For International Cadets.

[Rhodes13]

CP2009 I wont comment on the COS any further as you probably have it right in front of you but my understanding was the medical, schooling and housing were all benefits of the DESO package but I stand to be corrected. Like I said good on you and enjoy it pity its in ADL though

FL999 I dont know your personal circumstances but provided you go into this with your eyes wide open which you seem to be by doing the maths then I have no problems at all. What I was saying is that your finances have to considered very carefully and certain people saying I survive on 500 a month didnt give that credence, neither did the option of becoming a hermit for the first four years. Remember you work to live not live to work.

Otherwise I wish you well and hope they contact you. I had a good time at the interview and met a lot of nice people there. Maybe I'll see you there one day.

Enjoy

[TGIG]

If you can live and eat like a local then all is good. Try living like an expat and you'll never save any money. 5 years down the road when you still can't pay the downpayment for an apartment larger than a shoebox is when reality will hit.

[GTC58]

Without the housing allowance you will never be able to buy a property in HKG and it will be difficult to put retirement savings aside until captain.

To put it into perspective your career earnings as an expat CPP will be around HKD 18-22 million less as you have to pay for your own rental or mortgage.

Also the above living expenses don't take entertainment, clothing and travel into consideration.

A lot of the SO's have great rosters and most of them travel and explore the world.

[FL999]

Rhodes 13, I know it wont be easy. Its gonna be really tough actually. you've gotta start somewhere though. That opportunity is one of the only ones ive got kick-start my career. so ill have to make those sacrifices at first because for me, there is NO other way to get flying than a CPP.

Cheers mate, glad you've been called. Where have you reached in the selection? How was stage 1?

[FL999]

FL999, i am interested to hear why exactly there is "No other way to fly other than a CPP"

That is a load of .

If you really wanted to fly, you would find a way (like the other 99% of prospective airline pilots)

what a load of utter bs. Do you think everyone lives in a country where you get paid 12 bucks an hour to work in a freakin mcdonalds or where manual labour or any kind of crappy job is well paid?! Do you even know what my situation is?! NO, so I suggest you shut the up. If I could I would. What may be a 'tough life' or having to 'work hard' for you guys is actually NOTHING compared to what other people have to go through in other parts of the world. Please do us a favour and keep you BS to yourself, thank you.

As a side note, do you know how much I earn?! Let me tell you how much I earn you smartass, If i convert to your Aussie Dollar I earn $1.2 an hour working 50 hour weeks and most of my pitiful salary goes into the bloody loan i took when I tried to get my PPL in Australia but couldnt because of unforeseen financial and personal circumstances. Now please spare us of your crap, thank you.

[boquera]

I have to agree (although using less strong words) with FL999. This type of thing is at the moment the only way to go for most people including myself. I simply cannot afford it and don't come from an affluent enough family in which i can get someone to help me out. Im trying everything in my disposal at the moment.

The people who say things like politically blonde (this isnt a personal attack btw) don't take into account personal circumstances. Il be honest, at the moment I don't have a job but even if I did to get to the level that this offers it would take me a hell of a lot of years as I would have living expenses etc to pay for myself.

It is impossible to get a loan to cover this from banks otherwise I would be flying with FTE (actually would be sat around waiting for a job but thats not the point!!!!!) as I went for their interview and passed it. I also went for the CTC interview when they were still offering unsecured loans but failed and by the time they asked me to come back they stopped that. I also went for the GAPAN scholarship but wasn't successful, I even shelled out on a class 1 medical for the pleasure (£330+ isn't a small amount when u have no income!). Also applied for Etihad but was too late.

So getting round to it, saying that you would find a way is nonsense and it actually annoys me when people say that kind of stuff. Im not normally the type of person who rants about this type of post but felt like i had to say something after watching this thread develop.

now where's the bar. I'm mighty thirsty after all that typing!

