DGCA Expat Phase-Out
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: US
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A
Do you work here in India? Because if you don't you are not helping those of us who live and work here. If you do work here there are hundreds of arrivals and departures with all Indian crews all over the world every day. I don't see any smoking holes being made. Lets hope it stays that way. I know we often forget but there are people sitting behind that cockpit door.
Jet
Do you work here in India? Because if you don't you are not helping those of us who live and work here. If you do work here there are hundreds of arrivals and departures with all Indian crews all over the world every day. I don't see any smoking holes being made. Lets hope it stays that way. I know we often forget but there are people sitting behind that cockpit door.
Jet
Join Date: May 2006
Location: tropopause
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get over it Jimmygill
Let's take a look at how many Indians have immigrated and are working in the USA Airline Industry and have received preferential treatment as a minority. FYI: No comparison pal.
Do not complain to me about Expat's working in India. Or how many Indian immigrant's in the USA who after getting there measly 500 hours go back to India and get in the right seat as born again Indian's. Give me a break. You guy's invade every other country and take jobs and cry spilled milk when people come into your backyard.
Do not complain to me about Expat's working in India. Or how many Indian immigrant's in the USA who after getting there measly 500 hours go back to India and get in the right seat as born again Indian's. Give me a break. You guy's invade every other country and take jobs and cry spilled milk when people come into your backyard.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Where they speak ICAO Level -2
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In India parents say "Study well my child, or you wont get a job"
In America parents say "Study well my child or else an Indian will grab your job"
Does this make sense to anyone..?
KJ
In America parents say "Study well my child or else an Indian will grab your job"
Does this make sense to anyone..?
KJ
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: @
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The free flow of qualified foreign labour policy is usually in place when there are shortages of professionals for certain occupation in any given country, and likewise the restricitions when there isn't any. This applies to both the developed and developing countries. This topic seems to be the bone of contention between expats and Indian pilots, when neither can provide any solid statistics disproving each other.
The DGCA has a problem about being transparent, hence certain Indian pilots' plan to request for rti , and invite inputs from others. There wouldn't be so much of controversy if the detailed statistics were made publicly available.
Recently many threads in the South Asia and Far east are rife with "who's better than who" arguments, and posts obviously meant to one up each other, in between good advice and useful info. When someone gets offended, there are comments about the persons from that particular country being unable to take a joke. It is just good etiquette to allow people to make fun of themselves or their nationality, but it is not ok for someone else to do it.
As a result many posts or threads designed to respond in a tit for tat manner keep cropping up. Consequently some people got banned, and some people got away with it.
I guess it is just wishful thinking that the threads will be less about "I am better than you" and more about facts, knowledge exchange, and of course, passing on rumours.
The DGCA has a problem about being transparent, hence certain Indian pilots' plan to request for rti , and invite inputs from others. There wouldn't be so much of controversy if the detailed statistics were made publicly available.
Recently many threads in the South Asia and Far east are rife with "who's better than who" arguments, and posts obviously meant to one up each other, in between good advice and useful info. When someone gets offended, there are comments about the persons from that particular country being unable to take a joke. It is just good etiquette to allow people to make fun of themselves or their nationality, but it is not ok for someone else to do it.
As a result many posts or threads designed to respond in a tit for tat manner keep cropping up. Consequently some people got banned, and some people got away with it.
I guess it is just wishful thinking that the threads will be less about "I am better than you" and more about facts, knowledge exchange, and of course, passing on rumours.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: earth
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@411A
Well Sir ... here's something you and the likes of you have been wishing for all along ...
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...n-reports.html
Once you see that piece of news, Im sure you and all the other sadist "professionals" dreaming and YEARNING for "smoking craters" are going to have one hell of an orgasm ...
A couple of smokin' holes with local pilots 'in charge' and it will be permanent.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...n-reports.html
Once you see that piece of news, Im sure you and all the other sadist "professionals" dreaming and YEARNING for "smoking craters" are going to have one hell of an orgasm ...
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: earth
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In India parents say "Study well my child, or you wont get a job"
In America parents say "Study well my child or else an Indian will grab your job"
Does this make sense to anyone..?
