For International Cadets.
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guys, what's the problem here?
the answer to the question ''is CX CPP a good program??'' all depends on what is your personal situation and what are your goals. I passed all CX interviews, exams, went to do flight grading in Adelaide, and for personnal reasons I decided not to get into this program and left in the middle of flight grading. It was a pure personnal decision. I was supposed to be in CP35. Don't compare yourself to others, just think about YOUR situation and make the decision by yourself. There shouldn't be any debate about this program. It's either you feel like it's a good opportunity, and work hard to get in and commit to it, or you feel like it's not the right thing for you, and you don't apply. But there is no point in arguing about it. Take it or leave it. Do what is the best for yourself.
the answer to the question ''is CX CPP a good program??'' all depends on what is your personal situation and what are your goals. I passed all CX interviews, exams, went to do flight grading in Adelaide, and for personnal reasons I decided not to get into this program and left in the middle of flight grading. It was a pure personnal decision. I was supposed to be in CP35. Don't compare yourself to others, just think about YOUR situation and make the decision by yourself. There shouldn't be any debate about this program. It's either you feel like it's a good opportunity, and work hard to get in and commit to it, or you feel like it's not the right thing for you, and you don't apply. But there is no point in arguing about it. Take it or leave it. Do what is the best for yourself.
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guys, what's the problem here?
However the OPs 'speech' should have been placed in the Terms and Endearment forum where an abundance of like minded posts have been presented ad nauseum - especially regarding easyJet.
If you read the original post word for word, there is absolutely no constructive advice given (if imparting advice was the intention somehow). If you are single with no worries, then the CPP is brilliant in this current climate. If, as put, one has a partner, three kids and a dog, then you certainly will not live on 33 thousand Hong Kong dollars a month.
Do potential candidates with the intelligence and apptitude for professional flight traning and a 4 stage cadet application procedure really need to be told this?
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Triplespool123
Sometimes and most of the time...advices are given by facts just like what <SMOC> n some others have said (but i guess mine was more critic). If you received and replied it in a way like the others did (but then i guess that isn't u)...then i dont think there wouldve been so many posters replying on ur personal attacks. Hence, i think in the near future, if u are that unfortunate person...Do u think u could take the fact that u cannot achieve ur flying dream? Or are u just going to put ur parents or family into more debts? because like u said.
If you read the original post word for word, there is absolutely no constructive advice given (if imparting advice was the intention somehow).
Flying is a dream. No one does it for the money.
Because flying is a dream and not a job, the rewards are merely a bonus
Last edited by EPASZ; 27th Oct 2009 at 13:46.
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Epaz et al,
As I have said in many replies, my amazement has been at why you started this thread and I have mentioned on numerous occasions about a personal agenda. PPrune welcomes musings but does not look too kindly on "blogs". And that is what your original post was - a blog. A "Dear Auntie" letter to the editor.
I took the liberty of looking through your posts and it seems you have not changed the record since circa June 2009:
Like I said. Personal agenda.
I also looked at the threads yourself, Smoc, Holdmetight, Sqwak7700 posted on and I think it makes things completely clear and proves my point in my earlier post:
Smoc 19 June 2009
and the killer point:
Sqwak7700 19 June 2009
I rest my case.
Like I said, I appreciate that schemes like this and starry-eyed wannabees like me and others are causing Sqwak7700 to write things like the above. But that does not give you the right to start a thread spreading what can only be discribed as poison. Is this a monthly blog you will write. Can we expect another thread in December on the same subject...again? Don't you find it boring?
As I have said in many replies, my amazement has been at why you started this thread and I have mentioned on numerous occasions about a personal agenda. PPrune welcomes musings but does not look too kindly on "blogs". And that is what your original post was - a blog. A "Dear Auntie" letter to the editor.
I took the liberty of looking through your posts and it seems you have not changed the record since circa June 2009:
Now that the Cadet program are open to all nationalities instead of HKIDers, might as well tell the world Cathay is hiring expats on half price (on local terms)
you think that's a good thing for the expats who has spent years of accumulating hours to try to get a job in CX
I also looked at the threads yourself, Smoc, Holdmetight, Sqwak7700 posted on and I think it makes things completely clear and proves my point in my earlier post:
Smoc 19 June 2009
If the AOA doesn't negotiate a decent package for these guys, CX will have a new low to aim for!
