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Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

South Asia and Far East Wannabes A forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong-based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries.

Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

Old 19th Oct 2011, 19:21
  #3201 (permalink)  
 
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Hello all....

I'm looking for a MR. FUSION who posted on here several months ago... if you're reading this please send me a PM.

OR

Is there anyone on here who has the simulator profile for the simulator eval? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could send me a PM with this info. Thanks!
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Old 19th Oct 2011, 21:51
  #3202 (permalink)  
 
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This is not "back in the day", this was the package on offer up to what, 2010? And it is not a case of " well maybe its not great, but its better than...."
We ARE trying to discourage you! You are entering a dead end job, with no financial reward for that sacrifice, as you give Cathay the best years of your life accumulating experience that is unusable anywhere else.

Get a clue guys!
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 02:04
  #3203 (permalink)  
 
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And the sheer fact that your intention is to discourage us rather than inform us is enough for me to look elsewhere for information. Thanks for making your ulterior motives clear Ash.

It feels like we're pawns in a bigger game here. Perhaps if enough wannabees are discouraged from applying to Cathay, existing Cathay pilots can maintain their current quality of life.

I for one will certainly not halt my career progression so that a Cathay pilot can make a statement to management.

Inform us objectively, or get off the thread.
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 02:31
  #3204 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Guys,

I would really like to hear from anyone in Sydney who has a stage 1 interview in Brisbane on the 4th of November or round that time and who is interested in a study buddy, two heads/minds are better than one.

PLS PM me if you meet the above minimum requirements.

cheers.
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 08:47
  #3205 (permalink)  
 
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and the next GFC just around the corner
The 2008 GFC never ended, it's only progressing. We saw the U.S banking system collapse in 2008, now we are seeing a global debt crisis and a currency crisis, it won't just be major banks collapsing in the future but we will see countries default. It's game over.
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 13:33
  #3206 (permalink)  
 
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I am a current "iCadet".

What current CX pilots are saying here is very true.

At the moment my lifestyle is borderline satisfactory. It's certainly not great, or even "good". Eventually you will aspire for it to be more than satisfactory but under these terms it never will be. Please seriously consider exactly what I am saying because CX is a massive long-term commitment.

I'm not going to go into why its rubbish, for example the lack of job satisfaction as an SO, taking forever to upgrade, not being able to afford to do anything remotely interesting in Hong Kong, the fact your partner will almost certainly not want to live here etc etc. There are some positives, but the negatives outweight them ten-fold for me.

Looking back, I was incredibly naive to believe all the bull**** they told me about basings, upgrades etc. Its nothing like I thought it would be, or wanted it to be.

If you aspire to have any kind of lifestyle long-term then I strongly urge you to consider every other option before consider coming here.
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 14:20
  #3207 (permalink)  
 
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Post Phase 1 in London

If anybody is going for the selection on 15 November please PM me so we can exchange infos and tips.

To the one who keep saying to look somewhere else as conditions ar S**t I say that I'd rather be in the flight deck than ,as is the case, in the cargo hold humping bags, if you have 5000h and a type it is probably not a good choice but if you don't than there aint many options out there.
Just my point of view.
All the best to everyone.
C84
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 14:21
  #3208 (permalink)  
 
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First off, Dan_buster, how do you mean "informing you guys objectively"? What are your tangible supporting evidence for what you are trying to say on here? I think up to this point, a lot of things presented by individuals such as you on here are subjective in nature.

Secondly, ASH, I think most people here can appreciate your help to some extent. However, the truth of the matter is, everyone should still do their own due diligence. I think anyone who comes to a board such as this to make a life changing decision and takes the advice of anyone without doing their own research (ie personally talk to HR etc) should be labeled as dumb.

Third, in case if anyone forgets, we are in probably one of the worst financial mess since the great depression! High unemployment in Europe and US, now they are saying Asia/China, your target markets, will be affected! I am sure there are tons of young men and women who are in need of a job right now. It doesn’t matter how bad a package is, it is better than being unemployed, living at home and bumming off of your parents at 25. Also, if you think the package given to current iCadets are so bad, how do you think the other guy, who took out $100,000 in student loans to learn how to fly from no hours to a CPL and is now flight instructing, making poverty level feels? Hey, not only do you live poorly, you have a mountain of debt to pay back… Great!! What about the other dude who is now flying commuters making $20-25K and “hot racking” with his buddies as they can only afford a one bedroom apt in San Francisco when three or four of them get together? How about the airlines that are gracious enough to let low time pilots sit in the right seat for a “measly” sum of up to $50,000 with no guaranteed job once they complete the 500 hour "program"? Is that better than the iCadet package???