[TGIG]

CCP is an excellent opportunity to become an airline pilot, but there is a price to be paid. Most international cadets are foreigners, and are therefore expats but without the primary expat benefit of housing. Imagine living/working in a completely foreign environment, without the support of family and friends, but paid as a local. There will be no compensation for leaving home to work in HKG. Not only that, once you've join as a cadet, you are a cadet for life. It might not matter for the first few years, but as the enthusiasm passes you will have to accept that as an ex-cadet F/O you will earn less than an expat S/O; as an ex-cadet Captain you will earn less than an expat F/O. No matter how good it seems now to be able to fly big shiny jets, it is only human to compare and I can assure that one day you will too. If flying is something you've always wanted to do, then go for it! However, it would be wise to consider what you are sacrificing for this opportunity as although the points above might appear trivial now, they will be real once you are back in HKG.

[FL999]

If you are unable to work to pay for your flying, I doubt CX will want to hear a peep from you.

CX is not doing this because they are generous, they are doing it because they want pilots

Im sure CX are smarter than you are. MUCH smarter. So a good pilot is a pilot who can afford flying? So if you live in a country with no GA and cant afford to go abroad to fly, you're not worthy enough to be a pilot. If that was the case there wouldnt be any airline and no pilots in and from my country. The utter stupidity or your statements is amazing.

Oh and FL999 it appears from some of your previous posts that you live in Aus, i dont see how you could legally be getting paid 1.2Aud per hour!!!

Note the past tense twist of the word LIVED. Actually i did work hard to be able to pay for my first 27 hours I got there and the further 4 hours un-logged hours i got in a neighbouring country after having saved up my pennies. If thats what you're talking about? Just to prove that you shouldnt release all your crap without having your facts sorted out, thus the reason for my rant.

For now my money is going into repaying that loan i took to start flying, saving up if ever I need to go abroad for interviews and of course to actually live. All im saying is, not everyone lives in a country where there are more planes then people and where you can work hard and actually get paid what you deserve to be able to save up to fly part-time.

[.air]

Well i am a flight instructor with 800 hours total time..I am living in Jordan and making may be a little lesser money then what Cathay is offering.
I want to be an airline pilot, I have a license but i am thinking of joining Cathay as a cadet pilot. I know that they will train me all over again in Australia and i will be making around 5000 USD if i am not wrong for over 4 years etc.Money is not an issue as I am single.
I applied when this scheme started and i got a reply from them that they can interview me in Hong Kong and i have to go there at my own expense.
My question is how long is it going to take? I am employed and i cannot take a long leave from my company ,also how much will it cost me etc..

Another question i am already trained so will this help me expedite the process in the academy in Australia?

[betpump5]

I know that they will train me all over again in Australia and i will be making around 5000 USD if i am not wrong for over 4 years etc

Not quite sure what you meant here but I hazard a guess that you mean you will make 5000USD per month on a year 4 SO salary right? If so then yes, thereabouts.

TGIG, I think you were looking a little too far ahead because a lot of these kids will come to their senses and leave if it ever got to a point where as a FO, they were on less than a DESO and if Captain, less than a DEFO. They wouldn't stay. You are right. It will definately get to you. It may take them 4 years as an SO and 2 years as a JFO before they can leave or have unfrozen their license but afterwards, they will leave.

I'm confident however that with ongoing talks, they will get a housing allowance to keep them sweet. Nothing like a DESO but an allowance all the same. Talks started a month back I believe.

I think though from what I have read that your target audience is wrong - in the sense that the meany respondees here will never get in.

The international cadets who are applying/have been accepted are ex-doctors, accountants, lawyers-to name a few professions. And these guys are looking at a pay decrease that will take more than 5 years to get up to their current salaries. I am confident with this sort of calibre, they have done more than enough research and fully understand the implications. I for one do support them and wish them luck.

There are things in the pipeline for getting allowances so I suggest the "holier-than-thou I don't need allowance to get my dream job fantasists" stop spouting as you aren't really helping!

[betpump5]

I assume you put my name down by mistake?

Matt V, I am actually very confused by your post. Firstly I am the only one that has wished current cadets and future cadets all the best and have not gone down the line that some other senior members have by focusing purely on the negatives.

