Ethiopian airliner down in Africa
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A few thoughts from a 737 Max 8 pilot .
The initial profile looks similar to the Lion air crash.
Boeing has stated that if the Lion air pilots had followed the STAB TRIM RUNAWAY. ( the new and revised version.)
the accident would not have occurred.
The Lion air pilots were initially dealing with a UNRELIABLE AIRSPEED drill . They should have then followed the Stab trim drill but were probably task saturated.
We have learned two pertinent things about the MCAS system .
Pilots are trained that on abnormalities on take off "Clean up and climb to a safe altitude". Before troubleshooting the situation .
The 737 Max flap limiting speed for flap5 is 250KIAS. That's a normal take off flap setting and more than enough airspeed for any configuration / abnormality.
So so untill a definitive directive is released for this type , when's faced with similar situations and deciding on Climb / return plan Flaps down during troubleshooting should be the default setting.
The initial profile looks similar to the Lion air crash.
Boeing has stated that if the Lion air pilots had followed the STAB TRIM RUNAWAY. ( the new and revised version.)
the accident would not have occurred.
The Lion air pilots were initially dealing with a UNRELIABLE AIRSPEED drill . They should have then followed the Stab trim drill but were probably task saturated.
We have learned two pertinent things about the MCAS system .
- The system arms when the flaps are up.
- The system disarms when the Autopilot is turned on.
Pilots are trained that on abnormalities on take off "Clean up and climb to a safe altitude". Before troubleshooting the situation .
The 737 Max flap limiting speed for flap5 is 250KIAS. That's a normal take off flap setting and more than enough airspeed for any configuration / abnormality.
So so untill a definitive directive is released for this type , when's faced with similar situations and deciding on Climb / return plan Flaps down during troubleshooting should be the default setting.
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Which is much the same as the Indonesian Max.
The airspeed was ok, of course, but the stick shaker going off and the MCAS anti-stall trim going off, tends to make you think the airspeed is wrong. So how much of a briefing have Max crews been given, on the inadvertent operation of the MCAS system?
Touch of the deja-vus, I would say. See my comment above, about the absurdity of the MCAS system.
Silver
The airspeed was ok, of course, but the stick shaker going off and the MCAS anti-stall trim going off, tends to make you think the airspeed is wrong. So how much of a briefing have Max crews been given, on the inadvertent operation of the MCAS system?
Touch of the deja-vus, I would say. See my comment above, about the absurdity of the MCAS system.
Silver
Ut Sementem Feeceris
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Picture - what are the memory items and pitch/power settings on the Max for UAS below thrust reduction altitude and above it. Presumably it’s all autos OFF as well? So, potentially application of UAS memory items with an inadvertent flap retraction due to suspected (but erroneous) overspeed and you now have a clean wing, no auto pilot, a high AOA trying to reduce the “overspeed”.......into MCAS territory?
A4
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Now if this latest tragedy is something else, I’ll be happy to stand corrected. But the similarities seem disturbing to say the least.
We have no ideas beyond some possibly educated guess-work as to what happened here but I do have a question that can be answered by someone with the relevant experience. As a 10,000 + hr career pilot I'm not exactly a newby but have not any experience with the latest sophisticated systems being introduced on modern aircraft.
Q. Is there something preventing pilots of these aircraft from simply hitting a 'disconnect' button, listening for the 'C' tone and then getting on with flying manually ? Not suggesting that this is relevant to this accident.
Q. Is there something preventing pilots of these aircraft from simply hitting a 'disconnect' button, listening for the 'C' tone and then getting on with flying manually ? Not suggesting that this is relevant to this accident.
In a previous thread in Tech Log, I was fairly vocal regarding the grounding of all 737 Max aircraft. Particularly when it was revealed that disabling of the MCAS was dissimilar to the disabling of a “pitch trim” fault in the NG. While there was a lot of discussion surrounding how what sensor should be fitted where, even to the extent of some pretty impressive technical diagrams, the fact remains that the apparent failure of a sensor created a situation where the crew were unable to prevent their aircraft from descending uncontrollably, and crashing violently.
