an Indian F/O told me about how much he was learning from expat commanders. When queried if he mentioned this to local commanders ?
His answer was........"you got to be joking."
I guess this was an unfair question, but seriously, i do feel that there is a lot more ground to be covered in the cockpit, before the galloping horse is allowed to bolt.

[Dagar]

willyou never learn,IAF pilots are one of the best out there,try googlin IAF SU 30 pilots at Red flag exercise.And the best airline in the world(SIA) comes to India to recruit pilots,I wonder why they do not go to Canada

[Willie Everlearn]

dagar

Not sure what points you're trying to make here, as I didn't say Indian air force pilots were no good as pilots. I did imply certain good old boy attitudes exist (which are evident in our own air force pilots) but when you have 'attitude' you may have to deliver. Many don't deliver, regardless of whether or not they're ex-air force or civilian. But again, that wasn't my point. The good old boys club was the point I'd hoped you were clever enough to catch. The cracker is the DGCAs' concern that expats pose security concerns for Indian national security. What? Like Google Earth doesn't?

Red Flag. OK, I guess the only come back I have for that one is check out the Canadian Air Forces' contributions. You'll find they do pretty well for themselves as well. So, good for us (Canada and India).

I know a number of Canadian pilots with SIA, and it's no surprise they don't actively recruit pilots in Canada. Recruiting pilots in India doesn't say a lot. Although, with the boom in Indian aviation, why would an Indian national look for a flying in job anywhere else? It may have more to do with the cultural fabric of Singapore than any connection with Canada. More Indian lineage in Singapura than white anglo saxon. Just sayin'...although if many more of you guys immigrate to Canada, I may have just the connection with India I need. yeah?
Cathay Pacific recruit here, does that count?

rdr

Well said.

Willie
(Like your Tourism Board says, Incredible India. An amazing country.)

[Capt Apache]

@Top Tup

But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.

Dear Sir,

My only suspicion is that even if I did infact acquire the necessary skill,maturity,experience and knowledge, people like you will still rule me out(along with my other countrymen) on the pretex that we lack Common Sense.(Remember... you mentioned that on another thread)

Although I am sympathetic towards your experience in AI, I am surprised that you haven't met some of the most brilliant and professional Indian Pilots that I have in my career.I still feel that your perspective is skewed and that your opinions are selective.

I do however agree with a lot of things you have said.

[fullforward]

Jimmy et alia

Please do a favor to yourselves, your career and ultimately your country:

Take the last Top Tup and rdr posts, make enlarged prints (1 x 1m should be nice) make some copies, frame it and put on display at various locations on your home: office, bathroom, room etc. Promise to read it at least 4 times a day. Everything is there, accurate, unbiased, honest.
Enough of the endless and tiresome rubbish!.

[flyjet787]

Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies

Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies

Saurabh Sinha, TNN, Apr 15, 2010, 04.29am IST

NEW DELHI: Caught between the demands of Indian carriers to extend the July 30 deadline for returning 600-odd expat pilots employed with them and the rising number of jobless desi co-pilots, the government may give a final extension of one year for sending back the foreigners. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has got a number of representations from airlines here, who essentially say that their services would be severely affected and many planes grounded if the July 30 deadline is not extended.

The regulator is now learnt to be planning to give one more year subject to condition that airlines ensure career progression of Indian pilots. The idea: Only when desi co-pilots are upgraded to captains, will airlines start hiring the over 3,000 unemployed co-pilots. "We want this to be the final extension and are trying to devise ways to ensure airlines keep their promise. The extension may have to be given as safety cannot be compromised," said a senior official.

On their part, airlines have told DGCA that there is a paucity of experienced Indian commanders. "It is essential to have the right experience level in cockpit for safety reasons. This will be jeopardized if airlines are unable to hire foreign commanders and have to pair newly upgraded Indian commanders with low experienced Indian co-pilots," said an airline official. They have told the regulator that it is essential to have experienced pilots for safe flying in monsoon and winter fog that may not be possible if July 30 deadline is not extended.

"Keeping experienced foreign commanders will allow airlines to recruit Indian co-pilots while still maintaining required safety levels in the cockpit. After recommended training, the fresh recruits can be paired with an experienced commander," said the airline official. In fact some airlines are seeking a three-year extension for retaining expat pilots, something that has not gone down well with the powers that be.

Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies - The Times of India

I am pretty sure these extensions will continue for the next couple of years..

[jimmygill]

Please do a favor to yourselves, your career and ultimately your country:

Take the last Top Tup and rdr posts, make enlarged prints (1 x 1m should be nice) make some copies, frame it and put on display at various locations on your home: office, bathroom, room etc. Promise to read it at least 4 times a day. Everything is there, accurate, unbiased, honest.
Enough of the endless and tiresome rubbish!.

Thanks fullforward for your bright Idea, I am already trying to figure out which one of Ansel Adams or Raghu Rais need to get out from my office, bathroom, room etc. to accommodate your recommendation.

Oh, yes... and please don't hesitate in future to give such suggestions.

[jimmygill]

When I read this mail first, I was happy to get something of value in this thread. But a friend suggested that I read it 4 times a day. This is a nice post and has its own merit, but I will comment on this to tell why some of us are so in awe of this post, and why this post is not an unbiased one.

Still it seems people are missing the point, well in my opinion......

The expats become so angry for their own reasons, alien to the locals. The expats have the hindsight of working at airlines where stringent standards were maintained, where bribery and corruption is not the norm, where an FO could speak up against a Capt and not be belittled or risk being fired.... They are not used to flying with FO's who are unable to hand fly and aircraft, plan a 3:1 decent profile, fly a raw data approach in Cat I min conditions and 20-25 kts x-wind. So, when they see and hear and experience first hand arrogant brats saying that they are just as qualified to do their job, they get angry.

The expats like this paragraph because it sings paens to thier background. The locals will hate this post because all have been painted with thick brush of arrogant-brat and without any debate author has declared that the LHS job is an expats right.

One doesn't need to be a literary genius to note the bias. On the other hand rdr's post is much less biased, but I promise I will come back to that in another post.

Many came from doing it "tough". Yes, that involved cleaning aircraft, sweeping the hangar, cleaning the cabin of their 4,6, 19, etc seater... (including the vomit), doing their own flight plans from scratch, weather, etc without the aid of the internet. It taught (us) so much from the ground up. We learnt through mistakes, by getting a call from ATC as to "where do you really want to go?" due an incorrect flight plan, etc. That was part of the "apprenticeship" I suppose. After 1000 hrs on a C210 you might get lucky and fly a light twin, then after 500 hrs PIC of that light twin and with perhaps 2500 hrs total you'll get a job on a turbo prop.

An overwhelming number of local brats surely didn't have it this "tough". I am maintaining the quotation marks because I have a gut feeling that neither I nor toptup feel that such a task is actually a tough task in the real sense of the word. But I am sure of one thing, the tough task was a paid task. And the pilot were paid at least half of the per hour flying pay for such ground tasks.
In India on the other hand in one tenth of the hourly pilot wages you can hire full time staff to do that cleaning and sweeping job for 9 hours a day.
So I guess in current economic conditions pilots in India will be bereaved of this dignity of labor which most expats experienced during their early career.

Student pilots at aviation academies in India don't even push back the C-150 into the parking slot. Before startup they have left wingman, right wingman and one fellow with fire extinguisher ready. Before parking they are marshalled back into parking space, the student and instructor exit the aircraft and the "other" workers push back the aircraft in the parking lot. These "other" workers are usually the would be aircraft maintenance 'professionals' on an unpaid apprenticeship.

Judging by these practices even early career in flight schools and/or charter companies is never going to be "tough" for the local pilot. Any one in with sensibility will understand that I am not bragging here, I am just presenting what surrounds the 'life style' of 'local' pilots.

The socio-economic conditions in India will guarantee that a working pilot will not get a tough initial career. This doesn't mean that there will be no good pilots in India.

Now, ask me would I like to do it all again if I were offered a 777 FO slot straight from flying school? HELL NO! I too would jump at it!

