Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

[LazyEights]

Woefully inadequate

Dan Buster - Interesting choice of words. I just wrote exactly that in a long article highlighting some hard truth about what CX is not telling you guys who are thinking about joining.

Nutshell - The CEP package is very difficult to live on in Hong Kong to the point where you will be financially handcuffing yourselves by signing on to it. CX is trying to set the bar as low as it can and is seemingly not informing candidates of the real situation the regarding cost of living (which they really don't have any concept of on the CEP salary sale) and the ramifications of the contract it is binding you to. Tread very carefully, ask as many questions as you can and do as much research as you can because it'll be your signature at the bottom of the page.

CX-A330 / Your wife will likely have a hard time getting a job as a nurse in HK if she doesn't speak Cantonese, Mandarin and English. I have no idea about her license transfer-ability but with doctors, it's not that straight forward so assume with nurses it'll be the same. HK is notorious for wanting to assess professional skills themselves rather than just converting them from other states. It's a way to generate income for the Government.

As for buying a house in HK - unless your wife wife is going to earn a lot (which she's not as a nurse) or you have bags of money, you will not be able to purchase a house for many years. I don't know your expectations but to own something even halfway ok, you will need an absolute minimum of 2.5-3M HK dollars cash as a down payment.

Suggest you and all "FH Wannabes" read the article on previous page, consider it and digest the information within. It is provided by current CEP's who know the ins and outs of living in HK and how difficult it is.

Lazy - Out

[mtc]

Thanks for the post it paints a good picture of what to expect. A very dark and depressing picture.

What still gets me is how they would hire DEFOs when there are SOs that hold requirements for DEFO if they just came off the street. It seems crazy and is just asking for disgruntled, angry pilots.

[miguli]

Why not?

I have been following this thread for two months now, that is since I learned that I would not likely see a pay-rise at my current job as PA-34 flight instructor for, oh well ever. That, by the way, was also the trigger for me to apply for Cathay.

With all the experts here I would just lie to ask you to put yourselves into my shoes for just one minute and consider the options, whichafter you are more than welcome to give any suggestion you feel I should consider:

Facts:
- 39 year old male (I know, if I was a female I would've been hired long time ago but I'm not)
- 1600 hours total now, last flight 3 hours ago, accumulating at 50-75 hours MEP each month, 1185 hours dual given of which 710 in Seneca III/Seminole. However at the moment I feel that I can wipe my bottom every evening with the hours I accumulate as none of that is is multi-crew.
- I have been to Hong Kong 8 times now, I love the city for several reasons and I am dying to get out of the western-European ****hole I live in now.
- My wife has a very reputable profession which practically allows her to get a job and live anywhere in the world. She is willing to move to Asia anytime.
- If it makes any difference, we have no kids and will most likely never have. Would be interesting to know if this makes a difference at an interview. From someone who can give an impartial, purely rational answer, that is.
- As an option, I am seriously considering feeding myself on rice alone for two years and getting a 737NG type rating but I am curious if that would help at all. There have been some instances who seem to just want the type rating and not the notorious "500 hours on type". Would I be flushing my wallet down the drain again or is it something to consider? A lot of people here feel that a wannabe-first officer should still not have to pay for his type rating but I want to be a realist in this matter.
- Oh, if it is still unclear to someone reading this, I am willing to sacrifice pay, social life (again, the wife's work has taught me a new meaning to the term "social life") and friends in order to do what I have always wanted to for a living.
- I HAVE thought about it, long and hard; bottom line is that I don't see why a man in my situation should NOT take this job? What guarantees do I have that there will ever be a better one while I'm still in contention? I currently earn 25000 HKD/month and the offer is 45000, basic math tells me I'm a fool not to take it even if the money is not my priority.

Pessimists, now is your turn...

[Jagdfalke]

You are only a few hundred hours from being able to apply with an airline. You have enough twin time to land you a regional/turboprop job. The Cathay Cadetship would be an ok option for somebody who cannot afford to pay for their training, but anyone who has enough experience to be eligible for the Cadetship transition training can probably do better elsewhere.

[LazyEights]

Miguli - Let me address some of your points.

