DGCA Expat Phase-Out
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well, talking to one of my colleagues on a flight yesterday i just learned that Air India started a batch of 250 hrs experience pilots for the 777!!! yup fresh out of C-152 and now RHS of a 777, he vouched for it cos his neice is one of the inductees... apparently they were selected on the 737's but on the day of ground school they were notified of the change.. now that's called a jump start on a career
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@carb-heat
I heard something similar recently from a friend of mine in AI, but those 250 hour cadets that you talk about are not going to be F/Os soon.
Once they're finished with training, they would be released as Second Officers on long hauls for a period of time before going for further training for FO position.
Some of the Airlines like EVA, Cathay, ANA also have hired fresh 250 hours pilots and inducted them as Second Officers or Relief/Cruise FOs for long haul flights.
I could be wrong though.
I heard something similar recently from a friend of mine in AI, but those 250 hour cadets that you talk about are not going to be F/Os soon.
Once they're finished with training, they would be released as Second Officers on long hauls for a period of time before going for further training for FO position.
Some of the Airlines like EVA, Cathay, ANA also have hired fresh 250 hours pilots and inducted them as Second Officers or Relief/Cruise FOs for long haul flights.
I could be wrong though.
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As an expat captain flying close to 100 hours almost every month here in India, I have to say that there would not be a lot of 'smoking holes in the ground' if all the expats were sent home, far from it.
More likely there would be a large number of aircraft parked and a load of otherwise gainfully employed Indian F/Os hanging around on the ground waiting for their 10 or 15 hours of flying they would get each month with the remaining captains.
This would mean that it would take much much longer for them to get the required experience to upgrade, much longer for airlines to induct new aircraft into their fleets and much longer for unemployed local pilots to get hired.
All captains both local and expat are working hard to keep the nations fleet flying and do absolutely nothing to slow down any local pilots career. We expats know we are not here forever and that as soon as there is an Indian available to replace us we will be looking for another contract.
The fact remains that every captain needs a copilot to fly with. Far from slowing down any Indians career the expats are speeding it up! This will continue to be the case until the number of experienced local pilots increases. It might take one year or two or three depending on the economic situation, airline expansion plans and so on.
At the end of the day, if you're an unemployed Indian pilot don't kid yourself that the expats are to blame for your situation, it's simply not true.
More likely there would be a large number of aircraft parked and a load of otherwise gainfully employed Indian F/Os hanging around on the ground waiting for their 10 or 15 hours of flying they would get each month with the remaining captains.
This would mean that it would take much much longer for them to get the required experience to upgrade, much longer for airlines to induct new aircraft into their fleets and much longer for unemployed local pilots to get hired.
All captains both local and expat are working hard to keep the nations fleet flying and do absolutely nothing to slow down any local pilots career. We expats know we are not here forever and that as soon as there is an Indian available to replace us we will be looking for another contract.
The fact remains that every captain needs a copilot to fly with. Far from slowing down any Indians career the expats are speeding it up! This will continue to be the case until the number of experienced local pilots increases. It might take one year or two or three depending on the economic situation, airline expansion plans and so on.
At the end of the day, if you're an unemployed Indian pilot don't kid yourself that the expats are to blame for your situation, it's simply not true.
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@152wiseguy, a very good post indeed, and the arguments you give are exactly the arguments which the airliner will put forward when they want to extend the expat phase out deadlines.
Les start with these two scenarios..
A. 5 hrs flight from Delhi to Bangkok
B. 1 hr FF Simulator Session
Which one is more important from the point of view of enhancing skills for a first/officer?
I am inclined to believe that if an airline has a fleet being flown by less experienced pilots, the airline must at the same time make these pilots spend more time in training facilities. And hence must have access to more flight simulators, those who know how much these simulators cost know exactly why airlines will not want to invest in them.
When the airline hires an expat, they effectively shelve into the future the need for increased flight simulator training.
If an expat in one year of his contract can save 50 sessions on simulator, the sessions which ought have been spent in training the less experience pilots, he has saved the airliner a lot of money. 50 sessions may cost the airlines anywhere around 100-200k USD. The airlines have sound economic reasons to hire expats even at higher salaries than counter part locals.
Had the airliners chosen to train the locals and upgrading them to command they will enter a dicey situation. After the command upgrade, the newly released captain is a highly mobile and highly valuable asset. His salary must go-up else he will shift to mid-east or far-east. Having expats ensures that this will be delayed. And the salaries will stay where they are. Plus, the local pilots will have less bargaining power as they may not be able to launch any effective industrial action when a sizeable number of expats are present.
Ever wondered what could explain the 6 month notice period requirement for airline pilots in India. While the airline can fire them with just 1 months notice. This is a non-market way to restrict the mobility of pilots and curtail the attrition rates.
