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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 10th Mar 2019, 23:46
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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FWIW
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...37-max-begins/

....The Lion Air flight data showed that airplane repeatedly losing and then regaining altitude for 12 minutes before the final dive into the sea, as the pilots struggled to pull the nose up each time MCAS pushed it down.But MCAS cannot activate until the pilot has gained altitude and retracted the flaps that give the wings extra lift for takeoff. It’s not clear at this time what phase of flight the Ethiopian plane had reached and whether the flaps were retracted...
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 23:48
  #202 (permalink)  
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Apropos comments made in recent posts: The Lion Air last moments of climb and then near vertical dive, were preceded by a huge handful of power - evidenced by a fuel-flow increase not bettered since the takeoff run.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 23:49
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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A few thoughts from a 737 Max 8 pilot .
The initial profile looks similar to the Lion air crash.
Boeing has stated that if the Lion air pilots had followed the STAB TRIM RUNAWAY. ( the new and revised version.)
the accident would not have occurred.
The Lion air pilots were initially dealing with a UNRELIABLE AIRSPEED drill . They should have then followed the Stab trim drill but were probably task saturated.
We have learned two pertinent things about the MCAS system .
  1. The system arms when the flaps are up.
  2. The system disarms when the Autopilot is turned on.
So so on Take off the auto pilot is off and the flaps are down.
Pilots are trained that on abnormalities on take off "Clean up and climb to a safe altitude". Before troubleshooting the situation .
The 737 Max flap limiting speed for flap5 is 250KIAS. That's a normal take off flap setting and more than enough airspeed for any configuration / abnormality.

So so untill a definitive directive is released for this type , when's faced with similar situations and deciding on Climb / return plan Flaps down during troubleshooting should be the default setting.

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Old 10th Mar 2019, 23:56
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hibernia View Post
777 crew behind ET302 at holding point report observing normal takeoff followed shortly by declaration of emergency. They heard ET302 on tower frequency transmitting “Wrong airspeed indications and difficulty controlling aircraft.”
Originally Posted by Tiennetti View Post
FR24 replay shows no 777 behind ET302
Could you give a source for this report? I don't see the 777 on FR24 either.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 23:56
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by silverstrata View Post
Which is much the same as the Indonesian Max.
The airspeed was ok, of course, but the stick shaker going off and the MCAS anti-stall trim going off, tends to make you think the airspeed is wrong. So how much of a briefing have Max crews been given, on the inadvertent operation of the MCAS system?

Touch of the deja-vus, I would say. See my comment above, about the absurdity of the MCAS system.

Silver
The MCAS AD came out 6 monthes ago. It was supposed to be an interim measure with software change to permanently resolved the issue coming Jan 2019. The software update to permanently address the issue did not happen I believe...
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 23:57
  #206 (permalink)  
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Picture - what are the memory items and pitch/power settings on the Max for UAS below thrust reduction altitude and above it. Presumably it’s all autos OFF as well? So, potentially application of UAS memory items with an inadvertent flap retraction due to suspected (but erroneous) overspeed and you now have a clean wing, no auto pilot, a high AOA trying to reduce the “overspeed”.......into MCAS territory?

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:12
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hibernia View Post
777 crew behind ET302 at holding point report observing normal takeoff followed shortly by declaration of emergency. They heard ET302 on tower frequency transmitting “Wrong airspeed indications and difficulty controlling aircraft.”
Is there any particular reason why you have chosen not to identify the source of that report ?

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:13
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SigWit View Post
IF this is the MCAS fault again, then the consequences will be enormous, probably a grounding of the MAX fleet.
In a previous thread in Tech Log, I was fairly vocal regarding the grounding of all 737 Max aircraft. Particularly when it was revealed that disabling of the MCAS was dissimilar to the disabling of a “pitch trim” fault in the NG. While there was a lot of discussion surrounding how what sensor should be fitted where, even to the extent of some pretty impressive technical diagrams, the fact remains that the apparent failure of a sensor created a situation where the crew were unable to prevent their aircraft from descending uncontrollably, and crashing violently.