In America parents say "Study well my child or else an Indian will grab your job"
Does this make sense to anyone..?
Well, that implies :
Indian children study hard, American children hardly study
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Indian Government aren't immune to making mistakes. Getting rid of expat pilots would be just another serious mistake and mean disaster for Indian air lines who need the experienced crew. Now is not the time for the Indian government to be turfing expat pilots. Get serious! 
When Indian pilots realize that a 250 hour wonder with a freshly minted CPL and multi engine rating DOESN'T sit in the RHS of a modern jet airliner, these rantings will cease and common sense will prevail.
Willie
When Indian pilots realize that a 250 hour wonder with a freshly minted CPL and multi engine rating DOESN'T sit in the RHS of a modern jet airliner, these rantings will cease and common sense will prevail.
Willie
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well it defies logic or economic sense when expat 4 year guys are being phased out while some new hire expats are being processed to replace them.
I dare say it will be some time before common sense will see the light of day!
I dare say it will be some time before common sense will see the light of day!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: HERE AND THERE
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4 year rule
According to a top DGCA official that flew with a friend last week this 4 year rule is dead and gone.
Finally something starts to make sense.
By the way, the combined experiences of the top guns in command of the ill fated Polish president plane were less than 4.000 hs, more than the required for command upgrade in India. With a 250 hr first officer.
Finally something starts to make sense.
By the way, the combined experiences of the top guns in command of the ill fated Polish president plane were less than 4.000 hs, more than the required for command upgrade in India. With a 250 hr first officer.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What the hell has that devastating accident in Russia got to do with this topic?will you children stoop that low to further your agenda?
Back to the topic....
Your passport & nationality DOES NOT automaticly grant you the God given right to pilot a sophisticated aircraft. That same nationality does not rubber stamp instantaneous experience, training and credentials borne from that training & experience.
Yes, replace the foreign labor when the pilots available to fill that void can compete in terms of expertise through training, since experience has to be replaced by that training. So stop lobbying to get rid of the labor that keeps your airlines flying and start DEMANDING the training and standards you are owed in order to replace the foreign labor.
Your anger is so misplaced. You would rather lower the bar for your egotistical gain & pure arrogant agendas. If you demand to be that pathetic then at the very least have the credentials to support it! Not just a shiny CPL and email address such as "[email protected]"
Your newspapers and AI circulars are even stating the current standards are so bad the the MINIMUM ability to hand fly an aircraft is considered dangerous! Hand flying an NDB approach after a full sector entry should be the minimum. Not a national identity.
Get rid of the expats when you can replace what they bring. Demand that training and not compromise it by bribery, corruption and forged training documents.
Until that happens you are left with this necessary evil. Get over it and start focussing your anger in the right direction, not cheap xenophobia.
Airlines like Cathay and Qantas with Second Officers with a few thousand hours, a minimum of 500 multi engine PIC wait and are trained for (usually) a mimnimum of 3 years. So 4 years to get an expat in, train a batch of local pilots, & get the expat out is not impossible! So WHY is it not happening??!!!!
Focus your attention in the right direction & not in the oh so easy relm of blaming those who are bought in to do what you should be given the training to do yourself.
Back to the topic....
Your passport & nationality DOES NOT automaticly grant you the God given right to pilot a sophisticated aircraft. That same nationality does not rubber stamp instantaneous experience, training and credentials borne from that training & experience.
Yes, replace the foreign labor when the pilots available to fill that void can compete in terms of expertise through training, since experience has to be replaced by that training. So stop lobbying to get rid of the labor that keeps your airlines flying and start DEMANDING the training and standards you are owed in order to replace the foreign labor.
Your anger is so misplaced. You would rather lower the bar for your egotistical gain & pure arrogant agendas. If you demand to be that pathetic then at the very least have the credentials to support it! Not just a shiny CPL and email address such as "[email protected]"
Your newspapers and AI circulars are even stating the current standards are so bad the the MINIMUM ability to hand fly an aircraft is considered dangerous! Hand flying an NDB approach after a full sector entry should be the minimum. Not a national identity.
Get rid of the expats when you can replace what they bring. Demand that training and not compromise it by bribery, corruption and forged training documents.