BUT! What I would EXPECT would be to be trained to the standard required. That DOES NOT happen from what I witnessed. In any decent and professional airline a pilot that crashes the sim, not once but twice, is suspended and given extra training. The training dept are called in to see how did they let this pilot down. If the pilot cannot be bought up to speed he/she is let go. For his/her safety AND that of the public. This is NOT the case at AI! I have the evidence to support that! In the same example the said pilot was given a check0ride to DXB 2 days later, his "batch mate" passed him and I was reprimanded and told to change my review.

The intent of my asking that question was to establish that safety is not achieved merely by relying on individuals to take decisions with safety as first priority. Pilots and other aviation professionals like every other individuals live in a world of material, and there are going to be times when the consideration of safety is going to take a back seat. It must be a goal of a safe airline or efficient regulator bring in policies which increases the likelihood that safety become first priority in as many decision making processes as possible.

While you may have the expectation of reasonable training by company before taking the RHS seat, several of your school mates may not have the same expectations. You do not represent all expats just like the arrogant brat doesn't represent all locals.

So, that is why the expats get angry when they hear brats like yours truly (above my post) believe it is their God-given right to pilot these aircraft and to hell with standards and expertise. They don't want to look elsewhere for a job flying. As one father told me with 2 children out of work with CPL's when I asked if his kids had sort employment as a instructor or anything else in GA such as freight or meat bombing (parachute ops), "They shouldn't have to fly a piston aircraft!!"

That father had spent around 100,000 USD on training his kids, he must be having another 100,000 USD ready to pay in bribes for paying to the HR/Trg Head/Ops Manager, it doesn't make any economic sense for him to expect his sons flying for piston engine operators in Africa.

Lets get a practical perspective on this. Lets think of two 250 hrs wonders Cpt. A and Cpt. B.

A and B both got their training from USA, both came back to India and got their licenses converted. At the end of the training both of them still had 40k USD each in their savings accounts.
Captain A choses to get a GA job in Africa, flying piston engine twins on survival wages. B on the other hand chose to stay in India, and after six months he got hold of agents to get him a job with say Indigo as f/o on A320 by emptying his bank account.

B was happily flying the twins in scenic Africa after two years his contract was over, he logged 1500 hours flying time and got himself an ATPL. So he is back home with 1500 hrs and an ATPL.

Then A & B compare their bank balances, A had around 45k, while B had around 30k.
Unfortunately industry is down and none is hiring. Its difficult to find agents who can get B a job in any airline as an F/O even for a 60k bribe.

Even if B can get a job in Indigo, he will be much down the seniority, despite his ATPL and excellent general aviation experience.

Who took a better career decision?

Having said that if the 250 hr wonders were not subjected to employment barrier in USA/Canada/Australia, they will still be choosing to go for the general aviation job, because not all of them at the end of the CPL training are left with 40k USD in thier bank accounts.


[QUOTE]
Now, the locals are angry as they believe the expats are occupying the seats they should be in. In some ways, they are right. But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.

Those talents MUST be taught to them since for whatever reason they are unable / incapable of getting that experience as (we) once had to. So they see an expat bad mouth a local "250 hr wonder" and react angrilly. A natural instinct. The expats are just as guilty at not seeing the cause of this FO's inabilities as they are themselves. The SYSTEM that is supposed to teach, nurture and train them into competent heavy jet transport pilots has failed them! And they know no better. Again, the expats have the privilege of hindsight from other walks of life in other airlines in other countries. They do not. That's a fact and can't be argued with.
[QUOTE]


I just hope the choice of word 'incapable' was an accident. Because if it were not an accident the bias is obvious.

So as per my previous post: go and start lobbying that despicably corrupt DGCA for the training and rights you are supposed to receive! Or, have none of you worked it out yet? How many pockets are being lined by the recruitment agencies? How many DGCA officials, AI officials, etc are on the take? (I heard of a certain AI head of training who just purchased 6, I think, apartments for $250k each. His wife happens to be head of ops and recruitment. The other snake in cohorts in charge of expats also seems to be doing exceptionally well for himself!)

As soon as you can see the barriers as they are AND are able to do something about it then not too much will change.

