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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:19
  #1201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WindSheer View Post
They'll fly NG instead.
that's a lot of people to fit into a roster. I'm guessing if anybody has been complaining they can't take leave, then they will have the ability to take it now. Might be a win for some. Here's hoping not too much stress is caused for all affected.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:22
  #1202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Have the ET302 'black boxes' been reviewed on site or is this just more fake news?
Neither. It's a reference to ADS-B data captured by the Aireon satellite network.

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:26
  #1203 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cynar View Post
yeah, what's this new evidence? what do we know today that we didn't know Monday?
They probably just now realized that there are many scenarios the MCAS Engineers didn't think of.... Airbus went through this "oh F***" learning curve...
-or-
Trump rightfully forced their hand, of which, wasn't acting, as the solution will cost $ Billions....
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:28
  #1204 (permalink)  
 
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Currently the Max-9 has (4) in flight. The Max-8 has (46) in flight.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:34
  #1205 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LeftHeadingNorth View Post
So what exactly is the problem with the MAX here? Surely, a faulty MCAS design can't be the main reason for the grounding? Did Boeing redesign the alpha vanes/pitot tubes on the max? The erroneous speed readings seem to me to be the main villain in this drama.
It seems likely that a faulty MCAS design could be the main reason for the grounding, if such faulty design were believed, based upon evidence, to be a major factor in two hull losses, and the loss of all souls on board, in a few months, on new aircraft. And, if the evidence did not, yet, point to a specific set of causes, the similarities between the two accidents are, by themselves, sufficient to ground the type pending further investigation and analysis.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:37
  #1206 (permalink)  
bnt
 
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Here's a link to the FAA's Emergency Order. At the bottom of page 3 and on to page 4, they state that: "the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between the ET302 and JT610 accidents that warrant further investigaton of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed".

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:38
  #1207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RTM Boy View Post
Surely that was obvious from the first photos of the crash site on day one; the very limited debris field and massive disintegration of the fuselage made it obvious that the a/c hit the ground at not far off 90 degrees to the perpendicular, at high speed considerably in excess of terminal velocity.
I don't find that at all "obvious." High speed? Probably. Vertical? Hardly.

Consider this photograph of the crash site - the only one I found that was taken from above ground level. I don't have enough points yet to post the image or a link to it, but you could find it here:
i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/03/12/00/10838788-6794233-Pictures_have_emerged_showing_the_scale_of_the_crash_site_fr om_a-a-14_1552350488610.jpg
(from a Daily Mail article about the crash).

It clearly shows a sharply defined impact hole, but with a sizable trail of small debris for hundreds of yards to the lower right side, indicating a considerable forward velocity. Also, the hole is NOT at all circular - it's much wider to the lower right side.

Also, although it's pedantic, I don't think "terminal velocity" is the right term here. Terminal velocity refers to a freely falling body - which an airplane under thrust is most definitely NOT. "High speed" is appropriate. Perhaps you meant "higher than limit speed" for a 737?

But even then, I don't think you can infer much about absolute speed from the photograph. Crashing an airliner into soft earth (which it appears from the multitudes of ground-level photos) will result in a large crater, no matter the impact speed. I would surmise that anything above a couple hundred knots would produce a similar crater, and similarly small bits of leftover debris.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:41
  #1208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Neither. It's a reference to ADS-B data captured by the Aireon satellite network.
The amount of information broadcast continually by ADS-B Extended Squitter is significant aircraft state, vertical and turn rates, FMC settings lots of information. In a relatively sparse area the discrimination of one aircraft's broadcasts would be relatively simple by Aireon (a hosted payload on Iridium Next satellites)
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:46
  #1209 (permalink)  
 
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The sensors that are killing people.

The most fragile things in the whole system are the sensors that are always exposed to the outside world.
In most cases, it is a sensor breaking up, or feeding wrong information to the pilots/systems.We absolutely need more and better quality control (and back-up's) for the sensors.
Static, dynamic, AOA, all of them.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:46
  #1210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
That makes no sense. WTF is a "B738 MAX" ?
They saw your post and made another update:



Last edited by Airbubba; 13th Mar 2019 at 22:49.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:55
  #1211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magpie32 View Post
In light of the 737 MAX gounding what happens to those pilots who are type rated on only the 737 MAX models?
Surely the NG will be fully crewed and therefore bringing MAX crew over will just impact the NG crew who’ve done nothing wrong.
The diff bw NG and MAX is close to one powerpoint presentation and three hrs ground study time. So they can operate either type.
The total amt of airline flights is likely to drop as well as profits. So less money for everyone unless they sue Boeing and win the case, which would bring more bonuses to lawyers and execs, not to workhorses.

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:58
  #1212 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ian W View Post
The amount of information broadcast continually by ADS-B Extended Squitter is significant aircraft state, vertical and turn rates, FMC settings lots of information.
Being picky, not all of those are in the ADS-B Extended Squitter. Some (turn rate, FMC mode, IAS, etc) only get sent in response to a Mode S EHS interrogation.

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:59
  #1213 (permalink)  
 
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Bucket loader & bulldozer trashing crash wreckage

Why were two large commercial bucket loaders and a large bulldozer trashing through the crash cite Monday as seen on CNN?