Now if this latest tragedy is something else, I’ll be happy to stand corrected. But the similarities seem disturbing to say the least.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:17
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MungoP View Post
We have no ideas beyond some possibly educated guess-work as to what happened here but I do have a question that can be answered by someone with the relevant experience. As a 10,000 + hr career pilot I'm not exactly a newby but have not any experience with the latest sophisticated systems being introduced on modern aircraft.
Q. Is there something preventing pilots of these aircraft from simply hitting a 'disconnect' button, listening for the 'C' tone and then getting on with flying manually ? Not suggesting that this is relevant to this accident.
A: the trim disconnect switches found directly on the center pedestal within easy reach will disconnect the ability of the MCAS system from trimming against pilot input.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:21
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 View Post


In a previous thread in Tech Log, I was fairly vocal regarding the grounding of all 737 Max aircraft. Particularly when it was revealed that disabling of the MCAS was dissimilar to the disabling of a “pitch trim” fault in the NG. While there was a lot of discussion surrounding how what sensor should be fitted where, even to the extent of some pretty impressive technical diagrams, the fact remains that the apparent failure of a sensor created a situation where the crew were unable to prevent their aircraft from descending uncontrollably, and crashing violently.

Now if this latest tragedy is something else, I’ll be happy to stand corrected. But the similarities seem disturbing to say the least.
it is not dissimilar from a trim runway though, MCAS can be disabled in seconds using the standard trim runway procedure that has you flip two switches on the center pedestal.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:22
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Another chapter in the US-China trade war?

Rumour is China has suspended all 737-800 ops in the wake of ET302, no doubt more to follow.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:22
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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China has asked its domestic airlines to ground all 737 Max.

(Bloomberg) -- China asked domestic airlines to temporarily ground Boeing 737 Max after a same model operated by Ethiopian Airlines crashed on Sunday, Caijing reports, citing an unidentified industry participant.
  • NOTE: The Sunday crash is the second deadly accident for the model in 5 months
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:29
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post


it is not dissimilar from a trim runway though, MCAS can be disabled in seconds using the standard trim runway procedure that has you flip two switches on the center pedestal.
Fair enough.

But apparently beyond the capabilities of at least one crew?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:32
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Burleigh Effect View Post
Rumour is China has suspended all 737-800 ops in the wake of ET302, no doubt more to follow.
737-800 or 737 MAX 8???
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:33
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CONSO View Post
Doesn't that mean the crew (777) was still on ground taxiway ?
Yep, the holding point is on the ground just short of the runway. You would normally have tower frequency tuned waiting for your instructions to taxi onto the runway for takeoff.

Depending on terrain, receiver coverage and other factors sometimes you can see aircraft on the ground with FR24, sometimes you can't. And, even if you don't see the plane on the ground, you will normally see it when airborne after takeoff.

At ADD the ground coverage seems to be intermittent but I don't see a 777 within the minutes after the ET302 departure at about 0537Z.

Here is ET302 turning onto the runway:




The next departure I see about five minutes later is a B-788:


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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:34
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rabidstoat View Post
737-800 or 737 MAX 8???
Correction - it’s the 737-8 MAX.

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:35
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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300 and something deaths in 80,000 flights is not acceptable in 2019.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:46
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by svhar View Post
300 and something deaths in 80,000 flights is not acceptable in 2019.
No deaths are acceptable ever. But so far no one knows what the cause of this crash was and if it was related to type. Nonetheless it's understandable these days that there will calls or requirements to ground the type.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 00:54
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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But everything points that way. Waiting two years for a final report might cost some more hundreds deaths.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 01:14
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by svhar View Post
But everything points that way. Waiting two years for a final report might cost some more hundreds deaths.
If I recall correctly, many people made very early calls regarding the causes behind JT610. The vast majority of these (if not all) pointed the finger at the aircrew - I’m not saying Indo does not have systemic aviation safety issues - only to find after initial investigations that MCAS probably was a causal factor. With the number of foreigners on board you can be assured they will make some initial determinations pretty quickly.
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