It will only be the really foolish or the really innocent ones who can't see these barriers. You were once inside the system, being a TRE how much dent could you make into these barriers, and how much do you expect the 250 hrs wonder to make while he is still outside the whorehouse, and desperate to get in. I and many others successfully bypassed the despicably corrupt DGCA and training industry in India and got ourselves good initial training. There are thousand shortcomings in Indian aviation, which one if any should we tackle first should be our prerogative, and we thought tackling the falsehood of promised-expat-phase-out will be best for 'us' (the unemployed 250 hr wonder). Then why do you direct us to expend our energies in lobbying DGCA to remove other 1000 barriers. If there is corruption in expat hiring shouldn't the expats be lobbying for it. If Air-India has poor and corrupt training practices, shouldn't the existing AI pilots be lobbying for better standards.

So, when / if you do get your "birth right" job and are meant to be in the sim for an 8 am start (7 am briefing) but the instructor decides to arrive at 8.45 am, has a coffee and talks crap.....when you ask what profile you are doing and he says "I don't know. What do you want to do?" and when you see your DGCA stamped instrument renewal already completed before you walk in yet do almost none of what has been pre-ticked off, will you question the standard of training you are receiving? HELL NO! You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.

Would I have been the same? Don't know. I hope not. I was lucky to have been trained in an uncompromising system where fail meant fail, where opening my wallet to turn a fail into a pass would have meant never flying again. After all, that TRE was really only protecting my own life and that of the public.

Hello no! I will not question the standards. The guy who can pass you without doing anything, can also fail you when you do everything. What the TRE did was a display of power. He just said "you can't touch me, take your IR/LR and go fly." I will do what you did, you complied. You did it by resigning and I may not have an option to resign immediately, but yes after a few years in AI I can quit too, can't I.
In the quoted paragraph your bias is shown by your assumption that

You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.

You were or may be even now are a TRE, 'lack of prejudice' is a professional requirement from you, it is at topmost level (5th) on Maslow's Hierarchy along with morality. I and other 250 hr wonders are struggling at the second level for employment, we may have to forgo morality to push our selves to higher levels and hopefully will keep some seed of morality to build it up again at 5th level.

That I can fly the 777 raw data within +-50 feet is not going to get me job, what is going to get me job is the corrupt AI Training Head, may be he needs money to furnish the new apartments, may be he can make good use of the 40k USD I have in my savings account.

[shanx]

I still fail to understand how all the expats continue to paint all Indian national wannabes and employed pilots with the same brush.

On an average, expats have lived and worked in India for at the most 4-5 years.

We (Indian wannabes and employed pilots) were born here, have grown up here and lived here for the past 20-30 years dealing with this monster of a bureaucracy and the system in place affecting us in almost every aspect of our daily lives.

Whether it is the frustration in getting your name registered on election rolls, getting a voter card, the exasperation of trying to get a driver's licence honestly, a ration card, dealing with the rude, retarded government officers and employees of the telephone department, the electricity board .. all the way up to dealing with the WPC or the DGCA etc ...
we know the harsh realities ... and most expats Im afraid conveniently ignore all these facts before posting and/or bashing up the Indian wannabes and aspirants.


Back to the topic ...

For the last time ... not all wannabes are simply sitting at home waiting for a miracle to happen.

Many of us have tried to look for work in the USA/Canada/Australia/NZ/Middle East as flight instructors, ground instructors or dispatchers.
So far, nothing has worked out on that front for various reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.

Yes, a couple of my friends are working in the USA right now as flight instructors and are getting close to an FAA ATP. BUT these guys are Green Card (permanent residents) of the USA and hence have the right to work there.
Yeah, there are a few others whom I know are working in USA and Canada, but they are all paying to fly.
They paid school for instructor ratings and are now paying for logging a certain number of "dual given" time in their logbooks, and also paying for accomodation and are getting ZERO SALARY.

There are a few other guys working in some flight schools in Texas as flight instructors for free, and in their part time are working illegally in gas stations, malls and hotels/motels.

Yes, there's ofcourse the option of marrying an American girl (plenty available on contract who do it for $$$) and thereby get USA/Canada residency, but no thanks ! .. Im happy with my current status here at home.

I'd rather wait patiently for an airline/charter job here in India, meanwhile being occupied with other work and refreshing my knowledge/concepts on aviation subjects, rather than prostituting myself in foreign land.