So having the expats provides for a long term downward pressure on salaries. The situation is not much different from IT Skill forces working in USA, had the USA government not imposed a lower limit on the salaries of expats with IT skill sets, the salaries of such locals would have gone down, and consequently less and less locals will be motivated to learn IT and hence giving rise to a shortage of IT skills in local population, which eventually will be replaced by the expats from China, India, Eastern Europe or anywhere they are.
Quiet agreeable.
Safety is not in whether the PIC has 2500 hrs or 3000 hrs, its more a function of how many PICs are flying who at some point or other had reported drunk for flying and had just been given a 3 month suspension. Reporting drunk for flying is not just unprofessional but entirely stupid. Its a pointer to the pilots ground decision making (GDM), if he has showed that he cannot be trusted for a sound GDM expecting good ADM is just wishful thinking.
Safety depends on what was done to the Air-India pilot who rolled for takeoff without clearance in Bombay, or the fate of the Jet Airways check pilot who pulled the circuit breaker.
At the same time how many first officers are able to clock close to 100 hrs every month. The annual average is around varies from 600 - 800 hrs for different airlines.
The aircrafts make money for the airliner owners, a considerable fraction of the airlines in India are fully owned or are with majority stakes of individuals. These individuals will make sure that their fleet is not grounded. If they cannot utilise expats, they will spend on training the locals. Its just a matter of regulatory compliance. I can assure you the airliners will not let the aircrafts stay parked on tarmac, two of the biggest burdens for any business are 'idle capital' and 'relocating human capital'. If economic factors can cause a movement in 'human capital' across the oceans the same factor can push the 'idle aircraft' into flight. Its a just a matter of which factor is more powerful and what regulatory avenues are available.
I have just explained above what this means instead. Required experienced can be replaced by better (costlier) training airliners will not resort to costlier training unless forced to by either the insurer or the regulator.
Its true expats are not to blame for the situation, and I agree to this, it is the DGCA and the Airliners which have postponed the expat phaseout deadlines, and they are to be blamed.
But overall, I do welcome your post, only that I differ from the content, and once I have the actual statistics, we will be able to throw more light on which of our views are closer to reality, it may be that you are closer to reality, or may be I am closer to reality. But the best way to find out is to work the problem with an open mind.
Les start with these two scenarios..
A. 5 hrs flight from Delhi to Bangkok
B. 1 hr FF Simulator Session
Which one is more important from the point of view of enhancing skills for a first/officer?
I am inclined to believe that if an airline has a fleet being flown by less experienced pilots, the airline must at the same time make these pilots spend more time in training facilities. And hence must have access to more flight simulators, those who know how much these simulators cost know exactly why airlines will not want to invest in them.
When the airline hires an expat, they effectively shelve into the future the need for increased flight simulator training.
If an expat in one year of his contract can save 50 sessions on simulator, the sessions which ought have been spent in training the less experience pilots, he has saved the airliner a lot of money. 50 sessions may cost the airlines anywhere around 100-200k USD. The airlines have sound economic reasons to hire expats even at higher salaries than counter part locals.
Had the airliners chosen to train the locals and upgrading them to command they will enter a dicey situation. After the command upgrade, the newly released captain is a highly mobile and highly valuable asset. His salary must go-up else he will shift to mid-east or far-east. Having expats ensures that this will be delayed. And the salaries will stay where they are. Plus, the local pilots will have less bargaining power as they may not be able to launch any effective industrial action when a sizeable number of expats are present.
Ever wondered what could explain the 6 month notice period requirement for airline pilots in India. While the airline can fire them with just 1 months notice. This is a non-market way to restrict the mobility of pilots and curtail the attrition rates.
So having the expats provides for a long term downward pressure on salaries. The situation is not much different from IT Skill forces working in USA, had the USA government not imposed a lower limit on the salaries of expats with IT skill sets, the salaries of such locals would have gone down, and consequently less and less locals will be motivated to learn IT and hence giving rise to a shortage of IT skills in local population, which eventually will be replaced by the expats from China, India, Eastern Europe or anywhere they are.
As an expat captain flying close to 100 hours almost every month here in India, I have to say that there would not be a lot of 'smoking holes in the ground' if all the expats were sent home, far from it.
Safety is not in whether the PIC has 2500 hrs or 3000 hrs, its more a function of how many PICs are flying who at some point or other had reported drunk for flying and had just been given a 3 month suspension. Reporting drunk for flying is not just unprofessional but entirely stupid. Its a pointer to the pilots ground decision making (GDM), if he has showed that he cannot be trusted for a sound GDM expecting good ADM is just wishful thinking.
Safety depends on what was done to the Air-India pilot who rolled for takeoff without clearance in Bombay, or the fate of the Jet Airways check pilot who pulled the circuit breaker.