Age 39 - I hate to say this but you may be getting a little long in the tooth although with the rate of take up at this level, the desperate may be willing to accept the desperate. Sorry to put it like that.

HK - It's a great city....... to visit. It's a great city in which to live....... if you can afford it. I don't know what your wife does, but unless it's a significant earner, in region of +40k/mth. You will be in the red each month. Take into account you will have periods of time off as an SO where you may want to travel. If your wife is 9-5'ing, she will not be joining you on those travels much. Usual leave allowance in HK offices is 10 days/yr.

Kids - As you are male, CX probably doesn't care, as i expect with other airlines. Probably a small upside because you'll be even cheaper for them to hire.

737NG - Why? Who are you applying to? Only HK Airlines flies them as a HK carrier. If you're applying to them, imagine may be a plus. If you're shooting for any other carrier, save your money. You're going to need it.

Social Life - Way to enter mid-life. Sounds like fun.... As an SO, you are a cruise pilot and radio operator. Even in the cruise you will always be PNF. Stick time = 0hrs. The novelty wears off very quickly and you will miss your Seminole like your first love.

Bottom Line - Yep it's more money but that's not your priority. Who knows, it may not be more money when the wash is done. Fair call, your options are limited at this stage. I still think you're selling out all your work to date for a very cheap price and do believe you will experience a pretty poor lifestyle in HK. It's a real pressure cooker and can't believe that there are not better, more respectful packages available to you. Corporate perhaps?

[LazyEights]

@BaronBlue - Interest rate is P-2.5ish. P being the Prime Interest Rate which is sitting at 5.25% now. Banks will loan 60% of their valuation of the property for properties valued below 8M. Above 8M it's 50%. Typically bank valuations are lower than asking prices so you need to fill the gap with cash. Maximum total loan:income ratio is 50%. ie. if you earn 40k/mth your max payments can not be more than 20k/mth. A typical example below for an unrenovated, old 500sq/ft apartment in town;

Price : 5M
Valuation : 4.2M
Downpayment : 1.68M (40% of 4.2M) + 800k (gap) = 2.48M
Agent Commission : 50k (1%)
Govt Tax : 150k (3%)
Legal Fees : ~30k (varies)
Renovations : 500k
Total Cash Required: 3.21M
Monthly Payments : 13,350/mth over 20 years

[miguli]

LazyEights,

737NG is an option if for some reason I do not end up in HK. I would then seriously consider getting a type rating as I am a realist too and see how airlines are leaning towards applicants paying for it. I know I am making a lot of people scream but I like to face the facts.

If it wasn't obvious enough from my last post, I am ready to sacrifice my 200k€ yearly earnings for something much less as long as I get to do what I was meant to do. If I have to start off as a relief pilot for some years then so be it. It's still a job in an airplane.

[miguli]

Jagdfalke,

Can you please give me just one hint where to look for a regional/turboprop job with say 2000 hrs total and 1000 MEP?
Everywhere I look I see the notorious 500 hours multi-crew requirement but don't see any feasible way of getting it.
As I said, I am seriously considering getting myself a type rating since, as I understand, some airlines (Ryanair and Primera come to mind) are already hiring those who are willing to pay for their type rating.
I have already paid for everything myself, why break the tradition

[tupps]

For anyone with facebook

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[GlassesJacketShirt]

so is the general conensus on this thread that CX only hires cadets to become a s/o for 4-6 years then fail them at the JF/O upgrade?

[LazyEights]

GJS - No I don't think that is an accurate summary at all.

[VFE]

But CX do have a bit of a bad reputation for checking instead of training, and certainly the impression one gets at interview is that its very much a "prove yourself to us" approach as opposed to a "show us yourself and we will show who we are going forwards" type affair. 'Job' interviews should ber a two way street. Its an opportunity for a company to sell itself to you and obviously for you to sell yourself to the company. Nowhere did I feel that CX did much to impress other than prop me up in their own hotel (after tapping me up for HKD200 deposit which they never mentioned in their pre interview communications) and fly us there and back. Big willies. Their attitude at interview was very "do as you're told, serve yourself and then bugger off". Punchy corporate nonesense in other words. No sense of real welcome to CX, do you wanna cuppa old chap? Just sit down and dodge the bullets we're gonna fire. I think anyone who walks away feeling that its a warm company has had a seriously bad upbrining in life.