Lastly, to all the pilots and iCadets of Cathay. If things are so bad there, if the management and pay is so bad, you do know where the door is right???
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 18:20
  #3209 (permalink)  
 
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You need to read a post two above yours Mad-Dog. Most of the guys posting are on the old package, as am I. We stay here as the housing allowance allows us to do ok to good financially. If there was no housing almost every last expat based in HKG would quit, honestly. I know I would. Current icadets are here as they have not been for very long, just spent a year training for this job, believed everything they got told in the interview, are chasing the carrot and shiny jet still. The longest serving icadet I expect is about 2 years as an SO.

anyone who comes to a board such as this to make a life changing decision and takes the advice of anyone without doing their own research (ie personally talk to HR etc) should be labeled as dumb.
What the guy posted two above you:

Looking back, I was incredibly naive to believe all the bull**** they told me about basings, upgrades etc. Its nothing like I thought it would be, or wanted it to be.
You could be stuck in HKG with no life, no relationship as can't afford one, unable to enjoy life for 10 years. Seriously it could be 10 years before you can move on. 6-7 years as an SO and the rest to get enough time to get a job back home. I know local guys do ok but that is because HKG is their home.

Obviously what is best for you is what you should do but do not think that people on here are all about protecting their own package, they are not, it is about trying to let you guys know what you are getting into as HR and CX bend the truth. Recently guys have been told 18 month to upgrade, I am pushing 4 years and they are going to be changing the training system SOs do to make the HKCAD happy with the SO rating for longer than 5 years which is the legal limit of a P2X rating currently. Basings, people have been told they can get a base when they are an FO, Auckland is about a 12 year wait as an FO so you have to pass up your command to go there, Europe not much better. To get a London base as a Captain you had to join in the mid to late 80s.

Yeah have a chat with HR and base your decision on that.

When you come to HKG for an interview, if you get one, go down to the bar one evening and have a chat with some current CX guys, they will be happy to help as most are a descent bunch and see what they have to say.

Last edited by SloppyJoe; 20th Oct 2011 at 18:31.
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Old 20th Oct 2011, 19:38
  #3210 (permalink)  
 
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So what does "Ok" to "good" mean? What is "good" or "ok" to you may not be to the person standing next to you. It seems with the package they are offering now, you can get by on your own, maybe not "well", but it beats being unemployed, living at home with your parents which by the way, is the case for 5 million Americans between ages 25 to 35 right now. What kind of life is that? I think right now, Cathay's icadet would good to them as it is a guaranteed job for six years (ironically that bond is also a guarantee you will likely have a job for next six years in these turbulent and unpredictable times)

Maybe I am looking at this with too much business sense (maybe because I am finance guy working for a well hated Wall St. I-bank), but what incentives does Cathay have right now to pay someone "the old package"? Is their pool of applicants drying up? Do they not have to worry about potentially a second financial crisis that is looming (this time, govt debt which is 100 times worse than Lehman). Doesn't Cathay have to make back the billions they lost during the 2008-2009 turmoil so they have a war chest that can sustain them when they lose billions again?

Your notion of not being able to enjoy life for next 10 years etc, with due respect, is it your own personal experience? How can you say someone else would go down that same road? What do you base it off of? Frankly that doesn't have any meanings to me as I control my own destiny and happiness as everyone else should.

By the way, so are now admitting you want to build hours and jump ship, was that your original plan at Cathay? If that was the case, nothing against you as that is your prerogative and how you want to control your life, but I am sure Cathy would have been thrilled to find that out back when they hired you. Maybe in a senese, they got screwed too?

So regarding HR “bending” the truth, you don't think other companies/industries no matter airline, banking, construction etc etc do that? Promises of bonuses, promotions etc that never happen? First, don’t expect anything not written into a contract will happen. This is very common with bonuses which people get screwed on or told they will become a manager "in two years" or whatever. Did you or other cadets make Cathay put into writing when you would expect to upgrade? Second, maybe Cathay had told you what they plan to do in future but their plans changed because of changes in the business environment? (Like company wants to give you bonus but they can’t because they lost money for a particular year). Bottom line, don’t expect something if it is not in writing.