Sqwak7700 19 June 2009
This will allow them to hire masses more pilots and get rid of the really expensive ones... you and me
Like I said, I appreciate that schemes like this and starry-eyed wannabees like me and others are causing Sqwak7700 to write things like the above. But that does not give you the right to start a thread spreading what can only be discribed as poison. Is this a monthly blog you will write. Can we expect another thread in December on the same subject...again? Don't you find it boring?
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alright...
Nicely said...
I got the answer i want from all ur killer replies. And i gotta re-write my topic to something more like..."INTERNATIONAL CADETSHIP...WHO IS IT FOR?"
And that ripping off thing that u attacked in all ur replies...I will make sure I check ur post every month from now on to see how u are progressing. Because it seems more interesting that way. But hopefully i wont have to Quote out ur replies in the future.
Thanks for resting the case.
I got the answer i want from all ur killer replies. And i gotta re-write my topic to something more like..."INTERNATIONAL CADETSHIP...WHO IS IT FOR?"
And that ripping off thing that u attacked in all ur replies...I will make sure I check ur post every month from now on to see how u are progressing. Because it seems more interesting that way. But hopefully i wont have to Quote out ur replies in the future.
Thanks for resting the case.
Last edited by EPASZ; 27th Oct 2009 at 15:05.
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I'd like to call a truce though 
lets leave it there.
I guess for a single guy like me, I never really thought how difficult it would be for a family guy/gal if they did apply for the CPP. I'd imagine it would be close to impossible to live on a SO salary if you are used to the US/Aussie/UK lifestyle and expect to live like ex-pats do in Hong Kong.
However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?
I read somewhere someone saying that they still get education for kids, medical insurance, free (discounted) flights for parents and spouses etc just not the Housing.
is this true?
Peace
lets leave it there.I guess for a single guy like me, I never really thought how difficult it would be for a family guy/gal if they did apply for the CPP. I'd imagine it would be close to impossible to live on a SO salary if you are used to the US/Aussie/UK lifestyle and expect to live like ex-pats do in Hong Kong.
However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?
I read somewhere someone saying that they still get education for kids, medical insurance, free (discounted) flights for parents and spouses etc just not the Housing.
is this true?
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TS123,
i believe the LEP/CEP package does not entail schooling for children either. as far as i know, the package for ex-cadets is just the basic salary. you are then given a small amount of housing allowance when you make Captain. check out this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...4-cpp-pay.html
though, things could have changed since the last time i checked, so perhaps someone knowledgable can come on and correct me. let's hope i am wrong
i believe the LEP/CEP package does not entail schooling for children either. as far as i know, the package for ex-cadets is just the basic salary. you are then given a small amount of housing allowance when you make Captain. check out this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...4-cpp-pay.html
though, things could have changed since the last time i checked, so perhaps someone knowledgable can come on and correct me. let's hope i am wrong
Last edited by holdmetight; 27th Oct 2009 at 15:54.
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umm
However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?
But lucky for him...he has already made FO (after 4.5 years)(making alright money when his is kinda single)...But the bad news is, now that more senior captains can retire at 65 instead of 55...it is going to take him an extra 4-5 years on top of the original 10 years average to be considered for Captainship.
SO upgrades times are looking grey it seems...
Im not an expert in HK base airliness because i dont work in that region...perhaps someone else has more info.
Peace
Triplespool123
Just as a point the education allowance for cadets has changed recently. Cadets were never entitled to this but now get it if they have children once they achieve FO year 1. Currently this is about six years after starting. So if you have kids of school age this cost needs to be added to my list of expenses.
It is very interesting that this was only offered the day 90 cep joined the HKAOA.
Just as a point the education allowance for cadets has changed recently. Cadets were never entitled to this but now get it if they have children once they achieve FO year 1. Currently this is about six years after starting. So if you have kids of school age this cost needs to be added to my list of expenses.
It is very interesting that this was only offered the day 90 cep joined the HKAOA.
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What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?
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What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?
Answer = The military
Answer = The military
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Briefly offtopic...and following on from what Darbz stated
But I would like to ask the airline pilots out there without Airforce experience, would you recommend the Airforce before joining a commercial airline?
Or do you think the direction you took was the best way?
Finally, would you rather take a CPP entry or Airforce entry?
