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Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

South Asia and Far East Wannabes A forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong-based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries.

Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

Old 29th Oct 2011, 03:46
  #3281 (permalink)  
 
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Any idea what the issue with the online application system is? Has been down for a few days now
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 04:01
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Hi everyone,
Would really enjoy hearing from anyone who knows what kinda of reasoning test they are using now for stage one, I have heard it is no longer Wombat, but now matrix. Could anyone comfirm this or provide any info on this matter.

GTA
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 04:10
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ground to air

Wombat or Matrix, please let me know if you find out via a pm or other means. Cheers
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 04:39
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Fly_boy, I disagree.

You'll find from the vast majority of defenders of the iCadet package come from those who see GA or a regional airline as "too hard" for any number of reasons. Or, they feel a massive sense of entitlement to not ever need to gain experience or qualifications: and this is precisely what CX have set up. As such CX can pay the disgraceful insult that they offer. Pilots with the qualifications that used to be required treat it as they should....a slap in the face of standards and all they worked for. There will always be one or two exceptions who have their own reasons....

You have an option because you made that situation available to yourself. Others do not want for, try for or care for anything other than satisfying their own Shiny Jet Syndrome at any cost to their integrity, long term future or the profession they insult. Most see no other option because they refuse to look: "too hard".

I have swapped numerous PM's with guys who agree and disagree with my point of view. Unlike some, they had the intelligence to argue from an informed point of view, or genuinely wanted to know why guys like me disagree with it so much.

Hours built away from the iron curtain of CX are golden. You will own your hours and therefore destiny.

1) The P2X rating is not recognised outside of the CX/CAD umbrella, therefore neither can the hours be. If for whatever reason (family emergency, poor health, hate HK, hate CX, fall in love...whatever) you want to or have to leave HK no airline, not even a GA light twin company will want you. You have no recognisable hours. Add to that the Forgivable Loan (call it what it is, a "BOND") that has to be paid back if leaving < 6 years.... And you pay tax on that bond. You have to pay CX back every cent they "gave you" (HA!!!) So, you have to pay the bond plus the tax as that is non refundable, therefore you pay MORE than what you were "given"! (Aren't CX nice!!!! And we hear so often idiots sprouting, "but it's free!!") But if you stay.....
2) The Housing Allowance is not factored to CPI. So, then $10k in year 1 = $7,800 in year 2 (as per 22% increase last year alone, do some min research). Say the following year it's only 8%, then the next year 5%, then the next year 15%.... Just by this random but very conservative example (but not unrealistic) your $10k is now worth $5,795. So, eventually you become a Capt and get what a 3rd year SO under CoS08 gets: $36k. That $36k will be potentially worth LESS than the original $10k you started with some 20 years before!!!!
3) Savings and retirement..... Factor probable family, kids, single income supporting the family, bills, etc.... Sorry. This package is dirt. You will not retire comfortably. As a single person alone try to calculate how long it will take to save just for the deposit of a $5 million HKD apartment (ie, approx 550 sq ft in Sheung Wan)....??!!! A wife & 2 kids in that space?? Yeah, this "opportunity" keeps getting better...!!!!!

If you own your own hours you are not chained to a company with a history of disregarding the black & white terms and conditions of your contract, and under a legal system that also doesn't care. You own your own destiny and can apply to the vast range of airlines who are hiring pilots for DEFO on A320 or 737 with as little as 500 hrs TT. People will ask me where these jobs are. Again, there lies the stupidity. I don't even need a job yet I read aviation journals and web sites and they are staring at anyone with an ounce of common sense right in the face. And they pay a damn site better than the iCadet package as well as letting you touch the controls!!!

I'll bet not one of the iCadet advocates has read John Warhams book The 49ers - The True Story.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 29th Oct 2011 at 04:58.
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 04:39
  #3285 (permalink)  
 
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If the people slating the CX scheme could chime in here that would be great.

What I would really be interested in hearing from you, other than, the vast majority of us are ill-informed and delusional is what other legitimate long term career options are available to those with little cash to their names?

I understand that working an 80 hour week so you can afford three hours of flying a month is admirable, but to me, I feel this is working hard rather than working smart.

