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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:05
  #1141 (permalink)  
 
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So I guess that must signal the end of the FAA as it is today. Even their ultimate boss is doing their job for them.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:09
  #1142 (permalink)  
 
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Boeing's latest response..."abundance of caution"

[QUOTE]Boeing statement on grounding move


Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. However, after consultation with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined - out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety - to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft.
Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. However, after consultation with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined - out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety - to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:12
  #1143 (permalink)  
 
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FAA says it is ordering the grounding by US Airlines or in US territory - in response to new evidence gathered at the site and satellite information analysed this morning.


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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:12
  #1144 (permalink)  
 
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UK Channel Islands

Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
UK Channel Islands airspace now closed to 737 MAX ... valuable, since none of our airports are big enough to take the aircraft anyway!
The UK Channel Islands didn't close their airports but their airspace, nuance....

M.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:13
  #1145 (permalink)  
 
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Another similar Boeing media release:

In Consultation with the FAA, NTSB and its Customers, Boeing Supports Action to Temporarily Ground 737 MAX Operations

March 13, 2019 – Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. However, after consultation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined -- out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety -- to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft.

“On behalf of the entire Boeing team, we extend our deepest sympathies to the families and loved ones of those who have lost their lives in these two tragic accidents,” said Dennis Muilenburg, president, CEO, Chairman of The Boeing Company.

“We are supporting this proactive step out of an abundance of caution. Safety is a core value at Boeing for as long as we have been building airplanes; and it always will be. There is no greater priority for our company and our industry. We are doing everything we can to understand the cause of the accidents in partnership with the investigators, deploy safety enhancements and help ensure this does not happen again.”

Boeing makes this recommendation and supports the decision by the FAA.

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:15
  #1146 (permalink)  
 
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For AF447 it was quickly established that airspeed sensors problems were probably responsible for the initial 'upset' and there was a programme to replace that type of (Thales) sensor - presumably successful? For the MAX, Boeing say that the MCAS system only operates when the aircraft is OUTSIDE its 'normal envelope' (or sensors suggest it is). In the recent accidents it seems that faulty AoA sensors caused the a/c computers to think that the a/c were outside of the 'normal envelope' and erroneously invoked MCAS. Seems to me that maybe the AoA sensors should perhaps be more the focus of attention - surely there must be alternative manufacturers for similar sensors?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:16
  #1147 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPN11
UK Channel Islands airspace now closed to 737 MAX ... valuable, since none of our airports are big enough to take the aircraft anyway!

But on your large and congested islands at least you are now safe from the risk of an overflight going wrong. By the way, you call it UK CI airspace, but isn't it pretty much all inside the Brest FIR?

Wrong lol -
There are weekly charters to Spain and Tenerife flying from Jersey which were the recent domain of Germania (RIP) but the tour operator got Smart wings/Travel Service Prague in with a 737 MAX to fly from Jersey for them
Jersey Post reports today that Smart-wings had to ground their MAX fleet but can get a 737-800 in as an immediate stand in UFN

https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2...erife-service/
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:27
  #1148 (permalink)  
 
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If one presumes the grounded aircraft will be towed to an unused corner of their respective airports rather than taking up valuable space on the apron, or at gates, would preventative preparations be made for an extended grounding? How long can the aircraft be grounded for in a "cold" state without requiring extensive checks and maintenance prior to returning to service?

Would the airports be levying a "storage charge"?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:31
  #1149 (permalink)  
 
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FAA statement on the grounding:

3/13/19 3:00pm Update

Statement from the FAA on Ethiopian Airlines

The FAA is ordering the temporary grounding of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft operated by U.S. airlines or in U.S. territory. The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today. This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision.

The grounding will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft’s flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders. An FAA team is in Ethiopia assisting the NTSB as parties to the investigation of the Flight 302 accident. The agency will continue to investigate.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:32
  #1150 (permalink)  
 
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In terms of Norwegian billing Boeing for the costs that grounding the planes incurs, is that typically something the manufacturer would be on the hook for?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:34
  #1151 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
But on your large and congested islands at least you are now safe from the risk of an overflight going wrong. By the way, you call it UK CI airspace, but isn't it pretty much all inside the Brest FIR?
Ours below FL120, IIRC

Originally Posted by agnostique75
The UK Channel Islands didn't close their airports but their airspace, nuance....[img]images/smilies/wink2.gif
I drew the info from the OH, who was listening to Jersey News. But, as i said, the airports can't take the aircraft anyway
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:40
  #1152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Triskelle View Post
In the recent accidents it seems that faulty AoA sensors caused the a/c computers to think that the a/c were outside of the 'normal envelope' and erroneously invoked MCAS. Seems to me that maybe the AoA sensors should perhaps be more the focus of attention - surely there must be alternative manufacturers for similar sensors?
It has been mentioned multiple times here that no matter how good a sensor it can fail. E.g. a bird can take it out or something else. The problem seems that it is only dependent on a single sensor which is very dangerous. It should be connected to at least two sensors so if one fails it doesn't send out a false positive signal to aim the plane down to the ground. Instead it would just give a sensor fault message and the flight continues. A computer can only calculate as good as the input it gets. Most planes today have triple redundancy on input.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:40
  #1153 (permalink)  
 
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Ground stop message:


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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:42
  #1154 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
Ours below FL120, IIRC

I drew the info from the OH, who was listening to Jersey News. But, as i said, the airports can't take the aircraft anyway
737-max ops Jersey

https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2...erife-service/
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:46
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Originally Posted by Tech Guy View Post
How long can the aircraft be grounded for in a "cold" state without requiring extensive checks and maintenance prior to returning to service?
The 787 was grounded for three months in 2013. I assume they will be checked at the same time as the software patch and AoA sensor re-jig is done.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:51
  #1156 (permalink)  
 
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If I remember AF447 correctly it was all speculation as there was no data until over a year later when the recorders were recovered. At that time, if my memory serves me right, data showed the flight crew member in the right seat was commanding pitch up with his joystick while the pilot in the left seat was either neutral or pitch down. Basic flaw of joysticks on 2 crew cockpits in that they do not provide input by feel between flight crew. Thales sensors were speculation due to failure history.

I keep looking here to see if there is data confirming why Ethiopian crashed similar to the data on Lion Air. Have I missed it? In the case of the Lion Air there was the history of the previous flight where the pilot experienced the same sensor malfunction yet flew to destination. Ethoiopian says the previous flight was normal with no write-ups. It reminds me so much of the AA DC-10 in Chicago where the action was to shoot first and ask questions later with the evidence of what happened lying on the runway. Yes, the DC-10 had many faults resulting from rushing into production but engines falling off wings was not one of them. Engines falling off wings causing the slats to retract was a design flaw.

Now the media is interviewing MAX pilots who say they have spent their time as MAX pilots terrified of their life due to control problems. How come they did not say this before? And we have Donald Trump saying airplanes today are too complex for pilots to fly. It just keeps getting worse and worse.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:54
  #1157 (permalink)  
 
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Trump has just made the FAA look very very stupid by doing their job for them.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:56
  #1158 (permalink)  
 
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Aireon FAA

It seems Aireon had better data than FR24 and this led to the FAA decision. This is surprising because Aireon update rate is said to be once per minute.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:57
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You have to wonder if this won’t go down in both the design, and the PR history eff-up books.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 20:00
  #1160 (permalink)  
 
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Updated grounding advisory:


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