(btw .. a few guys I know are planning to do that soon ... the marrying an American/Canadian woman option .. they aparently were inspired by some of the expats's posts here and are determined to struggle their way up )

[Arabian Mustang]

There are a few other guys working in some flight schools in Texas as flight instructors for free, and in their part time are working illegally in gas stations, malls and hotels/motels.

Who do you think a potential employer would give preference to, a guy who prostituted himself in foreign land and has 5 times more flying hours than you or some one who has absolutely no idea about flying an airplane other than in a controlled training enviornment??

Its pretty easy to sit in front of your computer and moan about not getting a job on the RHS of Airbus or boeing. Ehhh!you people will never learn..

[jimmygill]

Who do you think a potential employer would give preference to, a guy who prostituted himself in foreign land and has 5 times more flying hours than you or some one who has absolutely no idea about flying an airplane other than in a controlled training enviornment??

In case the employer is in India, he cares only about the the money I can give him, and nothing else.

If we here knew that the employer will have any other preference we will have been going for that.

[shanx]

Who do you think a potential employer would give preference to, a guy who prostituted himself in foreign land and has 5 times more flying hours than you or some one who has absolutely no idea about flying an airplane other than in a controlled training enviornment??

@Arabian Mustang

Well, jimmygill has already replied to that.

But let me add a few more points....

First off, such a naive question only exposes your sheer ignorance about the job scene for a fresher/low time pilot job applicant in India.
Forget 5 times my flying experience buddy, you may have 10 times the experience on multi engine aircraft and an ATPL, YET, you will be placed in the VERY SAME CATEGORY along with all the other thousands of CPL holders with 200 hours whenever any airline starts hiring here.
You may have an MS, MBA, Phd etc, but that will make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE. You will still be called for tests or interviews and other assessments along with all the other thousands of 200 hour guys and girls with a CPL and a high school certificate.
This is the hard fact and there's absolutely NOTHING you can do about it, unless of course you are a big shot with a father or uncle or other close friend who is a powerful politician, a big bureaucrat, or someone high up in the hierarchy of the airline management.

Its pretty easy to sit in front of your computer and moan about not getting a job on the RHS of Airbus or boeing. Ehhh!you people will never learn..

The same way it is so easy for people to write BS like you have done without doing any kind of homework or study on the realities of the place and geographic location you're talking about.

and by the way, Assuming you're from one of the western nations who are all for prostituting themselves in the name of "working the long hard and tough way up", ... it is exactly because of the likes of you that the whole profession and the industry is in such a mess particularly in the USA and much of the western world.

It is very easy to moan about degrading T&c's, exploitation by bean counters, PFJ schemes, pilots getting shafted, etc etc on pprune and other forums.

If only there was a serious effort against outfits like eaglejet (USA) etc. and the whole concept of PFJ or P2F etc, with a strong move to bring about a legislation against the whole thing, many of the pilots crying out in forums now would never have seen such pathetic state of affiars.

If the salaries of Captains, TRI's, TRE's on wide body a/c in the USA etc are comparable to those of walmart employees with laughable t&c's, it is only because of pilots who prostitute themselves and bring down the standards of this profession.

[TopTup]

I’ll stand by every word I typed. However, using your poetic license to voluntarily highlight certain words in bold that I did not in order to press your opinions is not welcomed. It’s quite cheap really.

I have never meant to paint every unemployed or “250 hr wonder” in India as a spoilt brat. My words are selective to those who sit at home, day after day, who whinge, complain on forums like this who haven’t the strength of character to get off their lazy and conceited ar$se to search for any job in aviation, any job to fly an aircraft anywhere. Those who are continually studying to better themselves and who have hit the road to find employment anywhere in order to build their hours and start their long road of gaining experience have only my utmost respect and sympathies.

Now BIAS? I am as biased as is the person who goes to self publicized restaurant and is sent to hospital with severe food poisoning, who reports this to proper authorities and then goes on the advise all his or friends to never go to that restaurant again. But then sits back to see this same restaurant and its employees cheerfully boasting about how their greatest in standards and hygiene is beyond question. Biased, then in this case (in my case) I’ll plead guilty.