So, would they groom you with warm mentoring expertise, or put the fear of God into you regarding upgrade failures?

You decide!

VFE.

[LazyEights]

Don't let GJS start a strain that suggests CX are out to fail you on your upgrade. That's not the case at all. Just know that it might be a while before you actually get to your upgrade, by which time you'll be in some serious debt.

@Miguli - So be it but there are better flying jobs out there where you don't have to sell your soul for little return in the medium term. If you're willing to drop the salary, go fly something that you actually get to fly.

[Wallstreet]

Living costs in Honk Kong

Hello,

Despite reading a whole lot of the Cathay thread here, I'm still considering applying for the cadet program.
I am trying to find out how the costs of living are in HK for a single.
It seems to me there are quit a lot of cheap appartments, but I wonder if any extra costs are attached when you hire such a appartment. I see a lot of appartments in the range of 10.000 HKD.

But I wonder if there are extra costs in hiring such an appartment.
For example,

Management Fee
Government Rate
Government Rent

What rates are to be expected, and are there more costs that I'm not aware of ?

I have also found that indeed food is very expensive in Hong Kong, but you can save a hell of a lot by shopping in local supermarkets rahter then the ''expat'' supermarkets ?

I would like to make a list of living costs to see what you would have left to live from after your normal expensis.

45.000 pay
- 7000 tax
- 10.000 appartment
- 3.500 food ?
- 1.500 insurance ?
- 5000 transport through HK ?
_____________________________
that would leave: 18,000 HKD ?

Please note that I have never been in Honk Kong and I have just quessed these figures, and I may have forgot to include costs ?

Hope some of you living in Honk Kong can help me with this..

[404 Titan]

Wallstreet

Your cost of expenses isn’t anywhere near accurate/complete. I posted this a while ago. So even though the pay is accurate the expenses are now higher. The principle though remains the same. These expences are for a single person. What happens when you have a partner, get married and have kids. You need to think long term before coming here, not just at what appears to you as free flying lessons and an easy way into an airline.

Taxable Income

HK$422040 SO annual salary
HK$ 35170 Annual Discretionary Bonus (If Paid)
HK$ 27642 Hourly Duty Pay based on 84 hrs/month less 3 weeks annual leave
HK$120000 Hong Kong Pilot Allowance
HK$604852 Total income
HK$108000 Less basic tax free threshold
HK$496852 Taxable income

Tax calculation for first year of service.

HK$ 800 First 40000 @ 2%
HK$ 2800 Next 40000 @ 7%
HK$ 4800 Next 40000 @ 12%
HK$64065 Remaining 376852 @ 17%
HK$72465 Total Tax (Based on Annual Discretionary Bonus being paid)

HK$66486 Total Tax (No Annual Discretionary Bonus)

In you first year of employment in Hong Kong you also need to budget for Provisional Tax, i.e. one year’s tax in advance. Therefore you need to double the above tax figures for your first tax bill.

HK$144930 Total Tax (ADB Paid) = 34.3% of your monthly salary.
HK$132972 Total Tax (No ADB Paid) = 31.5% of your monthly salary.

This is a higher tax burden in your first year of service than most western countries.

Expenditure/month

Tax: $12100
Rent: $15000
Food: $4000
Home Phone: $500
Mobile: $120
Internet: $200
Electricity: $1000
Gas: $300
Water: $150
Public Transport: $1000
Miscellaneous: $3000
Total: $37370

[Wallstreet]

Titan,

Thank you for the reply on my questions.

So all in all
Total annual NET income: 604.852-66.486 = 538.366
Total montly NET income: 44.863

If we take average tax per year, not just year one then:
Total costs per month according to you: 31.320

I still think those expenses Can be cut, but even with this expenditure you would have about 15.000HKD left per Month.

I know I should go for the long term and that's exactly why I'm considering this Cadet program ! Even with the starting salary you have 15.000 left per month. And if you are upgraded in 4 years you would earn 40.000 more, that would leave you with about 50.000 per month, and this will only become more. I am though concerned about the inflation factor.