Personally I feel that I run the risk of entering the airforce and having to watch other guys fly better aircraft if i don't make the cut *touch wood*
Quote from "Speed and Angels".
"A. I'm stuck in the navy doing some boring job for 10 years
B. I have to spend the next 10 years watching other guys land on carriers..its just unbearable"
But I would like to ask the airline pilots out there without Airforce experience, would you recommend the Airforce before joining a commercial airline?
Or do you think the direction you took was the best way?
Finally, would you rather take a CPP entry or Airforce entry?
Personally I feel that I run the risk of entering the airforce and having to watch other guys fly better aircraft if i don't make the cut *touch wood*
Quote from "Speed and Angels".
"A. I'm stuck in the navy doing some boring job for 10 years
B. I have to spend the next 10 years watching other guys land on carriers..its just unbearable"
Career Earning Difference Between DESO and International CPP.
So what are the earnings difference between someone that joins CX through the DESO channel and the International CPP? Before I put down my maths lets assume that both these pilots start working as pilots at the age of 30. One goes the GA route in Australia for 5 years then DESO and has a 30 year career with CX. The other joins CX as an international cadet and has a 35 year career with CX. Both pilots retiring at 65 years of age. All income is based on COS08 pay scales in 2009 HK$. Housing is based on rental and mortgage assistance as at Oct 2009 levels in HK$. GA income and training costs are in HK$ converted from AU$ at an exchange rate of 7.2.
So let’s look at someone that comes into CX by the international CPP. I have based my numbers on 4 years as a SO, 1 year as a JFO, 10 years as a FO and 20 years as a Capt. Captains that came into CX as cadets are also entitled to HK$24,000.00 per month housing assistance. Based on this their total income for 35 years of CX service = HK$40,810,796.00. Housing for 20 years = HK$5,760,000.00. Training costs provided by the company in Adelaide were AU$150,000.00 = HK$1,080,000.00. If you now add income, housing and initial training costs as it is a benefit you get a total = HK$47,650,796.00.
Now lets look at someone that spends 5 years in GA earning for arguments sake AU$30,000.00 a year. Over a five year period this would equal HK$1,080,000.00. The average cost to get an Aussie CPL, MECIR with ATPL subjects is about AU$70,000.00 = HK$504,000.00. After 30 years of CX service made up with the same numbers as the cadet pilot above except only 15 years as Capt he/she could expect to earn a total income of HK$32,329,376.00. Housing is based on 15 years of mortgage assistance (current max) and 15 years of rental assistance = HK$21,811,200.00. If you now add all the incomes and housing and subtract the pilots initial training costs as it was self funded you get a total = HK$54,716,576.00.
Therefore the difference between coming into CX via the DESO route and the international CPP is about HK$7,065,780.00 or AU$981,358.00 for an Aussie national. Even if you borrowed the AU$70,000.00 for your initial training over a 30 year period at 10% you are AU$760,210.00 better off the DESO route.
So let’s look at someone that comes into CX by the international CPP. I have based my numbers on 4 years as a SO, 1 year as a JFO, 10 years as a FO and 20 years as a Capt. Captains that came into CX as cadets are also entitled to HK$24,000.00 per month housing assistance. Based on this their total income for 35 years of CX service = HK$40,810,796.00. Housing for 20 years = HK$5,760,000.00. Training costs provided by the company in Adelaide were AU$150,000.00 = HK$1,080,000.00. If you now add income, housing and initial training costs as it is a benefit you get a total = HK$47,650,796.00.
Now lets look at someone that spends 5 years in GA earning for arguments sake AU$30,000.00 a year. Over a five year period this would equal HK$1,080,000.00. The average cost to get an Aussie CPL, MECIR with ATPL subjects is about AU$70,000.00 = HK$504,000.00. After 30 years of CX service made up with the same numbers as the cadet pilot above except only 15 years as Capt he/she could expect to earn a total income of HK$32,329,376.00. Housing is based on 15 years of mortgage assistance (current max) and 15 years of rental assistance = HK$21,811,200.00. If you now add all the incomes and housing and subtract the pilots initial training costs as it was self funded you get a total = HK$54,716,576.00.
Therefore the difference between coming into CX via the DESO route and the international CPP is about HK$7,065,780.00 or AU$981,358.00 for an Aussie national. Even if you borrowed the AU$70,000.00 for your initial training over a 30 year period at 10% you are AU$760,210.00 better off the DESO route.