Until that happens you are left with this necessary evil. Get over it and start focussing your anger in the right direction, not cheap xenophobia.
Airlines like Cathay and Qantas with Second Officers with a few thousand hours, a minimum of 500 multi engine PIC wait and are trained for (usually) a mimnimum of 3 years. So 4 years to get an expat in, train a batch of local pilots, & get the expat out is not impossible! So WHY is it not happening??!!!!
Focus your attention in the right direction & not in the oh so easy relm of blaming those who are bought in to do what you should be given the training to do yourself.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The EXPAT vs Indian pilot debate has been going on here for the past couple of years. All sides of the debate have merit to it. However a "250" hour wonder in 2007 as is mentioned somewhere here should have now become a more experienced 2500 hour wonder by now? (subject to him being employed all the while).
Just curious, but is that not the principal. Let the experienced expats be around till our "wonders" either gain experience or get weeded out. Considering most flights in India are under 2 hours that would mean in 4 years sufficient experience in the critical phases of flight for some of these guys to have good experience under their belt.
Now once the 2007 wunderkind becomes a 3000 hr experienced "Kapitan", he will have to worry about the 250 hour kid snapping at his heels and not the Expat.
Just curious, but is that not the principal. Let the experienced expats be around till our "wonders" either gain experience or get weeded out. Considering most flights in India are under 2 hours that would mean in 4 years sufficient experience in the critical phases of flight for some of these guys to have good experience under their belt.
Now once the 2007 wunderkind becomes a 3000 hr experienced "Kapitan", he will have to worry about the 250 hour kid snapping at his heels and not the Expat.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: downtown dustbowl
Age: 47
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Willie,
A case of sour grapes I presume.
The flip side of your argument is the bloodsucking charter companies in Canada that assume that a 250 hour CPL holder is a prime candidate for washing and loading planes. Two extreme ends to a very broad spectrum.
Top Tup,
You make valid points backed up with first hand experience and it becomes almost impossible to question your viewpoint (which a lot of people do).
But what I have a beef with is the fact that expats in general consider Indian pilots... in general to be quite incompetent at what they do hence the smaking crater prophecies rampant in these forums.
Going through 411's posts, he mentions things with point blank sincerity which draws a lot of flak from others. But based on his assumptions the overriding adjective to describe Indian pilots is incompetence and indifference which I disagree with.
I am sure if I were to apply in his outfit AND meet/exceed the requirements my resume would be at the bottom of his trashcan just by virtue of me being Indian. There is a word for that kind of behaviour and don't get me wrong... we Indians practice it as well in its many forms.
A case of sour grapes I presume.
The flip side of your argument is the bloodsucking charter companies in Canada that assume that a 250 hour CPL holder is a prime candidate for washing and loading planes. Two extreme ends to a very broad spectrum.
Top Tup,
You make valid points backed up with first hand experience and it becomes almost impossible to question your viewpoint (which a lot of people do).
But what I have a beef with is the fact that expats in general consider Indian pilots... in general to be quite incompetent at what they do hence the smaking crater prophecies rampant in these forums.
Going through 411's posts, he mentions things with point blank sincerity which draws a lot of flak from others. But based on his assumptions the overriding adjective to describe Indian pilots is incompetence and indifference which I disagree with.
I am sure if I were to apply in his outfit AND meet/exceed the requirements my resume would be at the bottom of his trashcan just by virtue of me being Indian. There is a word for that kind of behaviour and don't get me wrong... we Indians practice it as well in its many forms.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
av8r76
Canada has it's own stupidity. For sure.
Sour grapes? No, not really. As I've already said regarding Canadian pilots, Canadian pilot jobs for Canadian pilots. So I have to agree, Indian pilot jobs for Indian pilots. But in both cases experience is the game breaker. As long as you have the experience level, you're in good shape. However, airlines know they need experience. That's why you have expats in any country when needed. Look at China, the Middle East, Japan, and others. India doesn't stand exempt. It's just the reality. Protect your own at all costs and innocent lives are lost.