FYI, I love the pay for training programs, how they advertise. “If you pay us $50K, and you finish the program “satisfactorily” after 500 hours, we “may” offer you a permanent position.” Ha! They will really hire the next sucker who is willing to pay $50K to fly in the right seat! Now that is “bending” the truth at its finest.

I think with working/flying for Cathay, you have to expect to be in Hong Kong for your whole career. CX is an airline based in a territory of the PRC and also with at least 29% owned by Air China. If you want to be based out of London, go apply with BA, want to be based in US, choose one of the US carrier. If you chose Cathay, expect to be in Hong Kong, simple as that. Why would you expect to be based in Europe or anywhere not in Asia when you work for an carrier based in Asia?
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 04:58
  #3211 (permalink)  
 
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Every bit of "constructive" advice has been soundly rejected by starry eyed youngins. What more can one say than has already been said.

So....I guess.....enough said!
One definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

It feels like we're pawns in a bigger game here. Perhaps if enough wannabees are discouraged from applying to Cathay, existing Cathay pilots can maintain their current quality of life.
That is exactly what they are trying, and repeatedly failing, to do. Of course current Cathay pilots have a union and they could take some action themselves, but that might expose them to some risk, so they'd rather you sacrifice yourself to help them out.

I for one will certainly not halt my career progression so that a Cathay pilot can make a statement to management.

Inform us objectively, or get off the thread.
Good luck with that.

Last edited by etrang; 21st Oct 2011 at 05:08.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 06:51
  #3212 (permalink)  
 
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Since the point of this thread is to determine financial viability of the current contract, I'd rather pay attention to a pilot with a banking background than a sarcastic cynic.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 07:57
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is the case for 5 million Americans between ages 25 to 35 right now. What kind of life is that?
You have to look at this specific industry as it requires lots of specific skills and training. There are jobs out there for pilots on A320 aircraft offering a tax free salary of over US$18,000 a month. There is a lack of qualified experienced pilots. CX could if they wanted offer a better package and attract quality experienced pilots but they chose not to as it is easier to pay a starry eyed wannabe well below market rates. They are not short of cash, they are making a fortune but finance guys like you have decided it best to get the cheapest guys possible. This is wrong, it removes jobs from people who have experience and will cause them huge problems further down the road. Many senior pilots are against this form of recruiting, cadets should be a part of it but in proportion. Expat cadets should be paid an expat package.


So what does "Ok" to "good" mean? What is "good" or "ok" to you may not be to the person standing next to you.
You judge yourself on those around you, at CX most people are on the same deal so you see how others are doing and those ahead of you and its comforting to know that you and your family will be ok. Same with friends in HKG, most are on better packages or similar as that is what it takes in my opinion (yes) for an expat with a family to be happy in HKG. Most icadets who have been here for a while are finding it hard.

Doesn't Cathay have to make back the billions they lost during the 2008-2009 turmoil so they have a war chest that can sustain them when they lose billions again?
No, they are an extremely well off company. They have already made as PROFIT far far more than they lost during 08-09. As a wall street guy am sure you can find this info.

By the way, so are now admitting you want to build hours and jump ship, was that your original plan at Cathay?
Absolutely not. I enjoy my job and the time off it gives me. My career with Cathay will provide a comfortable and enjoyable life for me, my wife and kids. If they decide to reduce the deal that I signed up for then absolutely as it will only get worse and it is not worth living in HKG on a sub standard contract. I would rather do the same job at home for the same money.

First, don’t expect anything not written into a contract will happen.
Secondly, with Cathay don't expect anything that IS written into your contract will happen.


I am not trying to put you off. If you have 0 to very little time flying it is without doubt one of the best ways to get into aviation, a pretty boring way but still on of the best. Training paid for, job at the end if you pass, progression into a widebody in 7ish years, faster than through the GA route. Good aircraft, usually good people you work with, professional atmosphere. There are many good points but please don't think you are getting a good deal once you have experience you are not and NEVER will when at CX unless they up the package once icadets start to leave with experience. But this as you say is not written down so can't count on it, expect to be in HKG, like you said, for your whole career on a very poor package for the job you are employed to do.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 15:03
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It's not good