I also understand the negatives of the scheme but still feel that overall it is a good deal. It expediates training, provides the security of employment for three plus years (allbeit not increasing salary) and all the sandwiches I could dream for.

Being completely realistic here, I do feel that those who say SO's will be living in abject poverty are overexaggerating. I used to live in Hong Kong working as a junior architect. I was on 16,000 per month. Pretty good money compared to others who had just finished a degree and were starting their career in HK.

I shared an apartment and enjoyed my time out in expat restaurants and bars as well as local haunts. I admit I didn't save anything, but I managed fine. What everyone has to realise is that the offer is very much dependant on the individual. I would not have even considered anything of the sort if I had three children, a sick mother and two disabled pets.

Please keep in mind that although the offer is substandard to you and what was given to you in the past, it no longer is relevant. You are working with a different contract that is not on offer to us. The good ol' days will not be back. And they won't be back, not because we accept lower salaries and T's and C's but because it is the nature of the beast.

You used to bang your head against a brickwall when your parents told you they had to walk a hundred miles in the freezing snow to buy a potato for dinner. We now do the same when you talk about your contracts and how glorious those days were and how we are destroying the company by accepting these T's and C's. You tell us not to accept them and work somewhere else. If you don't want us to accept these T's and C's because it devalues you and your position, it may be time for you to move on rather than asking us not to join. We don't have a problem with you, it appears, you have a problem with us.

This is my opinion and I also (whether you agree or not is fine) believe that there is some jealousy associated with how relatively easy the icadets have it compared to what some of the GA guys have done. Which I think is completely acceptable. I'd be peeved off to in some respects.

Now, feel free to cut me to shreds...
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 06:06
  #3286 (permalink)  
 
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For those interested in the cadet program; do your homework. Thoroughly. Then some.

CB can be pretty abrasive (believe me, i know) but he does have a point. Good luck with your interviews - although you'll have my sympathy if you do make it through. Just an FYI, the cadets who qualified in 2010 accepted a living allowance (for their career!) of 0HKD per month. The 2011 cadets were offered $10,000 HKD per month. Any guesses as to what the direct entry pilots are being paid?

Know what you are signing up for, and know what you are forfeiting in the long run.

Good luck!
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 08:04
  #3287 (permalink)  
 
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Ha.... Yes, admittedly over abrasive at times. (I trust all is progressing well).

whatever: No, we are not referring to the glorious good 'ole days. We are referring to what an airline pilot's value is now and should be truly worth. This CEP has seen a devaluation of some 60% - all at a time of record profits. That does not even make sense to rational people. So, therein lies the problem. Too many of you see this as a "great opportunity" because you refuse to acknowledge what it really is: a lowering of standards to a despicable level (many will also argue safety) to attract those who formally could not apply & therefore lower remuneration all for one purpose: GREED.

Walk 100 miles in the freezing snow to buy a potato for dinner? If that potato was the best potato in the world, had the best nutrition in the world & would feed my long term needs then, yes it would be worth the walk. But now you guys are offered an artificially sweetened, artificially scented lollypop that is advertised as cheap, easy and accessible, so you all line up and grab it. All the while others warned, and warned and warned you.

And why? Because most have little to no experience, little to no credentials and even less desire to accept what others tell you. If you did then you would appreciate what a pilot of a (widebody) jet is worth. They see $45k HKD a month as a "good opportunity" compared to what they are used to. Again, CX have you hook, line & sinker....all the while laughing as the decision makers line their pockets with the naivety of so many suckers. When the realities of the LONG TERM kick in then guy not shackled to CX will be far, far better off both as a career airline pilot and financially: in the LONG TERM.

whatever... You mention job security. You obviously have not botherd to read Warham's book The 49ers - The True Story. Job security at CX? That is an oxymoron and laughable if not so sad to be true. You should not tout loose statements that are completely wrong.

When a kid is used to earning nothing then anything looks attractive. You think CX don't know this? The devil is in the detail, not to mention the slight of hand of the magician. Too many believe an illusion is a long term reality.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 30th Oct 2011 at 04:42.
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 08:42
  #3288 (permalink)  
 
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ChinaB:

This is the point I am trying to make. You say that CX has devalued wide body pilots to a despicable level. All I am really trying to find out is, what other options are out there for people with no money to their names?