Have you ever been involved in the training of Indian 'nationals'? Not NRIs. But home grown nationals? As difficult a pill as this is to swallow, they are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Even those with presumably thousands of hours. The ones to avoid, at all costs, are the "good old boys" from the Indian Air Force.
But, hang on a second, isn't the DGCA swarming with good old boys???
Kicking expats out may not be the way forward. But I have no say in it. Just an opinion based on my experience.
Willie
Canada has it's own stupidity. For sure.
Sour grapes? No, not really. As I've already said regarding Canadian pilots, Canadian pilot jobs for Canadian pilots. So I have to agree, Indian pilot jobs for Indian pilots. But in both cases experience is the game breaker. As long as you have the experience level, you're in good shape. However, airlines know they need experience. That's why you have expats in any country when needed. Look at China, the Middle East, Japan, and others. India doesn't stand exempt. It's just the reality. Protect your own at all costs and innocent lives are lost.
Have you ever been involved in the training of Indian 'nationals'? Not NRIs. But home grown nationals? As difficult a pill as this is to swallow, they are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Even those with presumably thousands of hours. The ones to avoid, at all costs, are the "good old boys" from the Indian Air Force.
But, hang on a second, isn't the DGCA swarming with good old boys???
Kicking expats out may not be the way forward. But I have no say in it. Just an opinion based on my experience.
Willie
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Well thats a big volcano...
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"that a 250 hour CPL holder is a prime candidate for washing and loading planes. "
WTF, you wont wash and load a plane at 250 hrs, maybe time to realize you arent a god, just a pilot!
I have been flying 22 years and I will still get out there and help clean the plane, and yes I help load bags. I am just a pilot not a god, and I am capable of loading a bag, and I will do it to get the job done.
Sorry, this is reality. Now go and wash the plane and get some hours...
Or download Ice Pilots ( show about Canadian bush pilots), cool tv show, and watch how the one India guy doesnt even last a month, and he has the chance of the coolest job flying a DC4, or DC3 ...but his sisters, husbands, brothers cousin twice removed is having his tonsils removed so he must return to Indian I think is the excuse as to why he leaves... or something like that
WTF, you wont wash and load a plane at 250 hrs, maybe time to realize you arent a god, just a pilot!
I have been flying 22 years and I will still get out there and help clean the plane, and yes I help load bags. I am just a pilot not a god, and I am capable of loading a bag, and I will do it to get the job done.
Sorry, this is reality. Now go and wash the plane and get some hours...
Or download Ice Pilots ( show about Canadian bush pilots), cool tv show, and watch how the one India guy doesnt even last a month, and he has the chance of the coolest job flying a DC4, or DC3 ...but his sisters, husbands, brothers cousin twice removed is having his tonsils removed so he must return to Indian I think is the excuse as to why he leaves... or something like that
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
itsbrokenagain
Don't get me wrong on this but I'm wondering whether or not you are/want to be a pilot?
Pilot's don't wash aeroplanes as part of their job description or responsibilities. They don't hang around or sit in aeroplanes to empty rubbish bins, cross the seat belts or pick up crap on the carpet. Their responsibilities are outside that job description, attitude or anything even close to that.
Your responsibility as a pilot, especially on a 25 minute turn around is on the flight deck. Paying attention to weather, fuel requirements and flight planning. Not to mention the very critical weight and balance for takeoff performance. n'est pas?
Did I miss something in your remarks? Or is my 'god complex' oozing a little too much?
Willie
Don't get me wrong on this but I'm wondering whether or not you are/want to be a pilot?
Pilot's don't wash aeroplanes as part of their job description or responsibilities. They don't hang around or sit in aeroplanes to empty rubbish bins, cross the seat belts or pick up crap on the carpet. Their responsibilities are outside that job description, attitude or anything even close to that.
Your responsibility as a pilot, especially on a 25 minute turn around is on the flight deck. Paying attention to weather, fuel requirements and flight planning. Not to mention the very critical weight and balance for takeoff performance. n'est pas?
Did I miss something in your remarks? Or is my 'god complex' oozing a little too much?
Willie
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birthplace of Aviation
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SUNCHASER WROTE:
1. Less than 1.5% of residents in America are original inhabitants. Those "Indian" immigrants who are getting the preferential treatment in America are American residents/citizens and not Indian Citizens.