At the same time how many first officers are able to clock close to 100 hrs every month. The annual average is around varies from 600 - 800 hrs for different airlines.
More likely there would be a large number of aircraft parked and a load of otherwise gainfully employed Indian F/Os hanging around on the ground waiting for their 10 or 15 hours of flying they would get each month with the remaining captains.
This would mean that it would take much much longer for them to get the required experience to upgrade, much longer for airlines to induct new aircraft into their fleets and much longer for unemployed local pilots to get hired.
The fact remains that every captain needs a copilot to fly with. Far from slowing down any Indians career the expats are speeding it up! This will continue to be the case until the number of experienced local pilots increases. It might take one year or two or three depending on the economic situation, airline expansion plans and so on.
At the end of the day, if you're an unemployed Indian pilot don't kid yourself that the expats are to blame for your situation, it's simply not true.
At the end of the day, if you're an unemployed Indian pilot don't kid yourself that the expats are to blame for your situation, it's simply not true.
But overall, I do welcome your post, only that I differ from the content, and once I have the actual statistics, we will be able to throw more light on which of our views are closer to reality, it may be that you are closer to reality, or may be I am closer to reality. But the best way to find out is to work the problem with an open mind.
Last edited by jimmygill; 10th Mar 2010 at 08:21.
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Privateer01 - nice post. Well written, succinct and accurate.
Jimmygill - as always interesting to read your thoughts. While I will disagree with many points, that is my opinion and does not make your point of view any less valid.
Carb-Heat - I can assure that you are some time off the mark. 185-220 hr pilots are occupying a control seat during t/o and landing in B777's at AI. They have done so for some time now. The expat FO's who were at AI all left (RAN !!!) at their first opportunity as they were placed as cruise relief to them. The 2500 to 12,500 hrs they had could not hold up to a prejudicial Cmdr.
Jimmygill, this is one issue I respectfully disagree with. Making a poor "GDM" by turning up drunk is not "unprofessional" or "stupid", it is bloody-well illegal, incomprehensibly negligent and those guilty MUST be FIRED and license suspended as a MINIMUM until they can prove that disgracefully poor "GDM" can never happen again. Not shaving or turning up to work in an untidy uniform, smoking in the cockpit, etc is "unprofessional". Turning up drunk goes waaaay beyond that.
Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. By all means remove the expats from India WHEN the local pilots can match the same level of experience, safety and skill. That does not mean that fraudulently completed simulator evaluations, fraudulently completed performance reviews, fraudulently completed route checks, etc, etc are put in place to "pretend" to fill the void. The number of pilots (Cmdrs or FO's) who either failed sim checks but were put on route checks to DXB to have that previous evaluation "hidden" was and perhaps still is unbelievable. Or when I as TRE was ORDERED to change an evaluation to keep a Cmdr on line..... (for the record, I refused and resigned not long after - see past posts).
Yes, remove all expats from Indian Aviation and force the local standard, incomprehensible corruption and low standards rise from the ashes where they lay at present. Bit please don't whine if the British government seek to remove / not renew visas for all Indian doctors from its shores, as they proposed not too long ago. In the eyes of many when I was a TRE at at AI, an FO with a CPL is "qualified" to fly a heavy jet. So too then is a 1 day medical school graduate also "qualified" to perform surgery. The have that piece of paper on the wall as do the "experienced" doctors don't they? Short sighted and naiive in the greatest of the description.
I sincerely hope, as I have always advocated, that as many national pilots as possible should be employed over expats. I for one would not like to see a compatriot of mine out of work due to labor being imported from elsewhere. BUT IF (!!!!) that labor could not offer the same level of safety and professionalism then unfortunately that is what must happen. In the mean time, the unemployed locals MUST BE shown every opportunity to be trained and tutored at the highest and most efficient level.
Is that happening? I hope those unemployed CPL holders are shown that right and opportunity, and in the mean time seek any flying job they can get and not sit at home expecting to be given a job.
Jimmygill - as always interesting to read your thoughts. While I will disagree with many points, that is my opinion and does not make your point of view any less valid.
Carb-Heat - I can assure that you are some time off the mark. 185-220 hr pilots are occupying a control seat during t/o and landing in B777's at AI. They have done so for some time now. The expat FO's who were at AI all left (RAN !!!) at their first opportunity as they were placed as cruise relief to them. The 2500 to 12,500 hrs they had could not hold up to a prejudicial Cmdr.
Jimmygill, this is one issue I respectfully disagree with. Making a poor "GDM" by turning up drunk is not "unprofessional" or "stupid", it is bloody-well illegal, incomprehensibly negligent and those guilty MUST be FIRED and license suspended as a MINIMUM until they can prove that disgracefully poor "GDM" can never happen again. Not shaving or turning up to work in an untidy uniform, smoking in the cockpit, etc is "unprofessional". Turning up drunk goes waaaay beyond that.
Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. By all means remove the expats from India WHEN the local pilots can match the same level of experience, safety and skill. That does not mean that fraudulently completed simulator evaluations, fraudulently completed performance reviews, fraudulently completed route checks, etc, etc are put in place to "pretend" to fill the void. The number of pilots (Cmdrs or FO's) who either failed sim checks but were put on route checks to DXB to have that previous evaluation "hidden" was and perhaps still is unbelievable. Or when I as TRE was ORDERED to change an evaluation to keep a Cmdr on line..... (for the record, I refused and resigned not long after - see past posts).
Yes, remove all expats from Indian Aviation and force the local standard, incomprehensible corruption and low standards rise from the ashes where they lay at present. Bit please don't whine if the British government seek to remove / not renew visas for all Indian doctors from its shores, as they proposed not too long ago. In the eyes of many when I was a TRE at at AI, an FO with a CPL is "qualified" to fly a heavy jet. So too then is a 1 day medical school graduate also "qualified" to perform surgery. The have that piece of paper on the wall as do the "experienced" doctors don't they? Short sighted and naiive in the greatest of the description.
I sincerely hope, as I have always advocated, that as many national pilots as possible should be employed over expats. I for one would not like to see a compatriot of mine out of work due to labor being imported from elsewhere. BUT IF (!!!!) that labor could not offer the same level of safety and professionalism then unfortunately that is what must happen. In the mean time, the unemployed locals MUST BE shown every opportunity to be trained and tutored at the highest and most efficient level.
Is that happening? I hope those unemployed CPL holders are shown that right and opportunity, and in the mean time seek any flying job they can get and not sit at home expecting to be given a job.
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Yes Top Tup, the opportunities are being given. In the company where I am flying at least, they are upgrading local pilots as fast as is physically possible. Over the past few months about 3-4 local pilots have been released every month as commanders and approximately the same number of expat line captains have been sent home each month.
In fact recently, as soon as a co-pilot has their atpl in their hand (sooner in some cases) they have been given a command assessment. I would say that there is nowhere in the world right now where pilots are given the responsibility of commanding an airliner as quickly as in India.
The only problem is that there is now a huge backlog of line training due to the lack of TRI/TRE qualified pilots available. More expats anyone?
In fact recently, as soon as a co-pilot has their atpl in their hand (sooner in some cases) they have been given a command assessment. I would say that there is nowhere in the world right now where pilots are given the responsibility of commanding an airliner as quickly as in India.
The only problem is that there is now a huge backlog of line training due to the lack of TRI/TRE qualified pilots available. More expats anyone?
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You know what really amazes me about this forum? Well...A few things actually. First of all, that many of the Indians posting and those that have created the political pressure to expel expat pilots in India are low time pilots. Guys, you country is having an economic downturn just like the rest of the world. Just because you spent x number of lachs on your training does not guarantee you a job. It also takes more than six months to upgrade on heavy equipment. This is probably an insurance and common sense requirement. No one owes you anything in this world. I was going to say that "no one owes you s@#t" but I remembered how sensitive you are...But I digress. There are thousands of low time pilots sitting around without jobs. Expat pilots are helping the Indian aviation industry to develop so that you may have jobs in the future. You don't have a job now because the economy sucks and no one saw the bubble about to burst. In a few years everyone will be scrambling to hire pilots again and this will be a moot post. Expat pilots are not to blame and should in fact be welcomed and utilized for their knowledge and experience.
The second thing that amazes me about this post is that a majority of expat pilots that I have met on the subcontinent are Americans or Britons. Hmmm, how many people of Indian descent call either the US or Great Britain home? Millions...They are doctors, shopkeepers, lawyers, salesmen, engineers, pilots, dentists, etc, etc. The west has opened their doors to Indians for many years and will continue to do so. I find this anti-western pilot attitude to be xenophobic, ignorant, ungrateful and spiteful. So a few Western pilots are needed to train and staff a new fleet in a developing aviation industry and you're up in arms and calling for their expulsion? How many Indians are training the next batch of PHD candidates at Western universities? Just look at a math department, it's most of the professorship.
I expected more from a culture that prides itself on knowledge, karma and enlightenment. Now I realize that most of these posts are the result of misguided anger from a youthful and from my experience, spoiled, group. For the record, I have been an expat pilot in India, albeit not on heavy equipment. My mother is from India(not of Indian descent) and I still vacation in "Incredible India" when the visa process doesn't scare me away. I miss my tenure there and hope to return one day to work again. I helped to train/mentor several pilots to one day be captains themselves. I keep in contact with all of them and only wish them the best in their careers. Because of me, they were able to safely gain experience, knowledge and a paycheck. Oh, and I miss my Royal Enfield, chipatis and street food! Take care guys, we're not out to get you. I would like to shake hands and have a Kingfisher with all of you should our paths cross.