Honk Kong is expensive, I agree. But you won't have an huge dept for your training ! A dept of 100.000USD is not uncommon for a flight training. And your salary will rise in time, so I really don't see the point why a single man would not take this oppertunity. Tell me if I'm wrong.

I have considered a lot of possibilities, and I still think this is a good one. I hope to be selected for Cathay Pacific, but I'm also applying for the BA Cadet program.

[404 Titan]

Wallstreet

So all in all
Total annual NET income: 604.852-66.486 = 538.366
Total montly NET income: 44.863

No it isn’t. You have included the “Annual Discretionary Bonus” then quoted the tax on no “Annual discretionary Bonus” being paid. Also there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be paid and you certainly can’t plan your monthly budget on it.

($604,852 – $35,170(ADB) – $66486(TAX)) ÷ 12 = $41933 NET

If we take average tax per year, not just year one then:
Total costs per month according to you: 31.320

I didn’t say that at all. That is the minimum percentage you will have to budget for tax in your first year if the Annual Discretionary Bonus isn’t paid.

The point I am trying to make is that you will get a substantial tax bill in your first year. It is absolutely pointless averaging it out over a number of years because the HKIRD are going to want their money in that first year and you have to budget for it accordingly, i.e. up to 34.3% of your salary. In subsequent years, excluding when you are budgeting to pay the tax on the forgivable loan, you can budget for tax at about 17% per year.

I still think those expenses Can be cut

You want to tell me how you will cut those expenses by anything meaningful? Have you ever lived in Hong Kong? Have you asked any recent cadets, i.e. those that have started in Hong Kong since the beginning of the year, how much they are paying for rent? I have flown with a few now and all of them are paying between 12 – 15000 per month in rent. They looked at the cheaper places you have seen on the internet and all of them were “QUOTE”, “substandard”. Rents have also gone up about 21% in the last 18 months. Most cadets are now worried that when their leases come up for renewal in 24 months they will be forced to move into this substandard accommodation because they won’t be able to afford the new lease.

but even with this expenditure you would have about 15.000HKD left per Month.

I think you should check your maths. I work out the surplus in your first year as HK$4563 per month.
41933 – 37370 = 4563

And if you are upgraded in 4 years you would earn 40.000 more, that would leave you with about 50.000 per month, and this will only become more.

You have made the assumption that you will upgrade in 4 years. Upgrades have only increased in the last 18 years that SO’s have been employed and this has been during some of the largest expansion periods in the airlines history. 4 years may be the current upgrade timing but with the airline likely to employ DEFO’s in the not too distant future, watch that upgrade time increase to between 6 – 8 years. By the way the upgrade is from SO to JFO not FO. The HKPA remains the same as SO when you are a JFO and the pay rise I can assure you isn’t HK$40,000.00.

Honk Kong is expensive, I agree. But you won't have an huge dept for your training !

Yes you will. The HKIRD will be taxing you once the forgivable loan is forgiven. That equates to a HK$187000 + $187000 (provisional tax) = HK$374000 tax bill on top of your normal tax in your 6th year. You could easily have a total tax bill in your 6th year that is in the order of HK$500,000+ but your gross salary could be as little as HK$710,000. This leaves you with a net salary of about HK$210,000 or HK$17,500 per month. How are you going to survive when in today’s dollars your expenses excluding taxes are HK$25,270?

[ryan_sharara]

Interview

Hey fellow pilots,

Do you know if CX is doing and initial interviews in Dubai, UAE ?

Thanks for any reply !
Happy Landings

[Wallstreet]

Expensis

Thanks for your reply Titan,

So, the first year you won't have a lot of dollars left, some more the second year.

Do you think the upgrade time will actually increase to 6-8 years ? Carriers all around the world are ordering extra planes, those need to be filled with crews. Yes they might employ DEFO's but when the demand gets high will they not upgrade SO's faster too ? There might be a pilot shortage in the next decadeh

Demand for airline pilots set to soar - USATODAY.com

Is it possible Not work from HK base / plans for opening any other basis ?

Do you think the BA cadet program is better, or what would you consider a good alternative ?

Thanks !

[GlassesJacketShirt]

As S/O is it possible to live overseas, and commute to Hong Kong? so the high cost of rent wouldn't affect you