Secondly, I have been the first person to bring a potential positive here by saying that there may be an allowance in the very near future - which is not really any big secret here in CX. Therefore, those current SOs who are fighting for an allowance and those talking on their behalf do not really want to see prospective candidates fecking up this process when they haven't even got through to the course yet.

Thirdly, at what point did I say I wanted to fly with them and if I did, why would that be sad? I remarked that the cadets that have actually got in are ex doctors, accoutants, lawyers so I am assuming that they have already taken the negatives of living in Hong Kong into consideration. In short, I was further defending the scheme itself and the cadets who are actually on the scheme.

Anyway, I keep re-reading your post and looking at my posts to see where you could forge such an opinion and I just can not see it.

[FL999]

I think its about time we stick together instead of arguing like that. Nothing anyone could say will change the fact that some people need these kinds of programs to succeed. What betpump5 is saying is very encouraging and we should find ways to support those cadets who are fighting for our cause instead of being all negative and trying to dissuade people from applying. I have a feeling things will change with the economy and practices such as no housing allowance will eventually stop. Dont expect an expat allowance but anything would be appreciated. All the facts stated here are valid and should be considered but we should also stick together and help each other out. We're goign through tough times so its obvious things will be hard but being glass half empty wont help anyone.

[FL999]

Now, does anyone know Cathay's requirements concerning training loan repayments? Is a sum of money deducted from the SO Salary to accomodate for it and how many years will it take before you can leave Cathay after completing the course. Im asking because if Cathay decided to charge your for the training even while giving a housing allowance, it would make no difference at all. If you get your full SO salary in the first year itself, consider that you've just been trained for free so I wouldnt whinge too much about it. I dont know how it works so can anyone enlighten us on this?

[holdmetight]

it is my understanding that CX does not give training loans to cadets, as such ex-cadet S/Os are not required to repay any sum of money to the company. there is no bond period for ex-cadets either.

[FL999]

it is my understanding that CX does not give training loans to cadets, as such ex-cadet S/Os are not required to repay any sum of money to the company. there is no bond period for ex-cadets either.

If thats true, CX must be one of the most generous airlines out there. You're trained for free and can leave at any time. A small housing allowance would be the icing on the cake. I guess thats why you have to spend 4 years in the jumpseat. Its pretty fair I think. id rather do that than be on the right seat straight away with a massive loan and a contractual bond which is what most airlines do nowadays.

[holdmetight]

I guess thats why you have to spend 4 years in the jumpseat.

i would think ex-cadets start their CX career in the jumpseat because of their lack of jet experience, not necessarily because they used to be cadet pilots.

anyhow, i agree that the CX cadet program is one of the most generous programs in the world, at least training-wise. i cannot think of any other major airline where you would not be required to repay your training cost AND be allowed to leave when one wishes.

the reasons behind the cadet program appearing to be generous or the local pilot salary package being below par with the DE salary package is due to the background of the entire LEP/CEP setup. the CPP originated in 1988 as a type of community initiative that would allow aspiring local youngsters to become commercial pilots. as such, CX would not require a cadet to repay the costs accrued in his/her training. the cadet would also not be eligible for housing allowances and benefits that his/her expatriate counterparts were entitled to, due to the cadet being assumed to have ample family roots in HKG.

obviously, now that the situation has changed and international applicants are also being considered, i wouldn't be surprised to see changes to the cadet program itself, as well as the renumeration packages for cadets who graduate and join the company as S/Os.

[snowleopard]

A Serious Issue

I have been going through this whole forum for a long time and though I very clearly understand the differences between a DESO and a CEP. What I fail to understand is that,

"Isnt it only for the first six years that you compulsorily stay in HKG...???"

I mean, like CX offers a variety of base ports for F/O's and Captains, compared to other airlines. So, why not move on to a place like New York or Chicago, after being promoted to an F/O in 6yrs, if you feel the cost of living in HKG is too high...??? I mean, Can we not do that...???