The second thing that amazes me about this post is that a majority of expat pilots that I have met on the subcontinent are Americans or Britons. Hmmm, how many people of Indian descent call either the US or Great Britain home? Millions...They are doctors, shopkeepers, lawyers, salesmen, engineers, pilots, dentists, etc, etc. The west has opened their doors to Indians for many years and will continue to do so. I find this anti-western pilot attitude to be xenophobic, ignorant, ungrateful and spiteful. So a few Western pilots are needed to train and staff a new fleet in a developing aviation industry and you're up in arms and calling for their expulsion? How many Indians are training the next batch of PHD candidates at Western universities? Just look at a math department, it's most of the professorship.
I expected more from a culture that prides itself on knowledge, karma and enlightenment. Now I realize that most of these posts are the result of misguided anger from a youthful and from my experience, spoiled, group. For the record, I have been an expat pilot in India, albeit not on heavy equipment. My mother is from India(not of Indian descent) and I still vacation in "Incredible India" when the visa process doesn't scare me away. I miss my tenure there and hope to return one day to work again. I helped to train/mentor several pilots to one day be captains themselves. I keep in contact with all of them and only wish them the best in their careers. Because of me, they were able to safely gain experience, knowledge and a paycheck. Oh, and I miss my Royal Enfield, chipatis and street food! Take care guys, we're not out to get you. I would like to shake hands and have a Kingfisher with all of you should our paths cross.
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You know what really amazes me about this forum? Well...A few things actually. First of all, that many of the Indians posting and those that have created the political pressure to expel expat pilots in India are low time pilots. Guys, you country is having an economic downturn just like the rest of the world. Just because you spent x number of lachs on your training does not guarantee you a job.
Its a myth to say that Indian economy is in a downturn. India's GDP has been growing. Its just that rate of growth has gown down, and that too from 8% to to 6%.
In aviation parlance the aircraft is still climbing even though at a reduced rate of climb. Of course the public hysteria about recession has been used by several to eek out favorable policies from the government.
You are right just because one has spent x number of lacs in training one may not get a job, we must also build a political pressure to phase-out expats over a period of term.
It also takes more than six months to upgrade on heavy equipment. This is probably an insurance and common sense requirement. No one owes you anything in this world. I was going to say that "no one owes you s@#t" but I remembered how sensitive you are...But I digress. There are thousands of low time pilots sitting around without jobs.
"No one owes us any ****." And thats precisely why we have to go and get it. All will agree
agree that the first step in getting that is a CPL and many of us have got it. The second step is NOT "wait home till an economic turn-around"
Expat pilots are helping the Indian aviation industry to develop so that you may have jobs in the future.
This is one of the most preposterous argument, especially when industry growth rate is around 10%. If the industry is nascent and poised for explosive growth rates I can understand the need for expats. But with almost 2 years of stagnation and ensuing cut in capacity, its hard to justify expats-helping-develop-aviation-in-India argument.
You don't have a job now because the economy sucks and no one saw the bubble about to burst. In a few years everyone will be scrambling to hire pilots again and this will be a moot post.
If none saw the bubble, how can anyone be sure about scramble-to-hire-pilots? Is it just based on blind optimism and considerate bonhomie?
Expat pilots are not to blame and should in fact be welcomed and utilized for their knowledge and experience.
So I guess we should hire expats as contract synthetic instructors, because they are the ones who are sharing the knowledge and experience in a more meaningful, efficient and multiplicative manner.
The second thing that amazes me about this post is that a majority of expat pilots that I have met on the subcontinent are Americans or Britons. Hmmm, how many people of Indian descent call either the US or Great Britain home? Millions...They are doctors, shopkeepers, lawyers, salesmen, engineers, pilots, dentists, etc, etc. The west has opened their doors to Indians for many years and will continue to do so. I find this anti-western pilot attitude to be xenophobic, ignorant, ungrateful and spiteful. So a few Western pilots are needed to train and staff a new fleet in a developing aviation industry and you're up in arms and calling for their expulsion? How many Indians are training the next batch of PHD candidates at Western universities? Just look at a math department, it's most of the professorship.
But I guess you can get me only that job in USA/UK which 'you' need and not which I want, irrespective of my qualifications.
I neither hate nor am afraid of foreigners, but I won't like any foreigner to take my job. Period. If you were an Indian national, doesn't matter if you were of USA/UK origin I will not mind. And I can say that for a majority of my compatriots, they are not xenophobic.
If a Briton wants to do a PhD in mathematics and he can't get in, because Oxford has been too busy taking in foreigners, I will not mind at all if that Briton writes to her MP.
I expected more from a culture that prides itself on knowledge, karma and enlightenment. Now I realize that most of these posts are the result of misguided anger from a youthful and from my experience, spoiled, group.