2. Measly 500? Can you please explain what number is not measly enough? Haven't ever the regionals in USA hired F/O with that kind of experience.
3. East India Company Was a group of Indian Traders, the Europeans took the Americas without killing a single native American, Japanese nuked themselves, People of Iraq overthrew Saddam Hussain, International Peace Keeping Force is flying drones in Afghanistan. Patels invaded God Blessed America just to run the motels.
cocochannel wrote:
The whole thread began with the idea of getting the statistics. People on both sides of the later established debate read between the lines and jumped in with nonsense.
After having ex-pats in sizable numbers and for several years, the regulator and some section of the industry decided for phaseout. We just wanted to know if that phaseout is on the track. Motivation of industry was cutting the cost, motivation of the regulator was its answerablity to people.
Willie Everlearn wrote:
How much experience?
A Canadian DOESN'T eat with hands, and Indian DOES. An Indian 200 hr 'wonder' or 'no wonder' flies the right seat of the modern jet airliner. This has been the practice here. DOES and DOESN'T differ in different countries. Common sense needs common background.
Willy, I am reproducing this test, may be it will help you in self realization.
Remember the day when you got your CPL, and think what would have been your reaction if you were given these choices.
Use your common sense, you can share your answer here or keep it to yourself.
Let's take a look at how many Indians have immigrated and are working in the USA Airline Industry and have received preferential treatment as a minority. FYI: No comparison pal.
Do not complain to me about Expat's working in India. Or how many Indian immigrant's in the USA who after getting there measly 500 hours go back to India and get in the right seat as born again Indian's. Give me a break. You
and take jobs and cry spilled milk when people come into your backyard.
Do not complain to me about Expat's working in India. Or how many Indian immigrant's in the USA who after getting there measly 500 hours go back to India and get in the right seat as born again Indian's. Give me a break. You
guy's invade every other country
1. Less than 1.5% of residents in America are original inhabitants. Those "Indian" immigrants who are getting the preferential treatment in America are American residents/citizens and not Indian Citizens.
2. Measly 500? Can you please explain what number is not measly enough? Haven't ever the regionals in USA hired F/O with that kind of experience.
3. East India Company Was a group of Indian Traders, the Europeans took the Americas without killing a single native American, Japanese nuked themselves, People of Iraq overthrew Saddam Hussain, International Peace Keeping Force is flying drones in Afghanistan. Patels invaded God Blessed America just to run the motels.
cocochannel wrote:
The free flow of qualified foreign labour policy is usually in place when there are shortages of professionals for certain occupation in any given country, and likewise the restricitions when there isn't any. This applies to both the developed and developing countries. This topic seems to be the bone of contention between expats and Indian pilots, when neither can provide any solid statistics disproving each other.
After having ex-pats in sizable numbers and for several years, the regulator and some section of the industry decided for phaseout. We just wanted to know if that phaseout is on the track. Motivation of industry was cutting the cost, motivation of the regulator was its answerablity to people.
Willie Everlearn wrote:
The Indian Government aren't immune to making mistakes. Getting rid of expat pilots would be just another serious mistake and mean disaster for Indian air lines who need the experienced crew. Now is not the time for the Indian government to be turfing expat pilots. Get serious!
When Indian pilots realize that a 250 hour wonder with a freshly minted CPL and multi engine rating DOESN'T sit in the RHS of a modern jet airliner, these rantings will cease and common sense will prevail.
Willy, I am reproducing this test, may be it will help you in self realization.
Remember the day when you got your CPL, and think what would have been your reaction if you were given these choices.
1. If tomorrow you have an offer from Air Canada to fly their Brand New A320 as a F/O with several scores of passengers behind you. Are you going to say, "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"
2. Suppose you selected the later choice, and after 4 years you have around 2500 hrs on A320 as F/O and you also have been working hard and got your ATPL. If the airline now comes with an offer of upgrading you to your left seat, with a 50-80% increase in take-home salary and reduced flight load. Will you say "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job and may be I will be ready after I log 2-3000 more hours as F/O?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"
2. Suppose you selected the later choice, and after 4 years you have around 2500 hrs on A320 as F/O and you also have been working hard and got your ATPL. If the airline now comes with an offer of upgrading you to your left seat, with a 50-80% increase in take-home salary and reduced flight load. Will you say "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job and may be I will be ready after I log 2-3000 more hours as F/O?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ubiquity
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, this is reality. Now go and wash the plane and get some hours...