Bias? Against those who claim that correct and strict RT is not needed, against those who cannot fly an aircraft without the use of AP, FD's or AT, against those who believe and advocate that you only have to be of average skill and knowledge to fly a sophisticated heavy jet transport, against those who abuse the FO or the FA's, who smoke in the cockpit, who violate SOPs by matter of arrogant habit, against those who live by a corrupt system promoting low and dangerous standards..... I AM GUILTY. And damn proud to be too. (And I refer to ALL sectors and nationalities for those about to try the pathetic role to claim racism, as is so often the case here).

You want expats to understand, respect and appreciate “The socio-economic conditions in India will guarantee that a working pilot will not get a tough initial career. This doesn't mean that there will be no good pilots in India.”

The tough tasks you speak are and still will be VERY tough! To pack your bags and drive continuously for 3 or 4 days (as I know pilots in Australia do, eg Sydney to Kununurra!) to sleep in their car, to bath and shower by the roadside, to then don suit and tie, CV in hand to ask for job in a dirty and dusty hangar, to be told “No”, so hence drive another 12 or so hours to the next outback GA establishment. Yes, they leave family behind, girlfriends/boyfriends behind, a potential job and Daddy’s firm in order to follow unquestioned passion and vocation. Some look toward Papua New Guinea and others Africa. They arrive with uniform in hand, log book in briefcase and Davies “Handling the Big Jets” under their arm.

No, as has been pointed out to you already, you are ill informed and ill educated in the GA scene in countries like Australia, NZ, the US or Africa. These pilots are almost always paid for flight time only. Cleaning the aircraft, sweeping the hangers, refueling your own aircraft are all part of the job, and if you do not do it there are 100’s of fresh CPL holders who have made the same trek waiting outside that hangar to do what you say you “don’t have to” because with a fresh CPL such tasks are below me!

I know of 2 x colleagues sons who have swept hangers, assisted in the office and general maintenance hangers for FREE in the pure hope that they’ll be in the right place and the right time for the job. They are praying that the most senior pilot on the Chieftan or C404 gets that SECOND OFFICER job at QF, ANZ or CX so he can be the one to replace him, starting on a C172 or C210. In the evenings he/she works at the local bar, drives taxis or takes tourists on mining tours in other spare time. I heard of a pilot who arrived at a hangar, was told there was no job and so began the journey to the next township. 2 hours down the road he was called by the CP and told he had a charter that afternoon. Could he make it in time? (Rare, but it does happen! Time and place.)

Open your eyes and read the Dunnunda & Godzone forums, or those covering the GA scene in Africa and PNG. When you read what these pilots do to gain experience, to better themselves to be more competitive for a job in 2 or 3 or 4 years time then perhaps my opinion of arrogant little brats not having the spine to do such things may be, if but only slightly, warranted. Instead you comment on matters you no nothing about.

So excuse me if the Indian pilot hasn’t the integrity to respect the expat pilot who can park and taxi his own aircraft without a wing-walker, who is able to safely refuel a light aircraft, who can tell you in great detail about Frise Ailerons, about a variable incidence elevator, about trim tab positioning and usage, about vortex generators, sweep, dihedral vs anhedral, about every antenna, receiver, transmitter and wire placed on, beside or on top of the fuselage: all borne out of cleaning and polishing an aircraft and learning as they go.

So, your example of Pilot A vs Pilot B bears no water with me. (And please, stop calling a child who once did a circuit in a C152 solo and logged 0.3 of a flight hour under the “Command” section of a log book as “Captain”). So, I’ll answer your question with a question: Who would rather employ? Pilot X or showed initiative, integrity, passion and dedication to his career, who went out and hunted for means and ways to further their aviation credentials by way of flying experience and education, or the Pilot Y who sat and b!tched day in and day out on PPRuNe about not walking straight into a heavy jet transport? Who despise those expats with 25000 hrs for taking the job they can do with a brand new CPL and 200 hrs! What’s wrong with getting off your lazing and arrogant, spoilt tails and looking for work to better your credentials and then the very second an interview comes you time off to attend it? That’s the way it is almost always done in many, many, many other countries in the world. Oh! Excuse me, I forgot: “He / she should have to!!!”

Shanx, you raise the point this is just the way it is in Indian aviation; that credentials, experience and integrity bear no weight in job placement? I cannot argue with you as I have no foundation point to. However, I find this very hard to believe.