For the record, I have been an expat pilot in India, albeit not on heavy equipment. My mother is from India(not of Indian descent) and I still vacation in "Incredible India" when the visa process doesn't scare me away. I miss my tenure there and hope to return one day to work again. I helped to train/mentor several pilots to one day be captains themselves. I keep in contact with all of them and only wish them the best in their careers. Because of me, they were able to safely gain experience, knowledge and a paycheck. Oh, and I miss my Royal Enfield, chipatis and street food! Take care guys, we're not out to get you. I would like to shake hands and
You are welcome to tour here, but I will not welcome you to work as a pilot, NOT because I am a spoiled brat, but simply because there is no reciprocity.
If an american wants to gain experience as a flight instructor in USA, he can get a paying job in any of the thousands of schools there, but I on other hand will only be allowed to go for pay-to-fly f/o in USA. Is this what is called an open door?
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@privateer01
I am afraid sir, what you have stated above is a classic example of sheer ignorance of general aviation in India, and ab-initio flight training in particular.
There are a handful of flight schools and flying clubs in various Indian cities, BUT almost all of them indulge in all sorts of hideous and shady things like fake logging, over logging of flight time etc.
Please see this website ... :: Aviation Frauds ::
.. and this one ..Instructor told pilots to use pencils for log book entries, faked licences, say police
and this ..Your pilot may have bought his licence - India - The Times of India
.. some more .. Love in air, plane in river - dnaindia.com
You will get some idea of what really goes on in flight schools in India.
It is not uncommon to find students languishing in flight schools in India for months together and being stuck at the SPL (Student Pilot Licence) level with not more than 10-25 hours dual time logged in their logbooks. 90% of the time, half those hours would be fake. Also known as "paper flying" or "ghost hours" in India.
In some of the flying schools, it is impossible for a student to even get an "introductory flight" or even a joyride with the Chief Instructor unless he has spent a few months doing virtually NOTHING in the school other than smoking cigarettes, "beedis", sometimes weed and guzzling down alcohol to the gallons and philandering.
All the schools take a huge sum as UPFRONT payment from the student even before enrolling and thus, the student is literally held by his "b@lls" (sorry ladies), and there's absolutely NOTHING he/she can do about it.
Most of the schools themselves are located in remote small, godforsaken towns with barely any contact or communication or transportation with the rest of the country.
It is sometimes difficult to get cell phone network signals, internet connectivity ... HECK .. many of the places do not have bare minimum accommodation fit for a human being to survive.
The hostels/apartments STINK of urine and human faeces mixed with that of the animals living in the vicinity.
It is extremely difficult for even a guy to survive in these conditions, leave alone the average Indian girl who fears she might get r@ped by some hooligans in the near-by slums, her fellow trainees or some sexually frustrated CFI/school owner !!!!
(NO KIDDING)
In some schools, girls try to flirt and give sexual favours in return for "quick" course completion and paper work from the CFI, while guys give dope/scotch whiskey in big crates to the CFI for the same.
Also, as of now, a lot of these flying clubs have a few un airworthy aircraft parked in their ramps, with no flight instructors and sometimes no ground instructors also for months together.
Many are defunct. (Of course, their so called "Admissions" departments are NEVER defunct and always promptly attend any calls related to admissions and fee payment)
Trust me, none of what I have written above is exaggeration.
It is true night-marish experiences of many friends of mine who somehow got away from the "hell hole" they were in, and started afresh in schools in USA, Canada etc.
By training in the USA you deprived some poor Indian instructor of a Job.......
There are a handful of flight schools and flying clubs in various Indian cities, BUT almost all of them indulge in all sorts of hideous and shady things like fake logging, over logging of flight time etc.
Please see this website ... :: Aviation Frauds ::
.. and this one ..Instructor told pilots to use pencils for log book entries, faked licences, say police
and this ..Your pilot may have bought his licence - India - The Times of India
.. some more .. Love in air, plane in river - dnaindia.com
You will get some idea of what really goes on in flight schools in India.
It is not uncommon to find students languishing in flight schools in India for months together and being stuck at the SPL (Student Pilot Licence) level with not more than 10-25 hours dual time logged in their logbooks. 90% of the time, half those hours would be fake. Also known as "paper flying" or "ghost hours" in India.
In some of the flying schools, it is impossible for a student to even get an "introductory flight" or even a joyride with the Chief Instructor unless he has spent a few months doing virtually NOTHING in the school other than smoking cigarettes, "beedis", sometimes weed and guzzling down alcohol to the gallons and philandering.
All the schools take a huge sum as UPFRONT payment from the student even before enrolling and thus, the student is literally held by his "b@lls" (sorry ladies), and there's absolutely NOTHING he/she can do about it.
