I’ll stand by every word I typed. However, using your poetic license to voluntarily highlight certain words in bold that I did not in order to press your opinions is not welcomed. It’s quite cheap really.
I have never meant to paint every unemployed or “250 hr wonder” in India as a spoilt brat. My words are selective to those who sit at home, day after day, who whinge, complain on forums like this who haven’t the strength of character to get off their lazy and conceited ar$se to search for any job in aviation, any job to fly an aircraft anywhere. Those who are continually studying to better themselves and who have hit the road to find employment anywhere in order to build their hours and start their long road of gaining experience have only my utmost respect and sympathies.
Now BIAS? I am as biased as is the person who goes to self publicized restaurant and is sent to hospital with severe food poisoning, who reports this to proper authorities and then goes on the advise all his or friends to never go to that restaurant again. But then sits back to see this same restaurant and its employees cheerfully boasting about how their greatest in standards and hygiene is beyond question. Biased, then in this case (in my case) I’ll plead guilty.
Bias? Against those who claim that correct and strict RT is not needed, against those who cannot fly an aircraft without the use of AP, FD's or AT, against those who believe and advocate that you only have to be of average skill and knowledge to fly a sophisticated heavy jet transport, against those who abuse the FO or the FA's, who smoke in the cockpit, who violate SOPs by matter of arrogant habit, against those who live by a corrupt system promoting low and dangerous standards..... I AM GUILTY. And damn proud to be too. (And I refer to ALL sectors and nationalities for those about to try the pathetic role to claim racism, as is so often the case here).
You want expats to understand, respect and appreciate “The socio-economic conditions in India will guarantee that a working pilot will not get a tough initial career. This doesn't mean that there will be no good pilots in India.”
The tough tasks you speak are and still will be VERY tough! To pack your bags and drive continuously for 3 or 4 days (as I know pilots in Australia do, eg Sydney to Kununurra!) to sleep in their car, to bath and shower by the roadside, to then don suit and tie, CV in hand to ask for job in a dirty and dusty hangar, to be told “No”, so hence drive another 12 or so hours to the next outback GA establishment. Yes, they leave family behind, girlfriends/boyfriends behind, a potential job and Daddy’s firm in order to follow unquestioned passion and vocation. Some look toward Papua New Guinea and others Africa. They arrive with uniform in hand, log book in briefcase and Davies “Handling the Big Jets” under their arm.
No, as has been pointed out to you already, you are ill informed and ill educated in the GA scene in countries like Australia, NZ, the US or Africa. These pilots are almost always paid for flight time only. Cleaning the aircraft, sweeping the hangers, refueling your own aircraft are all part of the job, and if you do not do it there are 100’s of fresh CPL holders who have made the same trek waiting outside that hangar to do what you say you “don’t have to” because with a fresh CPL such tasks are below me!
I know of 2 x colleagues sons who have swept hangers, assisted in the office and general maintenance hangers for FREE in the pure hope that they’ll be in the right place and the right time for the job. They are praying that the most senior pilot on the Chieftan or C404 gets that SECOND OFFICER job at QF, ANZ or CX so he can be the one to replace him, starting on a C172 or C210. In the evenings he/she works at the local bar, drives taxis or takes tourists on mining tours in other spare time. I heard of a pilot who arrived at a hangar, was told there was no job and so began the journey to the next township. 2 hours down the road he was called by the CP and told he had a charter that afternoon. Could he make it in time? (Rare, but it does happen! Time and place.)
Open your eyes and read the Dunnunda & Godzone forums, or those covering the GA scene in Africa and PNG. When you read what these pilots do to gain experience, to better themselves to be more competitive for a job in 2 or 3 or 4 years time then perhaps my opinion of arrogant little brats not having the spine to do such things may be, if but only slightly, warranted. Instead you comment on matters you no nothing about.
So excuse me if the Indian pilot hasn’t the integrity to respect the expat pilot who can park and taxi his own aircraft without a wing-walker, who is able to safely refuel a light aircraft, who can tell you in great detail about Frise Ailerons, about a variable incidence elevator, about trim tab positioning and usage, about vortex generators, sweep, dihedral vs anhedral, about every antenna, receiver, transmitter and wire placed on, beside or on top of the fuselage: all borne out of cleaning and polishing an aircraft and learning as they go.