Is it fair to assume you can only become a pilot by spending $US 80-100K? And that if you do not have the money nor the perserverance for ten years, then you should not be a pilot?

As an aside, I do understand about the 49'ers, although I haven't read the book. But what I am reffering too is that if CX decided to lay an icadet off in their first year as SO I would be damn sure that the forgiveable loan does not have to be repaid. The 49'ers was also a one off incident and to my knowledge hasn't been a reoccuring nightmare. Again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I do think that it is unfortunate the T's & C's regarding housing have changed so much so that it leaves old cadets in a poorer position (no pun intended).

In some way I do hope that the other noobs out there appreciate your info despite the abrasiveness, otherwise we would not have a devils advocate or a sounding board. So thanks in advance, and apologies for any future mud slinging I may do.
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 10:02
  #3289 (permalink)  
 
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Any chance we can have a separate CX bashing thread aside one that is of some use? The issues have been well documented, and I think most people are now in a position to make an informed decision from the previous 171 pages of the same argument.

Oh and Dan Buster, comment 3393, think before you speak. What a patronising and flippant comment. Advice if fine (however much it may have dragged) but you are in no position to judge a potential iCadet's intellect.

And for God's sake, don't turn this post into yet another excuse for an argument. I won't be the first and I'm sure I wont be the last to request that we pull this back onto topic.
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 10:41
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Yes, the 45k package looks good on paper, but the living costs is what got me worried. My goal is to invest in real estate and the earlier I can start, the better it would be. So, I would rather have a flying job that gives me plenty of savings than worry about big shiny jets at the moment.

CB, I did read in one of your earlier posts that you did the CX interview for DESO but declined it because they offered you the icadet scheme. How is the DESO scheme different? (No info. available on the website and some of the other posts are too old).
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 11:20
  #3291 (permalink)  
 
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It was CX CoS08 (Conditions of Service, effective 2008). In short, the housing allowance after just 3 years is what an iCadet will eventually get only when they become Capt (after 15 to even 22 years, as per the AOA published figures). Under CoS08 after approx 5 years the housing will be around $60k HKD, and grows to around $80k+ as seniority & time in company grows. (Someone like DB could give the precise numbers and time scales). The CoS08 housing is factored to CPI so it is "net gain neutral", ie it does not erode.

To quote the exact words told to us when we arrived in the board room for the introductory speech when referring to the housing allowance:

"CX believe we should pay you the housing allowance that we do so you do not suffer a loss of lifestyle by moving to HK to work for us"

Obviously they do not believe that anymore. So, an iCadet housing allowance topping out at $36k NOT factored to CPI vs $80k+ that IS factored to CPI?? Multiply that over a career = a damn insult.

If your goal is to invest in real estate then you will need to have approx. a 30% deposit for a property in HK (part of it can be as low as 10%). I used a 550-600 sq ft apartment to base my calculations on that will cost around $5 million HKD. (Ball park figures used, but relatively accurate). Do the maths based on incomings, outgoings, tax, cost of living, an eroding base salary due part of your HKPLA not factored to CPI, etc.... Again, LONG TERM the deal is a pitfall & and an insult. Your monthly salary & therefore your capacity to save erodes & is not recoverable as per the terms of the contract.

Too many or most wannabes posting here do not consider any of these "details".
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 19:09
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@CB, I've followed this thread for some time and for some reason your comment about housing not linked to CPI really hit home (like a light bulb moment), I've just realised how difficult it would be in future to save and to potentially raise a family. It's really has given me some perspective and laid to rest some of my lingering doubts about the program.

Also out of curiosity, because of the way CX like to change CoS and not adhering to contract agreements, wouldn't that mean any future potential cadets could have their contracts mix and matched as they please? e.g. housing allowance removed from their current contract?
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Old 29th Oct 2011, 21:36
  #3293 (permalink)  
 
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Job security

A maximum of 3 months on any contract in Cx.
As proven previously, as short as 1 day.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 02:49
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Thierry: as per DB's post: YES. Your contract is a loose "guide" at best & is treated with the same respect they respect their pilots with - disposable & replaceable at a whim. Toilet paper has more use & purpose in their eyes. Not my words, but proven facts.