You can 'survive' as a single guy in HK on the current package but you can't support a family on it. Listen to the people on this forum who already live here.
Try looking up the cost of housing in HK for a 3 bedroom 1000sqft apartment in the cheaper areas of HK like Tung Chung or Disco Bay. This is the minimum you would want as a Westerner and see what you get.. The numbers don't add up.
All the iCadets I know are either actively looking for other jobs already or will leave as soon as their 6 years are up and they have marketable skills. The only ones who will stay are the ones who have family here or daddies who are Captains.
It's not good.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 21:58
  #3215 (permalink)  
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What is amusing is meeting all the icadet candidates at interview and everyone ignoring the big issue of pay, tax and living costs! On deeper inspection it usually means that the candidate already has a place in HK or has affluent parents who are already established in HK ergo living conditions not an issue. For us other lesser mortals it's a bit more grim...

Dan Buster et al, have all given the skinny from the inside but even the experienced guys, already in steady jet jobs at home and married with kids are tripping over themselves for a shot at the icadet scheme - it is rather bizarre if you ask me. Guys... have a word with yourselves, please!!

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that applying to CX is a cracking way of building interview experience! Just don't get carried away - that's my advice.

VFE.
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Old 21st Oct 2011, 23:30
  #3216 (permalink)  
 
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Hi there, good night to all!
What I have just read is that Cathay Pacific cadet program is not as easy and promising as it looks. I am interested as I am single, 25 years old, almost finishing a degree in Law in Spain. Here everything is crap. When you want a first time job they tell you: 1000 € a month (if possible), workshift 40 hour a week (eventhough those 40's go all they way up to at least, 10 to 20 hours more, UNPAID ) and of course, a looooong wait to get a better salary.
Then I find CP. Then I said: lets check at pprune. A-5, sunk ! Last 3 pages of valuable information , though this info is really disappointing. 5 years to upgrade to FO ??? So, if I get the chance and taking a very big guess, I enter CP at 27, finish course at 29, fly SO for 5 years, so it takes me to 34-35 to be FO ??? My god ! How about flying for another company then...?

Any piece of more detailed wisdom will be appreciated

EDIT: also, another question. When you are SO, what happens with flown hours? Do they count? If they do, do they count and are useable in case you would like to fly for another airline in the future?

Cheers

Last edited by FoxtrotCharlie7; 22nd Oct 2011 at 00:49.
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Old 22nd Oct 2011, 02:48
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@ Dan_Buster
If you have read my original messages, my advice here is not to listen people such as yourself who speak negatively of the cadet program at CX, rather that one should do their own due diligence as everyone’s personal situation is different.