So, the father who spent $100k USD and appears to be out of pocket? HA!!! Welcome to aviation!!!!!! Compared to colleagues of mine from United, etc, this guy has gotten off lightly! Why doesn’t he kick his kids up the backside, demand they get out and better their flying experience and credentials? Nah…. Again, “they shouldn’t have to.” So, who’s the damn fool?

The term INCAPABLE. I used it in reference to the fact that the GA scene in India is not as established as it is in other parts of the world. If my reference inferred differently then I apolgise, but that is what I meant. But, if this is the case, then what’s wrong with looking at Africa or PNG, or Sth East Asia? Having said that I will bet that very few kids have even tried the GA circuit in India to look for work.

As a TRE I pride myself on assessments based purely on the regulatory authority’s standards, the airline’s SOPs and the candidate’s adherence to those standards. For you to suggest otherwise is insulting in the extreme. I will pass or fail a pilot purely on those terms and I do not care if he is my “batch mate” my brother, my uncle, my best friend’s father. That attitude was not welcomed at AI.

My credentials outside of flying stem from 2 x tertiary degrees in the field of Aviation (science and psychology divisions). I am a certified CRM instructor and facilitator recognized in both the FAA and JAA. Am not going to annoy the moderators of this forum and cut ‘n paste my papers, research or programs to do with CRM and HF. Your ability to do so does not bear any weight other then a pretty pyramid table. Your credentials to do so are, well, boring. (While still valid they are also very old and common knowledge in the CRM field, by the way. If you want to research the latest developments in CRM start studying the fields of CRM/TER).

“That I can fly the 777 raw data within +-50 feet is not going to get me job, what is going to get me job is the corrupt AI Training Head, may be he needs money to furnish the new apartments, may be he can make good use of the 40k USD I have in my savings account.” [Jimmygill]

Well, that just about sums it all up for “Incredible” India and aviation! What a sad, sad, sad and pitiful indictment on both yourself and profession. Why not cease lobbying the government and DGCA to get rid of expats and / or to not bother about training inexperienced pilots to the required standards?? Instead, how about set a petition to the ICAO (I’m sure you’ll get many thousands of signatures) for a recognized Indian ACBL (Airline Career Bribed License). It appears that is all you both want and need, coming from your words.

After all, as you state: “we may have to forgo morality” [Jimmygill]

Conscience? Integrity? Honor? Airmanship? Professionalism?

To not be able to handle an aircraft +/- 50 ft is a FAIL. If you go beneath an MSA, MDA or DDH by 1 ft under IMC then it is a FAIL! Sorry to have to quote the minimum instrument rating knowledge to you, but you don’t seem to know or care. Flying 50 ft high or low on an ILS? Yeah, real safe! Add cold weather to that and you just turned even more deadly.

Jimmygill, I thought better of you.

So, that’s me signing off from yet another thread. Arguing against imbecilia, of ignorance, against people without the slightest hint of integrity or knowledge to support an opinion has turned boring and beneath the standards of airmanship that I would choose to employ. My high horse and I’ll ride it.

See ya kiddies! Be lucky!!! Because Safety isn’t really a concern of yours.

For those with the integrity, and passion to follow their dream and vocation then I wish you all the very best. My posts have only ever meant to highlight the despicable scene and standards at airlines like AI and raise some attention to them, as well as to argue against ill informed agendas and those supporting these standards. Never against yourselves. Your own conscience will tell you that.

Shun mediocrity and work hard to achieve your goals. You’ll have to but the rewards are worth it.

[profsx]

totally back that up!!!

[fullforward]

Toptup

" So, that’s me signing off from yet another thread. Arguing against imbecilia, of ignorance, against people without the slightest hint of integrity or knowledge to support an opinion has turned boring and beneath the standards of airmanship that I would choose to employ. My high horse and I’ll ride it."

Fully agree with you. Unfortunately we have to consider that types like Jimmigirl and the likes grew up (?) amid this garbage and will not evolve into anything that resembles a civilized, fully safety oriented aviation culture. They prefer loose an arm than to choose their mindset.