Most of the schools themselves are located in remote small, godforsaken towns with barely any contact or communication or transportation with the rest of the country.
It is sometimes difficult to get cell phone network signals, internet connectivity ... HECK .. many of the places do not have bare minimum accommodation fit for a human being to survive.
The hostels/apartments STINK of urine and human faeces mixed with that of the animals living in the vicinity.
It is extremely difficult for even a guy to survive in these conditions, leave alone the average Indian girl who fears she might get r@ped by some hooligans in the near-by slums, her fellow trainees or some sexually frustrated CFI/school owner !!!!
(NO KIDDING)
In some schools, girls try to flirt and give sexual favours in return for "quick" course completion and paper work from the CFI, while guys give dope/scotch whiskey in big crates to the CFI for the same.
Also, as of now, a lot of these flying clubs have a few un airworthy aircraft parked in their ramps, with no flight instructors and sometimes no ground instructors also for months together.
Many are defunct. (Of course, their so called "Admissions" departments are NEVER defunct and always promptly attend any calls related to admissions and fee payment)
Trust me, none of what I have written above is exaggeration.
It is true night-marish experiences of many friends of mine who somehow got away from the "hell hole" they were in, and started afresh in schools in USA, Canada etc.
Last edited by shanx; 3rd Apr 2010 at 20:57.
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Well....maybe Jimmy would like to start his political action there then.....
Clean up the flight schools = more qualified Indian pilots trained by indian pilots = no expats needed.
Sorry but the initial thought still stands.
Getting your tickets in the USA and then complaining about Expats in your homeland smacks of a double standard to me.
Clean up your own yard sort of thing.
Clean up the flight schools = more qualified Indian pilots trained by indian pilots = no expats needed.
Sorry but the initial thought still stands.
Getting your tickets in the USA and then complaining about Expats in your homeland smacks of a double standard to me.
Clean up your own yard sort of thing.
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itsbrokenagain,
I understand that was not directed to me, however, I still want a frank answer from you, to my question ...
With an FAA CPL, CFI, CFII, MEI ratings and roughly 260 hours TT, please do tell me where an Indian national can look for work in the current world scenario with those or similar qualifications ?
In the USA ?? NO. Nobody is willing to employ an alien.
When I wrote an email to a couple of well known flight school in the US regarding flight instructor or ground instructor positions, I got a curt reply saying "Sorry, due to the current situation in the USA, and due to security issues, we are unable to employ foreigners in any position in the aviation industry."
Oh yes .. a few flight schools have agreed to let me "work" as an instructor for free, just to build time on the condition that I pay for the first 50 hours of dual given time !
By the way, one school in Texas even agreed to pay me "unofficial" salary in cash PROVIDED I bring Indian students regularly to the school.
Do you really want me or any other Indian or foreigner to WORK FOR FREE or PAY TO FLY and deprive an American citizen a paying job because of that ?
Be fortunate that me and atleast 5 other Indians I know of have chosen NOT to do such a thing.
I am grateful to the country that gave me opportunity to train and get good education. If I am to work in the USA, I will do it only if it is LEGAL.
Sigh ! .. so any kind of work in USA is pretty much ruled out for the time being.
Working anywhere in the EU is ruled out. They want a JAA licence and a frozen ATPL as bare minimum and citizenship in any of the EU nations !
No charter companies or schools in the Middle East (UAE, Qatar, Saudi, etc) even responded to emails or faxes.
When I enquired on phone, they said they would hire me if I had a King Air rating with minimum 100 hours King Air time.
Now where on earth do I get that King Air Rating from ?
Ok .. fine .. I wont be an "armchair pilot" or wait for something to be served on platter or "pinned on to my tit"... so I'll pay more $$$ and get a King Air rating.
Now ... errr .. what about the 100 hours of King Air time ?
Ah ! .. there's the good old EAGLEJET in Miami, FL, USA. They cant sell me King Air time, but they are willing to sell me 300 or 500 hours of Beech 99 or B1900 time !
Awesome ! .. oh but wait ... it's only going to cost me another $25,000 !!!
Hmm ... No school in australia or New Zealand is interested in my FAA licences or FAA inctructor ratings. Two schools however said they might give me ground instructor positions and possibly flight instruction job in the future IF I could convert my FAA licences to a CASA CPL and pay for atleast 50 hours of PIC time to meet certain requirements !
Nah ! .. not interested .. I'll just keep my current temporary job (not in aviation) and be an "armchair" pilot for some more time till something happens in Indian aviation.
jimmygill, instead of waiting for the job to arrive on your doorstep and a pair of wings to be pinned to your tit, get off your pc and go get a job..
As expats we look for jobs everywhere and anywhere, why dont you also.... if you are really that qualified I see no reason why you cannot be employed somewhere in this big world we live in. Aviation is a global industry (hence you have papers from the FAA), so dont insulate yourself here in India.