Coincidentally, isn’t one of the biggest gripes here how “bad” financially the new iCadet package is? Wouldn’t a finance person like myself be perfect to chime into this?
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Old 22nd Oct 2011, 03:53
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@sloppy joe:
There are several industries that require a lot of technical skills, and many that are much more complicated than piloting an aircraft that the salary (especially for entry level position) are significantly lower than what was offered a few years ago such as IT, Engineering. Keep in mind, there are still tons of people, a lot of recent college graduates out there who are unemployed. Pilots are no different, there are tons of licensed CPL and APL in the US (approx 125K CPL and 144K ATP (not including CPL) as provided by FAA) , the supply is great especially since there are still furloughs at major airlines and many qualified commuter pilots waiting for their shot at the majors. Additionally, flying is not what it was decades ago where a piloting requires significant experience and skill. With the current automation, piloting has becoming much easier and safer, hence why there are so many ab initio programs such as one at CX. Besides, for SO, isn’t their primary duties to monitor the system and radios, literally babysit the aircraft? I do not think you need much skill for that and you can almost pick any somewhat intelligent college grad to learn what the knobs and buttons on the MCP, FMC etc does. If you think CX is the only airline to look for no experience or inexperienced pilots, I can tell you several major airlines in Asia, Europe that would gladly take someone with little or no experience and pay “below market” rates, some you even have the honor of paying them! By the way, where did you see these jobs that pay $18K a month? This wouldn’t be airlines in China that require captains right? Please let me know where if not as I know several people who are A320 FO’s looking for jobs right now.
Just because a company which is flush with cash, does not mean they have to start being generous. Being fiscally responsible is most important with running any business as it is all about the bottomline. Business 101, increase revenue and cut expense (highest expenses generally come from salary, wages, “loaded costs” which is benefits etc). Wages should be adjusted via market rates like what most companies/industries are doing right now. If you set a low salary, qualified people are willing to take it, by all means, you get as many as you can, simple law of supply and demand. If the new wannabe’s don’t like the package offered to them, they can say “screw you” and walk the other way. Tell me, what is wrong with CX or any other company trying to save (cut) costs? By the way, there was a post not long ago on this thread, a guy applied to SQ and apparently the salary is lower than what CX is offering. You can say all you want, but the cost of living in Singapore is higher than in Hong Kong. I do not know if you see on the news in Hong Kong about this “Occupy Wall Street” movement. It is really about a bunch of people (actually a lot of them ex-hippies and losers) who are discontent about big corporations. If you follow the news here in US, you will see a lot of corporations are making money, most with record amounts of cash but no one is hiring. At least Cathay can say they are hiring. Besides, FYI, the CX loss for 2009 was approx $1.1 billion, albeit they did make back what was lost in 2010 and likely 2011 (results not avail yet), the industry is forecasting a pretty turbulent 2012 for the airlines. Let me ask you, would this be a good time to start paying more money or being fiscally irresponsible knowing 2012 is likely to be another bad year and further stagnation coming?
One of the things I keep hearing on here is how difficult it is to get by in Hong Kong on the current iCadet package. I think it can generally be agreed here that an SO in the first few years would make about HK$500,000/yr before any bonuses and taxes. However has anyone actually considered the fact that the GDP per capital in HK is approximately HK $250K/yr? Another words, an iCadet in Hong Kong is being paid twice the average person in HK. Before you start to compare to any other airlines etc, here in US, an entry level job for a pilot (after investing close to $100K in training) is a flight instructor making at best $20K or about half of the average a person makes in the US. Which airline can you name where someone with no time or “low time” makes more than the GDP per capita of the country the airline is based in?
Regarding the contract, CX has been keeping up with their end correct? If not, I would suggest that they be sued in court. I have done enough business in HK to know they have one of the best legal system in Asia (probably the world) as they follow the British common law system. Be glad you are not in half the countries in Asia where a contract has no meaning.
I like your last paragraph by the way, makes good sense.
Have a good weekend.
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Old 22nd Oct 2011, 04:09
  #3219 (permalink)  
 
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@OneBarWonder:
I think you said a key phrase in your post and that is “minimum you would want as a Westerner…”
In my post above, an iCadet package is around HK$500,000/yr before bonuses and taxes. This is twice the GDP per capita of HK$250K/yr. Another words, you are making twice what an average person in Hong Kong is expected to make.
With working and living overseas, one has to be prepared to embrace the culture and living standards of that country. If you go anywhere outside N America/Europe and expect to live as a westerner, you are going to pay through the nose. In reality, it is not the company’s problem one refuses to live the local standard as an expat. It is really difficult to say you cannot “survive” or “live” in HK on the current iCadet package as you are already being paid twice what an average person makes. The iCadet package is doable, the question is, are the wannabes prepared to live like they are a local, eat the street vendor foods and put aside their western expectation?
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Old 22nd Oct 2011, 04:21
  #3220 (permalink)  
 
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SQ Vs CX

As correctly pointed out, it is in fact true with the situation in SQ. To say the least, I would not be looking in here if SQ provided a fantastic package. In fact, over the years, the expat community has been dwindled to almost negligible with foreigners taking local terms to remain in the company.

SQ has since started major recruitment from India for cadets and that is the sign to come. As a comparison, A wide body Captain in SQ makes less than an SFO, not counting in bonuses and different tax rates. Cost of living is also high in Singapore and it definitely is a much much smaller place to live in. Just for a comparison, you will require to buy a Certificate of Entitlement just to own a car above 1600cc. At current rate, its approximately 60K USD without even the car price yet!

Not to go about a major comparison between the two, but I think even in Asia, major airlines are losing out to pay packages to LCC and Budget operations like TigerAirways and Jetstarasia in terms of pay packages. Command comes quicker because guys I know are flying 90-100hrs a month and have to be throttled back to not bust the 1000hr/yr restrictions in Singapore.

By all standards, the industry practice of paying great expat rates looks archaic and would definitely be revised as it is evident. I would definitely look at it in a long term perspective to join a company that you see yourself in for at least 20yrs and there is really no gripes with being rewarded only after 12-15yrs when loyalty is not is question. A trait so often missing these days.
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