I hope the CVR and FDR are reliable sources of info for this accident. All victoms RIP...
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:04
  #1214 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vilters View Post
The most fragile things in the whole system are the sensors that are always exposed to the outside world.
In most cases, it is a sensor breaking up, or feeding wrong information to the pilots/systems.We absolutely need more and better quality control (and back-up's) for the sensors.
Static, dynamic, AOA, all of them.
I am merely SLF, but I do a LOT of industrial machine control systems work. I and my team spend a lot of thought and effort to detect when the sensors aren't making sense, because that is the number one cause of problems in that world. In my case it's usually just making a few hundred thousand dollars worth of scrap, not augering into terrain with a few hundred pax aboard.

It is not possible to make a 100% reliable sensor. For any measurement.
If that measurement is important, you need to validate it.

Always being aware that the validation may itself induce faults.

I will crawl back into my cave now.
...tom
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:09
  #1215 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NWA SLF View Post
If I remember AF447 correctly it was all speculation as there was no data until over a year later when the recorders were recovered. At that time, if my memory serves me right, data showed the flight crew member in the right seat was commanding pitch up with his joystick while the pilot in the left seat was either neutral or pitch down. Basic flaw of joysticks on 2 crew cockpits in that they do not provide input by feel between flight crew. Thales sensors were speculation due to failure history.

I keep looking here to see if there is data confirming why Ethiopian crashed similar to the data on Lion Air. Have I missed it? In the case of the Lion Air there was the history of the previous flight where the pilot experienced the same sensor malfunction yet flew to destination. Ethoiopian says the previous flight was normal with no write-ups. It reminds me so much of the AA DC-10 in Chicago where the action was to shoot first and ask questions later with the evidence of what happened lying on the runway. Yes, the DC-10 had many faults resulting from rushing into production but engines falling off wings was not one of them. Engines falling off wings causing the slats to retract was a design flaw.

Now the media is interviewing MAX pilots who say they have spent their time as MAX pilots terrified of their life due to control problems. How come they did not say this before? And we have Donald Trump saying airplanes today are too complex for pilots to fly. It just keeps getting worse and worse.
...
Engines falling off wings causing the slats to retract was a design flaw.
nope it was a maintenace method screw up to starrt - and a cross feed/non crossfeed design issue/method/decision which caused slats to retract.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:09
  #1216 (permalink)  
 
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Ok call me stupid but without a professional analysis of the FDR, which, to the best of my knowledge, has not happened yet I call BS on this grounding hysteria.

We still don’t have the Lion air full report but to me the principal cause is faulty sensors and gross negligence: this aircraft should never have been used for passengers flights. The MCAS is most probably a contributing factor and reflects poorly on Boeing but I still do not see it in itself as a showstopper. As for the Ethiopian crash we are way too early to draw any conclusion. An immediate airspace ban of the whole fleet is utter madness. A progressive grounding out of extreme caution ? Ok. But what is going on right now is completely out of control (pun intended).
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:10
  #1217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vilters View Post
The most fragile things in the whole system are the sensors that are always exposed to the outside world.
In most cases, it is a sensor breaking up, or feeding wrong information to the pilots/systems.We absolutely need more and better quality control (and back-up's) for the sensors.
Static, dynamic, AOA, all of them.
You need an A350: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus...512991673).jpg

Its all very well having dozens of sensors, but the flight systems must be able to interpret them.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:12
  #1218 (permalink)  
 
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Seems there are claims of a discrepancy in the timeline of the FAA having the Aireon data and deciding to act on it. Data supposedly given to FAA on Monday , but claimed here that they sat on it and their action came only after the Canadians were given it and acted on it.
Cannot post urls but search paxex.aero and Aireon space-based Ads-B data
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:29
  #1219 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
CNN just reported that FAA based decision on 'black box data' that showed similarities to the Lion Air accident.
As usual cnn has collective heads up posterior- no black box data from second crash yet - BUT more detsails from satellited data available

Waiting for cnn to blame trump . . .

Bingo !!!CNN Host Says Shutdown To Blame For Boeing Crash In Ethiopia

2:28 PM 03/13/2019 | Politics
The article in question ran in The WSJ under the headline “Boeing to Make Key Change in 737 MAX Cockpit Software.” The article asserted that Boeing engineers had expected to push out a software update to the airplanes sometime in January, but it was delayed due to “differences of opinion and technical and engineering issues.”Instead of the FAA being asleep at the wheel, thousands of safety inspectors and other staff were recalled to ensure that all planes continued to be operated in a safe manner.
BUT wash post said
=leftFAA's emergency order grounding Boeing jets came after the agency identified similarities between crashes in Ethiopia, IndonesiaThe FAA developed new information from the wreckage of a 737 crash in Ethiopia that painted similarities to an earlier crash in Indonesia, leading the agency to ground all Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft in the U.S., three people familiar with the matter said.



Last edited by CONSO; 13th Mar 2019 at 22:46. Reason: added cnn position on trump and shutdown
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:29
  #1220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by auldlassie View Post
Seems there are claims of a discrepancy in the timeline of the FAA having the Aireon data and deciding to act on it. Data supposedly given to FAA on Monday , but claimed here that they sat on it and their action came only after the Canadians were given it and acted on it.
Cannot post urls but search paxex.aero and Aireon space-based Ads-B data
Interesting report: https://paxex.aero/2019/03/aireon-ad...max-grounding/
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