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still it seems people are missing the point, well in my opinion......
The expats become so angry for their own reasons, alien to the locals. The expats have the hindsight of working at airlines where stringent standards were maintained, where bribery and corruption is not the norm, where an FO could speak up against a Capt and not be belittled or risk being fired.... They are not used to flying with FO's who are unable to hand fly and aircraft, plan a 3:1 decent profile, fly a raw data approach in Cat I min conditions and 20-25 kts x-wind. So, when they see and hear and experience first hand arrogant brats saying that they are just as qualified to do their job, they get angry.
Many came from doing it "tough". Yes, that involved cleaning aircraft, sweeping the hangar, cleaning the cabin of their 4,6, 19, etc seater... (including the vomit), doing their own flight plans from scratch, weather, etc without the aid of the internet. It taught (us) so much from the ground up. We learnt through mistakes, by getting a call from ATC as to "where do you really want to go?" due an incorrect flight plan, etc. That was part of the "apprenticeship" I suppose. After 1000 hrs on a C210 you might get lucky and fly a light twin, then after 500 hrs PIC of that light twin and with perhaps 2500 hrs total you'll get a job on a turbo prop.
Now, ask me would I like to do it all again if I were offered a 777 FO slot straight from flying school? HELL NO! I too would jump at it!
BUT! What I would EXPECT would be to be trained to the standard required. That DOES NOT happen from what I witnessed. In any decent and professional airline a pilot that crashes the sim, not once but twice, is suspended and given extra training. The training dept are called in to see how did they let this pilot down. If the pilot cannot be bought up to speed he/she is let go. For his/her safety AND that of the public. This is NOT the case at AI! I have the evidence to support that! In the same example the said pilot was given a check0ride to DXB 2 days later, his "batch mate" passed him and I was reprimanded and told to change my review.
So, that is why the expats get angry when they hear brats like yours truly (above my post) believe it is their God-given right to pilot these aircraft and to hell with standards and expertise. They don't want to look elsewhere for a job flying. As one father told me with 2 children out of work with CPL's when I asked if his kids had sort employment as a instructor or anything else in GA such as freight or meat bombing (parachute ops), "They shouldn't have to fly a piston aircraft!!"
Now, the locals are angry as they believe the expats are occupying the seats they should be in. In some ways, they are right. But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.
Those talents MUST be taught to them since for whatever reason they are unable / incapable of getting that experience as (we) once had to. So they see an expat bad mouth a local "250 hr wonder" and react angrilly. A natural instinct. The expats are just as guilty at not seeing the cause of this FO's inabilities as they are themselves. The SYSTEM that is supposed to teach, nurture and train them into competent heavy jet transport pilots has failed them! And they know no better. Again, the expats have the privilege of hindsight from other walks of life in other airlines in other countries. They do not. That's a fact and can't be argued with.
So as per my previous post: go and start lobbying that despicably corrupt DGCA for the training and rights you are supposed to receive! Or, have none of you worked it out yet? How many pockets are being lined by the recruitment agencies? How many DGCA officials, AI officials, etc are on the take? (I heard of a certain AI head of training who just purchased 6, I think, apartments for $250k each. His wife happens to be head of ops and recruitment. The other snake in cohorts in charge of expats also seems to be doing exceptionally well for himself!)
As soon as you can see the barriers as they are AND are able to do something about it then not too much will change.
So, when / if you do get your "birth right" job and are meant to be in the sim for an 8 am start (7 am briefing) but the instructor decides to arrive at 8.45 am, has a coffee and talks crap.....when you ask what profile you are doing and he says "I don't know. What do you want to do?" and when you see your DGCA stamped instrument renewal already completed before you walk in yet do almost none of what has been pre-ticked off, will you question the standard of training you are receiving? HELL NO! You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.