Unfortunately again, it would take some smoking debris and hundreds of lifes claim before they can learn something, no matter the same mistakes were made in the past (KAL, African and Latin America carriers). And this is just a matter of time to happen, given the chilling FOQA data received every day, as a friend of mine (indian, bu the way) that works on a safety department of an indian carrier, receive everyday: unstabilized approaches, poor airmanship, lack of proper discipline that would mean a termination on every airline worth it's name are considered on a paternalistic way, like simple and excusable mistakes...

Until that, we're justing loosing our time on this endless rubish.

[Capt Apache]

We (Indian wannabes and employed pilots) were born here, have grown up here and lived here for the past 20-30 years dealing with this monster of a bureaucracy and the system in place affecting us in almost every aspect of our daily lives.

I think this whole argument has less to do with safety and more to do with 'We had it tough,so you should have it tougher'....We already did... by the time we grew into our teens

Forget 5 times my flying experience buddy, you may have 10 times the experience on multi engine aircraft and an ATPL, YET, you will be placed in the VERY SAME CATEGORY along with all the other thousands of CPL holders with 200 hours whenever any airline starts hiring here

You are absolutely right.You can go to Africa and get tons of experience .But if you don't have the money for endorsement on that Great Big Jet...You will still be nowhere.

You were once inside the system, being a TRE how much dent could you make into these barriers, and how much do you expect the 250 hrs wonder to make while he is still outside the whorehouse, and desperate to get in.

That pretty much sums it up for the Top Tups...Expect a 250 hr guy to change the world instead of trying to get a job.

So excuse me if the Indian pilot hasn’t the integrity to respect the expat pilot who can park and taxi his own aircraft without a wing-walker, who is able to safely refuel a light aircraft, who can tell you in great detail about Frise Ailerons, about a variable incidence elevator, about trim tab positioning and usage, about vortex generators, sweep, dihedral vs anhedral, about every antenna, receiver, transmitter and wire placed on, beside or on top of the fuselage: all borne out of cleaning and polishing an aircraft and learning as they go.

And you still think you are not biased.I thought you only had problems with people who cant fly raw data, but it looks like we dont know anything at all Sir...I am sorry we exist.

[Mike_Kilo_Sierra]

Having been through the entire thread, I don't really see the point of all the arguing, bickering, name calling. What good are we doing? Nobody at DGCA is reading this. Even if they are, it's too much of a hassle to bring about any change. Like someone once said, be the change. But slugging it out in forums will not do any justice to the cause.

I'm really nobody to even be qualified to talk about anything related to the expats. But I think I'll make an exception. Expats are here because they are needed. It's competition, it is up to us to get better and get those flying jobs. Competition is there in every line. If you really look, other fields are far more competitive. So blaming them for being here isn't the best way of handling this situation.

One thing I've realised about aviation. It isn't cheap. If you don't have the resources, it can be frustrating when the expenses just keep piling up. Plan Bs are more important than your Plan A. Plan B will help you put food on the table and if you're lucky let you fly to build your hours. I've been at it for more than a year. Sure it's frustrating but do I have any other option? No. So I keep plugging at it one measly hour at a time. Frankly getting a loan in this environment is not the best idea, especially when everybody knows about the job scene for a low time pilot. That loan puts a student under immense pressure to get a job to pay back the loan and this leads to frustration. No matter how much we are attracted to aviation, being in debt is just not worth it.

The GA scene in India isn't great. But it isn't non-existent. You have to go the remote places and sweat it out at hangers and airstrips just so somebody might give you a chance to fly that rusty old C152. Contacts are very important, if you are not a people person...it becomes that much more difficult. Believe me after having been in the automotive industry for more than four years, contacts are everything and aviation is no different.

Talking about quality of pilots in India. I was surprised to see some people training along side who simply lacked the aptitude to be a pilot. I know a lot of people who barely have 50hrs, but have a captain with their name. So there must be some truth to it when the expats say some people are arrogant and simply don't deserve to be where they are.

But not everyone is the same. There are a lot of people who will make good pilots in the future. My appeal to the expats, be a little considerate...the Indian road to aviation is a lot tougher than you might think.

The bottom line is, no amount of arguing on pprune is going to make any difference to the indian aviation scene.

MKS out.