Just as Davis' "Handling the Big Jets" & "How to Pass the CX Interview" by Capts X, Y & Z are considered but two compulsory reading & study materials for the CX interview, John Warham has written a book of equal if not of greater importance that must be considered compulsory reading: "The 49ers - The True Story".

One's past behaviour is the strongest indictor of one's future behaviour. Why do you think CX ask you questions like, "Tell us about a time when....."? CX have on more than one occasion forced pilots onto a new CoS contract of lesser terms and conditions with a "SIGN OR BE FIRED" approach. At the very least those who refused to sign lost positions such as training Capts, or basings, or basing opportunities, etc.

So what if you can recite the name of the step-son's nephew who once had a beer with Frank Whittle or the mathematical theorem from first principles the obstacle clearance calculations in your CX interview? If you don't know how the company you seek to work for treats its employees & the true value of your contract then what's the point?

But then consider what these management types (pilots and others) have received... Nothing but massive pay rises and bonuses at the expense & slaughter of the pilots (& FA's, etc) remuneration packages.

This iCadet program is set up as a money grab: nothing more, nothing less. Those who see it as a "great opportunity" refuse to see or appreciate these FACTS, let alone read the truths that cannot of been written or published if they were not 100% true for fear of legal action.

READ WARHAM'S BOOK, "THE 49ers - THE TRUE STORY"!


People do more reading & research before buying a plasma vs LCD flatscreen than they do about a company, a company culture & contract that they are considering giving their next 30-40 years to. Ask yourself, has the company over time ever increased pilots T&C's or actively pursued by bullying & immoral means & methods to successfully reduce them?

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 30th Oct 2011 at 03:24.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 04:23
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How to pass the CX interview

Is the 11th edition most current??
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 08:55
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No one has yet attempted to answer my question which is...

"what other options are out there for people with no money to their names?"
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 09:16
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Go and get a job - any job. Dig holes as a labourer or work behind a bar, or do whatever to save a few dollars. The best job you could possibly land would be working in a hangar or at an airline Ops dept or for a flying school in any capacity so you're at least in the right environment. Aviation is your best field - naturally. Take out a loan to finish your training or to use to hit the road to look for a flying job. Do not quit and do not give up. All the while STUDY, STUDY, STUDY. That costs nothing. That's why I said in the short term it is damn hard but in the long term you are miles ahead professionally & financially.

That is your answer.

The jobs WILL NOT come to you and there will be more than a few knock-backs. Too many sit on their keyboard & moan about being unemployed but don't hit the road and knock on doors. Emails are but one impersonal and static means. A face to face introduction, CV in hand accompanied by handshake seems to work wonders, for any job.... Go figure.

You may have to leave home or leave your immediate country. So? You want to be an "international" airline pilot so what if you have to pack your bags & live elsewhere for a period of time to make your dream a reality?? I did it as have 1000's of pilots before me. No big deal if it is where your heart is or this "passion" so many iCadet wannabes speak about yet don't show or back it up.

Pilots did this for decades prior to soul-selling "iCadetships" being introduced. But now such a thing is deemed "too hard" by too many when there is a cheaper, nastier and "easier" way. We've all repeated the saying "If it looks too good to be true" or "Nothing in this world is free" yet those same people advocate this CEP.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 30th Oct 2011 at 09:37.
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 15:35
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I put a post on page 168 about my thoughts as an ex CX kid working for the airline.

Many others have taken the time to help those interested. To have a tag "CXA330" or whatever shows you are determined to work for CX but not do any favors for your industry.

Not to pick on that guy but take your integrity before anything else, listen to those that work there and have a greater understanding then anyone with SJS.

Make an informed decision based of what information you can find, not what information you prefer to choose.

REMEMBER - The old "CX are the best of the best" line doesn't work when they take anyone willing to sign a piece of paper.

What CX was in 1985, 1995, 2000 - 2005 (Buy "The 49ers") - must read, 2012 are completely separate places.

If your sole goal in life is to fly a widebody with no take offs of landings and wear a nice uniform then you are in the wrong industry and will not get any respect out of those that you will share a career with (have fun trying to find someone to have a beer with).

End Rant, AGAIN (**** someone think about it please!).

If you found this too long and didn't read it - find another career
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 15:39
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Wonderful opinion!
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Old 30th Oct 2011, 21:26
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