How would you feel after 20yrs in CX sitting on the flight deck as Capt and the direct entry 3rd yr S/O gets paid more than you do? Actually you are the lowest paid pilot on the flight deck, and will always be unless flying with another CEP! One day as a training Capt you also will train guy/girls who get paid more than you. That makes perfect sense

What on earth does this mean...??? Is there really such a difference in the pay scale..??? Does a 3rd yr S/O really earn more than a 20 yr Capt...??? Or is it just that CX pays for housing for DE's and thus, they have more to spend while we pay for it ourselves...???

Replies Solicited...

[betpump5]

I'll answer.

First of all, if you are indeed lucky enough to be promoted to an FO in 6 years (fair enough no reason why not), then that is day 1 of your name being put down on the waiting list. Current waiting lists start at around 7 years until you get your chosen base - especially like London for example. Maybe more now the retirement age has increased. Therefore, from Day 1 as an SO, you could be waiting a minimum of 10-12 years before you ever get to be based where you want. Not to be dissappointed-I'd prepare for 15 years.

In terms of actual salary, there is no difference. Pay scales are the same for ex-pats and locals. The payscales have already been presented by Titan404. The difference is that a DESO/DEFO is (was!) paid a housing allowance of 25K per month depending on seniority etc etc. So it is very likely that a JFO (LEP) in his/her first year would actually be on less than a Year 1 DESO collectively-and you will have 3 years seniority over him.

Now you can analyse this difference and this is what provides the two sides of every argument. What has the DESO done in order to get into CX? Perhaps paid for it all himself? Spent 2 years flight instructing? Then got himself a job flying turbo-pistons in Botswana? How much has it cost him and how much has he lost in those 3-5 years?

These are the two-sides as to the negatives/positives of the CXCPP.

Now Titan 404 has cleverly written the 2 differerences on Page 4 showing the difference between a 35 year career CPP and a 30 year career DESO. He took into account the 5 years it took for the pilot to become DESO and the cost of self-sponsoring. He calculated that the DESO is better off by AUD760'000 over a career lifespan. I'll confirm those rough figures for sure.

Now as someonw rightly wrote - are you prepared to gamble that AUD760K? Especially in this current climate? Because one thing is for sure, if you start training now (as many a UK wannabe has found) it will take far longer than 5 years to get to a DESO position. One could argue that in 2 years time (having self-sponsored) there will be GA jobs available. Again thats the gamble. Will you get into the DESO scheme? Will we have a DESO scheme when you want to apply? Infinite amount of questions where only YOU can deicde your route.

Take what is said here and make your own decision.

[snowleopard]

Still more questions:

Thanks betpump,
That was informative. But all the more, it only rises a lot more questions in my ever-curious mind. I hope u don't mind answering.

i) After the initial six years of the contract, if we would like to continue working with CX and would have to renew or re-establish the whole contract, would we still be ineligible for housing allowances...??? Because, at that point in time, we would be joining CX as a first officer, which, I think is almost the same as a DEFO.

ii) Saying we work at CX for 6 years, isn't it most likely that we would have attained a number of type ratings, an ATPL and a number of hours in jet flying time, which is what many major airlines require for their F/O's, thereby giving us an easy chance of being hired by some other major airline...???

[betpump5]

It isn't really a 6 year contract as the concept is illegal here in HK. You don't renew anything and you remain on the T&Cs that you sign. Yes throughout your career, you will not get the allowance (but it is being worked on!)

DEFO is the same as FO! Except for the housing allowance.

No. You will get one type rating on either the 343, 77W, 744. I doubt you will get moved about as a SO. Now an SO is not really recognised by airlines outside of Singapore, CX, KLM. Therefore after 4 years as an SO, regardless of how many hours you have (which still might not have reached 1500 to unfreeze the ATPL as you are only a relief crew) , you have not actually done any take-offs or landings! So you actually are pretty worthless at that point, even after 4 years. You get the experience as a JFO for 2 years.

So techincally speaking, this is CX's playing cards. A contract can not be enforced for 6 years, yet it is improbable that any airline will take you during those 6 years.

Again, this is something to keep in mind when making your decision.