So, your example of Pilot A vs Pilot B bears no water with me. (And please, stop calling a child who once did a circuit in a C152 solo and logged 0.3 of a flight hour under the “Command” section of a log book as “Captain”). So, I’ll answer your question with a question: Who would rather employ? Pilot X or showed initiative, integrity, passion and dedication to his career, who went out and hunted for means and ways to further their aviation credentials by way of flying experience and education, or the Pilot Y who sat and b!tched day in and day out on PPRuNe about not walking straight into a heavy jet transport? Who despise those expats with 25000 hrs for taking the job they can do with a brand new CPL and 200 hrs! What’s wrong with getting off your lazing and arrogant, spoilt tails and looking for work to better your credentials and then the very second an interview comes you time off to attend it? That’s the way it is almost always done in many, many, many other countries in the world. Oh! Excuse me, I forgot: “He / she should have to!!!”
Shanx, you raise the point this is just the way it is in Indian aviation; that credentials, experience and integrity bear no weight in job placement? I cannot argue with you as I have no foundation point to. However, I find this very hard to believe.
So, the father who spent $100k USD and appears to be out of pocket? HA!!! Welcome to aviation!!!!!! Compared to colleagues of mine from United, etc, this guy has gotten off lightly! Why doesn’t he kick his kids up the backside, demand they get out and better their flying experience and credentials? Nah…. Again, “they shouldn’t have to.” So, who’s the damn fool?
The term INCAPABLE. I used it in reference to the fact that the GA scene in India is not as established as it is in other parts of the world. If my reference inferred differently then I apolgise, but that is what I meant. But, if this is the case, then what’s wrong with looking at Africa or PNG, or Sth East Asia? Having said that I will bet that very few kids have even tried the GA circuit in India to look for work.
As a TRE I pride myself on assessments based purely on the regulatory authority’s standards, the airline’s SOPs and the candidate’s adherence to those standards. For you to suggest otherwise is insulting in the extreme. I will pass or fail a pilot purely on those terms and I do not care if he is my “batch mate” my brother, my uncle, my best friend’s father. That attitude was not welcomed at AI.
My credentials outside of flying stem from 2 x tertiary degrees in the field of Aviation (science and psychology divisions). I am a certified CRM instructor and facilitator recognized in both the FAA and JAA. Am not going to annoy the moderators of this forum and cut ‘n paste my papers, research or programs to do with CRM and HF. Your ability to do so does not bear any weight other then a pretty pyramid table. Your credentials to do so are, well, boring. (While still valid they are also very old and common knowledge in the CRM field, by the way. If you want to research the latest developments in CRM start studying the fields of CRM/TER).
“That I can fly the 777 raw data within +-50 feet is not going to get me job, what is going to get me job is the corrupt AI Training Head, may be he needs money to furnish the new apartments, may be he can make good use of the 40k USD I have in my savings account.” [Jimmygill]
Well, that just about sums it all up for “Incredible” India and aviation! What a sad, sad, sad and pitiful indictment on both yourself and profession. Why not cease lobbying the government and DGCA to get rid of expats and / or to not bother about training inexperienced pilots to the required standards?? Instead, how about set a petition to the ICAO (I’m sure you’ll get many thousands of signatures) for a recognized Indian ACBL (Airline Career Bribed License). It appears that is all you both want and need, coming from your words.
After all, as you state: “we may have to forgo morality” [Jimmygill]
Conscience? Integrity? Honor? Airmanship? Professionalism?
To not be able to handle an aircraft +/- 50 ft is a FAIL. If you go beneath an MSA, MDA or DDH by 1 ft under IMC then it is a FAIL! Sorry to have to quote the minimum instrument rating knowledge to you, but you don’t seem to know or care. Flying 50 ft high or low on an ILS? Yeah, real safe! Add cold weather to that and you just turned even more deadly.
Jimmygill, I thought better of you.
So, that’s me signing off from yet another thread. Arguing against imbecilia, of ignorance, against people without the slightest hint of integrity or knowledge to support an opinion has turned boring and beneath the standards of airmanship that I would choose to employ. My high horse and I’ll ride it.
See ya kiddies! Be lucky!!! Because Safety isn’t really a concern of yours.
For those with the integrity, and passion to follow their dream and vocation then I wish you all the very best. My posts have only ever meant to highlight the despicable scene and standards at airlines like AI and raise some attention to them, as well as to argue against ill informed agendas and those supporting these standards. Never against yourselves. Your own conscience will tell you that.
Shun mediocrity and work hard to achieve your goals. You’ll have to but the rewards are worth it.
Last edited by TopTup; 16th Apr 2010 at 11:49.