Would I have been the same? Don't know. I hope not. I was lucky to have been trained in an uncompromising system where fail meant fail, where opening my wallet to turn a fail into a pass would have meant never flying again. After all, that TRE was really only protecting my own life and that of the public.
The expats become so angry for their own reasons, alien to the locals. The expats have the hindsight of working at airlines where stringent standards were maintained, where bribery and corruption is not the norm, where an FO could speak up against a Capt and not be belittled or risk being fired.... They are not used to flying with FO's who are unable to hand fly and aircraft, plan a 3:1 decent profile, fly a raw data approach in Cat I min conditions and 20-25 kts x-wind. So, when they see and hear and experience first hand arrogant brats saying that they are just as qualified to do their job, they get angry.
Many came from doing it "tough". Yes, that involved cleaning aircraft, sweeping the hangar, cleaning the cabin of their 4,6, 19, etc seater... (including the vomit), doing their own flight plans from scratch, weather, etc without the aid of the internet. It taught (us) so much from the ground up. We learnt through mistakes, by getting a call from ATC as to "where do you really want to go?" due an incorrect flight plan, etc. That was part of the "apprenticeship" I suppose. After 1000 hrs on a C210 you might get lucky and fly a light twin, then after 500 hrs PIC of that light twin and with perhaps 2500 hrs total you'll get a job on a turbo prop.
Now, ask me would I like to do it all again if I were offered a 777 FO slot straight from flying school? HELL NO! I too would jump at it!
BUT! What I would EXPECT would be to be trained to the standard required. That DOES NOT happen from what I witnessed. In any decent and professional airline a pilot that crashes the sim, not once but twice, is suspended and given extra training. The training dept are called in to see how did they let this pilot down. If the pilot cannot be bought up to speed he/she is let go. For his/her safety AND that of the public. This is NOT the case at AI! I have the evidence to support that! In the same example the said pilot was given a check0ride to DXB 2 days later, his "batch mate" passed him and I was reprimanded and told to change my review.
So, that is why the expats get angry when they hear brats like yours truly (above my post) believe it is their God-given right to pilot these aircraft and to hell with standards and expertise. They don't want to look elsewhere for a job flying. As one father told me with 2 children out of work with CPL's when I asked if his kids had sort employment as a instructor or anything else in GA such as freight or meat bombing (parachute ops), "They shouldn't have to fly a piston aircraft!!"
Now, the locals are angry as they believe the expats are occupying the seats they should be in. In some ways, they are right. But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.
Those talents MUST be taught to them since for whatever reason they are unable / incapable of getting that experience as (we) once had to. So they see an expat bad mouth a local "250 hr wonder" and react angrilly. A natural instinct. The expats are just as guilty at not seeing the cause of this FO's inabilities as they are themselves. The SYSTEM that is supposed to teach, nurture and train them into competent heavy jet transport pilots has failed them! And they know no better. Again, the expats have the privilege of hindsight from other walks of life in other airlines in other countries. They do not. That's a fact and can't be argued with.
So as per my previous post: go and start lobbying that despicably corrupt DGCA for the training and rights you are supposed to receive! Or, have none of you worked it out yet? How many pockets are being lined by the recruitment agencies? How many DGCA officials, AI officials, etc are on the take? (I heard of a certain AI head of training who just purchased 6, I think, apartments for $250k each. His wife happens to be head of ops and recruitment. The other snake in cohorts in charge of expats also seems to be doing exceptionally well for himself!)
As soon as you can see the barriers as they are AND are able to do something about it then not too much will change.
So, when / if you do get your "birth right" job and are meant to be in the sim for an 8 am start (7 am briefing) but the instructor decides to arrive at 8.45 am, has a coffee and talks crap.....when you ask what profile you are doing and he says "I don't know. What do you want to do?" and when you see your DGCA stamped instrument renewal already completed before you walk in yet do almost none of what has been pre-ticked off, will you question the standard of training you are receiving? HELL NO! You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.
Would I have been the same? Don't know. I hope not. I was lucky to have been trained in an uncompromising system where fail meant fail, where opening my wallet to turn a fail into a pass would have meant never flying again. After all, that TRE was really only protecting my own life and that of the public.