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404 titan,
This obviously took a lot of time and effort and really does highlight the differences. I think to all the International Cadets who obviously don't have these figures to hand, I think they are educated enough to realise that having no housing allowance for throughout their career adds up to some serious amounts! No one ever said otherwise.
However that AU$760'000 is your betting money.
1. There in no DESO. There are some posts here saying that it may start up in 2010 but will CX need that many considering CP31 and 32 are set to graduate next year? Either way I can't see their being a DESO scheme in Cathay in the future when they already have 6 CPP schemes this running this year with more set to start next year - and remember, CX are doing the CPP so that they dont have to pay the housing allowance anymore.
2. The person who decides against the CPP needs to have the money to start with in order to self-sponsor. I for one am not that person and I'm pretty sure the other applicants are in the same boat.
3. If I did have the money, there is no gurantee of a job even in GA. Thats certainly true here in the UK and from what I have read, its pretty much the same in AUS.
4. If I did somehow manage to pay for my traning, and be lucky enough to get a GA job for 5 years, is there a gurantee that DESO will have started up in 2016? OR, where is my gurantee that I'll get a jet/airline job?
These four points (and there are 1000 points more especially in this industry and in this unstable climate) are the reason why myself and many others here consider this scheme to be the only guranteed way into that dream job and why we have the opinion that we are not "getting ripped off".
But like I say, I thank you for your post. Yes I'll admit its shocking to see the actual figure presented to me. But just like in banking, you can invest little and risk little. Or you can invest big (pay for it yourself) but risk losing out on an excellent opportunity.
I don't even have the luxury of the latter choice. Because I don't have the funds to self-sponsor.
timeo Danaus et dona ferentum seems to be very very true in this industry.
This obviously took a lot of time and effort and really does highlight the differences. I think to all the International Cadets who obviously don't have these figures to hand, I think they are educated enough to realise that having no housing allowance for throughout their career adds up to some serious amounts! No one ever said otherwise.
However that AU$760'000 is your betting money.
1. There in no DESO. There are some posts here saying that it may start up in 2010 but will CX need that many considering CP31 and 32 are set to graduate next year? Either way I can't see their being a DESO scheme in Cathay in the future when they already have 6 CPP schemes this running this year with more set to start next year - and remember, CX are doing the CPP so that they dont have to pay the housing allowance anymore.
2. The person who decides against the CPP needs to have the money to start with in order to self-sponsor. I for one am not that person and I'm pretty sure the other applicants are in the same boat.
3. If I did have the money, there is no gurantee of a job even in GA. Thats certainly true here in the UK and from what I have read, its pretty much the same in AUS.
4. If I did somehow manage to pay for my traning, and be lucky enough to get a GA job for 5 years, is there a gurantee that DESO will have started up in 2016? OR, where is my gurantee that I'll get a jet/airline job?
These four points (and there are 1000 points more especially in this industry and in this unstable climate) are the reason why myself and many others here consider this scheme to be the only guranteed way into that dream job and why we have the opinion that we are not "getting ripped off".
But like I say, I thank you for your post. Yes I'll admit its shocking to see the actual figure presented to me. But just like in banking, you can invest little and risk little. Or you can invest big (pay for it yourself) but risk losing out on an excellent opportunity.
I don't even have the luxury of the latter choice. Because I don't have the funds to self-sponsor.
timeo Danaus et dona ferentum seems to be very very true in this industry.
Last edited by Triplespool123; 28th Oct 2009 at 16:47.
Triplespool123
CX has actually averaged employing about 170 pilots each year for the last nine years including during the downturns caused by 911 and SARS. Of these 170, cadets have usually accounted for about 30 – 40. CX are ramping up the CPP to about 70 – 80 per year not only because of costs but because they simply realise that the pilots they will need in the future to drive their expansion plans simply won’t exist in the numbers they will need from DE. During 2006/2007 for example it is a fact they couldn’t fill classes because of a chronic shortage of quality DE candidates. CX’s plans are for a mixture of recruitment including cadets and DE. Unfortunately there is currently no recruitment planned for 2010 including for those graduating from the CPP.
Regarding self sponsoring one doesn’t necessarily need to have the money up front. You can borrow the money or do what I did, work full time and learn to fly part-time. It took me four years to get my CPL and I had no debt at the end.