As expats we look for jobs everywhere and anywhere, why dont you also.... if you are really that qualified I see no reason why you cannot be employed somewhere in this big world we live in. Aviation is a global industry (hence you have papers from the FAA), so dont insulate yourself here in India.
I understand that was not directed to me, however, I still want a frank answer from you, to my question ...
With an FAA CPL, CFI, CFII, MEI ratings and roughly 260 hours TT, please do tell me where an Indian national can look for work in the current world scenario with those or similar qualifications ?
In the USA ?? NO. Nobody is willing to employ an alien.
When I wrote an email to a couple of well known flight school in the US regarding flight instructor or ground instructor positions, I got a curt reply saying "Sorry, due to the current situation in the USA, and due to security issues, we are unable to employ foreigners in any position in the aviation industry."
Oh yes .. a few flight schools have agreed to let me "work" as an instructor for free, just to build time on the condition that I pay for the first 50 hours of dual given time !
By the way, one school in Texas even agreed to pay me "unofficial" salary in cash PROVIDED I bring Indian students regularly to the school.
Do you really want me or any other Indian or foreigner to WORK FOR FREE or PAY TO FLY and deprive an American citizen a paying job because of that ?
Be fortunate that me and atleast 5 other Indians I know of have chosen NOT to do such a thing.
I am grateful to the country that gave me opportunity to train and get good education. If I am to work in the USA, I will do it only if it is LEGAL.
Sigh ! .. so any kind of work in USA is pretty much ruled out for the time being.
Working anywhere in the EU is ruled out. They want a JAA licence and a frozen ATPL as bare minimum and citizenship in any of the EU nations !
No charter companies or schools in the Middle East (UAE, Qatar, Saudi, etc) even responded to emails or faxes.
When I enquired on phone, they said they would hire me if I had a King Air rating with minimum 100 hours King Air time.
Now where on earth do I get that King Air Rating from ?
Ok .. fine .. I wont be an "armchair pilot" or wait for something to be served on platter or "pinned on to my tit"... so I'll pay more $$$ and get a King Air rating.
Now ... errr .. what about the 100 hours of King Air time ?
Ah ! .. there's the good old EAGLEJET in Miami, FL, USA. They cant sell me King Air time, but they are willing to sell me 300 or 500 hours of Beech 99 or B1900 time !
Awesome ! .. oh but wait ... it's only going to cost me another $25,000 !!!
Hmm ... No school in australia or New Zealand is interested in my FAA licences or FAA inctructor ratings. Two schools however said they might give me ground instructor positions and possibly flight instruction job in the future IF I could convert my FAA licences to a CASA CPL and pay for atleast 50 hours of PIC time to meet certain requirements !
Nah ! .. not interested .. I'll just keep my current temporary job (not in aviation) and be an "armchair" pilot for some more time till something happens in Indian aviation.
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There is no security issue.....
They are just too lazy or have too many applicants to take the time to follow the security requirements.
Theres lots of foreign nationals working in the USA But some employers don't want to go jumping thru the AFSP TSA hoops.
They are just too lazy or have too many applicants to take the time to follow the security requirements.
Theres lots of foreign nationals working in the USA But some employers don't want to go jumping thru the AFSP TSA hoops.
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Indians should learn how to drive and not eat with there hands before trying to fly
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Sorry but the initial thought still stands.
Getting your tickets in the USA and then complaining about Expats in your homeland smacks of a double standard to me.
Clean up your own yard sort of thing.
Getting your tickets in the USA and then complaining about Expats in your homeland smacks of a double standard to me.
Clean up your own yard sort of thing.
There is no double standards here.
Yes, we did get our tickets in the USA, but we have paid good $$$ for it. The USA govt. has not done any generous charity and given free flight training.
We give you business and $$$, we get service in return. Lets keep it that way.
Expats are not doing voluntary charity here.
They are being paid to work here merely for convenience and because it makes more economic sense in hiring an expat and make him/her fly the airplanes RATHER than training a low time pilot and upgrade him ASAP.
Expats are NOT experts. Expats are just pilots with lots of hours.
A Man's home is his castle.
We paid for flight training, paid takes in $$$ in USA, Canada etc and were NOT allowed to even work part time.
We obey your country's laws and hence returned to our countries after we were done with our training.
Whether jimmygill or I, or any other Indian wants to launch a political campaign against expats (which by the way is YOUR interpretation), it is entirely OUR prerogative.
If you feel so strongly against it and hate foreigners coming to YOUR land, then please by all means join politics in YOUR whatever country and do what you can to take out foreigners.
Return to your country and to your 1$ burger flipping salary jobs, or other bush flying jobs.
Ask your governments to try and plug all the possible loop holes used by foreigners to gain permanent residency or citizenship unscrupulously.