Now if this latest tragedy is something else, I’ll be happy to stand corrected. But the similarities seem disturbing to say the least.
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China has asked its domestic airlines to ground all 737 Max.
(Bloomberg) -- China asked domestic airlines to temporarily ground Boeing 737 Max after a same model operated by Ethiopian Airlines crashed on Sunday, Caijing reports, citing an unidentified industry participant.
(Bloomberg) -- China asked domestic airlines to temporarily ground Boeing 737 Max after a same model operated by Ethiopian Airlines crashed on Sunday, Caijing reports, citing an unidentified industry participant.
- NOTE: The Sunday crash is the second deadly accident for the model in 5 months
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Yep, the holding point is on the ground just short of the runway. You would normally have tower frequency tuned waiting for your instructions to taxi onto the runway for takeoff.
Depending on terrain, receiver coverage and other factors sometimes you can see aircraft on the ground with FR24, sometimes you can't. And, even if you don't see the plane on the ground, you will normally see it when airborne after takeoff.
At ADD the ground coverage seems to be intermittent but I don't see a 777 within the minutes after the ET302 departure at about 0537Z.
Here is ET302 turning onto the runway:
The next departure I see about five minutes later is a B-788:
Depending on terrain, receiver coverage and other factors sometimes you can see aircraft on the ground with FR24, sometimes you can't. And, even if you don't see the plane on the ground, you will normally see it when airborne after takeoff.
At ADD the ground coverage seems to be intermittent but I don't see a 777 within the minutes after the ET302 departure at about 0537Z.
Here is ET302 turning onto the runway:
The next departure I see about five minutes later is a B-788:
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No deaths are acceptable ever. But so far no one knows what the cause of this crash was and if it was related to type. Nonetheless it's understandable these days that there will calls or requirements to ground the type.
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If I recall correctly, many people made very early calls regarding the causes behind JT610. The vast majority of these (if not all) pointed the finger at the aircrew - I’m not saying Indo does not have systemic aviation safety issues - only to find after initial investigations that MCAS probably was a causal factor. With the number of foreigners on board you can be assured they will make some initial determinations pretty quickly.
Aerobatic, crop spraying and fighter aircraft have to be unstable to allow for rapid maneuverability. A crop sprayer pilot described flying the Ayers Turbo Thrush to me as "like balancing on a beach ball".
Some of the latest fighters are so unstable that they have to be fly by wire or control would be rapidly lost by most pilots.
The certification requirement of not needing undue "skill, alertness or strength" needs to be remembered. IF the MCAS has to be watched like a hawk and requires a couple of night club bouncers to overcome a simple failure then it has no place on a civil aircraft. Imagine two slightly built female pilots trying to overcome a runaway system.
Some of the latest fighters are so unstable that they have to be fly by wire or control would be rapidly lost by most pilots.
The certification requirement of not needing undue "skill, alertness or strength" needs to be remembered. IF the MCAS has to be watched like a hawk and requires a couple of night club bouncers to overcome a simple failure then it has no place on a civil aircraft. Imagine two slightly built female pilots trying to overcome a runaway system.
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Aerobatic, crop spraying and fighter aircraft have to be unstable to allow for rapid maneuverability. A crop sprayer pilot described flying the Ayers Turbo Thrush to me as "like balancing on a beach ball".
Some of the latest fighters are so unstable that they have to be fly by wire or control would be rapidly lost by most pilots.
The certification requirement of not needing undue "skill, alertness or strength" needs to be remembered. IF the MCAS has to be watched like a hawk and requires a couple of night club bouncers to overcome a simple failure then it has no place on a civil aircraft. Imagine two slightly built female pilots trying to overcome a runaway system.
Some of the latest fighters are so unstable that they have to be fly by wire or control would be rapidly lost by most pilots.
The certification requirement of not needing undue "skill, alertness or strength" needs to be remembered. IF the MCAS has to be watched like a hawk and requires a couple of night club bouncers to overcome a simple failure then it has no place on a civil aircraft. Imagine two slightly built female pilots trying to overcome a runaway system.