There’s actually no guarantee of a job with CX either even if you get into the CPP. Up to 30% of each class fail the course.
There is a very good chance that there will be DESO’s and/or DEFO’s courses by 2016. CX simply can’t train enough candidates it will need by the CPP alone.
A guaranteed job in life would be the ultimate utopia. Unfortunately there aren’t any guarantees in life including getting through the CPP or finding a GA job.
1. There in no DESO. There are some posts here saying that it may start up in 2010 but will CX need that many considering CP31 and 32 are set to graduate next year? Either way I can't see their being a DESO scheme in Cathay in the future when they already have 6 CPP schemes this running this year with more set to start next year - and remember, CX are doing the CPP so that they dont have to pay the housing allowance anymore.
2. The person who decides against the CPP needs to have the money to start with in order to self-sponsor. I for one am not that person and I'm pretty sure the other applicants are in the same boat.
3. If I did have the money, there is no gurantee of a job even in GA. Thats certainly true here in the UK and from what I have read, its pretty much the same in AUS.
4. If I did somehow manage to pay for my traning, and be lucky enough to get a GA job for 5 years, is there a gurantee that DESO will have started up in 2016? OR, where is my gurantee that I'll get a jet/airline job?
A guaranteed job in life would be the ultimate utopia. Unfortunately there aren’t any guarantees in life including getting through the CPP or finding a GA job.
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Titan 404 and anyone else who wants to join in this charades,
I could reply back to your points. And then you can reply to mine ad infinitum. But I won't as I have no hidden agenda-and I'm bored.
So I guess my only question to you is why do you care so much and what are you trying to achieve? Will I gain your respect more if I go modular, pay as I go, do my 5 year stint spraying crops, then join an airline? Will I regain the respect of my seniors here if I do this?
You spent all that time writing the finance break down, and a reply to my message and I just can't see why you are doing it. Along with Espaz (as I mentioned previously) you have been playing the same record since June.
Guys - what is the agenda? Up to now I'm still completely lost.
Forgive my cynicism but is this some crusade you are all on to stop people applying to CX CPP therefore making sure that T&Cs are not watered down? If it is, then its bordering on pathetic. I extended an olive branch to Espaz (and others against the scheme) thinking that this would stop this bickering but you just can't let it go. Seriously- how long did it take you to write that financial breakdown? An accountant would be proud of that.
I could reply back to your points. And then you can reply to mine ad infinitum. But I won't as I have no hidden agenda-and I'm bored.
So I guess my only question to you is why do you care so much and what are you trying to achieve? Will I gain your respect more if I go modular, pay as I go, do my 5 year stint spraying crops, then join an airline? Will I regain the respect of my seniors here if I do this?
You spent all that time writing the finance break down, and a reply to my message and I just can't see why you are doing it. Along with Espaz (as I mentioned previously) you have been playing the same record since June.
Guys - what is the agenda? Up to now I'm still completely lost.
Forgive my cynicism but is this some crusade you are all on to stop people applying to CX CPP therefore making sure that T&Cs are not watered down? If it is, then its bordering on pathetic. I extended an olive branch to Espaz (and others against the scheme) thinking that this would stop this bickering but you just can't let it go. Seriously- how long did it take you to write that financial breakdown? An accountant would be proud of that.
Triplespool123
Oh boy. You can drag a camel to water but you can’t make him drink it. Anyway a number of others used their initiative and pm’ed me to ask questions from the information I raised. The information isn’t designed to put you off coming. It was designed to make you ask questions. The very same types of hard questions you will be asked at the interviews. CX is very well aware that this package will make it tough to live here for an expat especially one with a family. They are going to spend a lot of money on you so they are going to make sure they protect their investment. If there is any hint that you may take their investment to Emirates or Ryan air because you haven’t given some serious thought to how you will live here you won’t get the job.
About 20 minutes. If you have a look at my profile you will see I am an accountant as well.
So I guess my only question to you is why do you care so much and what are you trying to achieve?
You spent all that time writing the finance break down, and a reply to my message and I just can't see why you are doing it.
Guys - what is the agenda? Up to now I'm still completely lost.
You spent all that time writing the finance break down, and a reply to my message and I just can't see why you are doing it.
Guys - what is the agenda? Up to now I'm still completely lost.
Seriously- how long did it take you to write that financial breakdown? An accountant would be proud of that.