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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 14th Mar 2019, 05:58
  #1281 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post


Dead link, but the gist of a google search using those terms is that Germany currently lacks the ability to assess this new version of the FDR. I do hope that there is a non-US avenue for analysis. I never used to feel that way, but lately I get to feeling a bit queasy getting between Americans and money.
Just add ".html" to the link (I'm not yet authorized to post a link/url).

France (BEA) will be in charge to try to read these black boxes...
Not the best choice IMHO, but...


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Old 14th Mar 2019, 06:17
  #1282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Condor99 View Post
Just add ".html" to the link (I'm not yet authorized to post a link/url).

France (BEA) will be in charge to try to read these black boxes...
Not the best choice IMHO, but...
It's not like there won't be an FAA/NTSB team and Boeing reps in the room. I fail to see what the big deal is.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 06:48
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
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Ethiopian Airlines on Twitter: "An Ethiopian delegation led by Accident Investigation Bureau (AIB) has flown the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) to Paris, France for investigation."


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Old 14th Mar 2019, 07:14
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FCeng84 View Post
STS is subject to column cutout such that large column motion in opposition to STS stabilizer command will stop STS command. Not true with MCAS. This is an important differnce between these two automatic stabilizer control functions.
How large? I have tried to let it trim without counter trimming just to see how far out of trim the aircraft gets. I get more and more back pressure on the yoke but STS keeps trimming.
On top of that, STS trims on all departures, not only in the light aircraft, high thrust aft CG situation.
It’s a weird system that I could do without.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 07:20
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
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After 1000 feet I noticed a decrease in aircraft performance. I picked up that the autothrottles were not moving to commanded position even though they were engaged. I'm sure they were set properly for takeoff but not sure when the discrepancy took place. My scan wasn't as well developed since I've only flown the MAX once before. I manually positioned the thrust levers ASAP. This resolved the threat, we were able to increase speed to clean up and continue the climb to 3000 feet.

Shortly afterwards I heard about the (other carrier) accident and am wondering if any other crews have experienced similar incidents with the autothrottle system on the MAX? Or I may have made a possible flying mistake which is more likely. The FO (First Officer) was still on his first month and was not able to identify whether it was the aircraft or me that was in error.
So there was a captain unable to quickly grasp what was happening because it was only his/her second flight on the type, and an FO with less than month of experience who couldn't grasp what was wrong??? I'm never going to fly again!
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 07:25
  #1286 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK View Post
I think the satellite data *could* refer to any ACARS maintenance information transmitted to Boeing and/or GE and/or Ethiopian.
It could also mean that, though the Canadians specifically referred to "satellite tracking data".

In effect, FR24 on steroids.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 07:59
  #1287 (permalink)  
 
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An Alternative to MCAS

As has been very well explained, the reason for MCAS was to cause ANU stick force to increase or at least not to decrease when AoA approaches stall angle. That was a certification requirement.
However, by repeating the trim input at remaining high AoA, something more than just desired stick force increase is achieved.
What is needed is a one time increment in stick force to bring the Max into line with the other 737 models - if that was the aim.
This can be achieved by adding feel spring force to the control run, cut in point determined by AoA.
If there were then a fault in the AoA signal, the increment would be applied - once - which would be trimmable and controllable.
The whole sorry idea of playing with the stab trim to achieve what is really a desired primary control feel correction is unnecessary and as we see, unsatisfactory and potentially dangerous.
A feel spring solution should satisfy the certification authorities and the desire by the manufacturer to keep the Max in the 737 family, rating wise.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:13
  #1288 (permalink)  
 
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It was established yesterday evening that the BEA (France) is going to read them out.

They have arrived in Paris:

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Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:14
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
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If the manufacturer is interested in technical solving the issue, then the real data FDR and CVR of both flights are required. With the money at stake I have no doubt he is. So why should you think Boing has any benefit with tampering FDR or CVR data? It will be difficult enough to restore customer trust into that plane. So anything short of a thorough analysis yielding a transparent technical solution scrutinised by all parties including the regulatory bodies will not do.
So Honeywell would be my first shot to ask, the recorders hand delivered and the restorrage overseen by some trustable and technical savvy people.
Ask Airbus guys and some of the national experts in the regulatory bodies to participate.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:50
  #1290 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by enginebird View Post
“Less Hair“ already answered your question and I do not have much to add: the BFU has limited resources and up to now there are no MAX in the country, so no surprise (to me) that they cannot read the FDR.
OK, thanks. I wonder why the ECAA didn't ascertain the BFU's capability before announcing that they were sending the recorders to Germany.

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Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:57
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alainthailande View Post
Er, aren't the LEAP engines manufactured by CFM, a joint venture between Safran (a French company) and General Electric ?
Originally Posted by Condor99 View Post
France (BEA) will be in charge to try to read these black boxes...
Not the best choice IMHO, but...
Has anyone criticized the work that was done by French BEA re. the analysis of data from AF447 involving both the French national carrier and an aircraft manufactured by European Airbus whose ties with France are well known to all? From a pure France's perspective AF447 was presumably much more critical to France than ET302 may ever be. And I doubt that anyone (sensible) in France feels happy that this is happening to Boeing today....
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:59
  #1292 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
OK, thanks. I wonder why the ECAA didn't ascertain the BFU's capability before announcing that they were sending the recorders to Germany.
Totally agree, not their smartest move.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:00
  #1293 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mfeldt View Post
So there was a captain unable to quickly grasp what was happening because it was only his/her second flight on the type, and an FO with less than month of experience who couldn't grasp what was wrong??? I'm never going to fly again!
And here I was thinking a 737 was a 737 was a 737 was a 737 ;-)

G
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:01
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by N600JJ View Post
Has anyone criticized the work that was done by French BEA re. the analysis of data from AF447 involving both the French national carrier and an aircraft manufactured by European Airbus whose ties with France are well known to all? From a pure France's perspective AF447 was presumably much more critical to France than ET302 may ever be. And I doubt that anyone (sensible) in France feels happy that this is happening to Boeing today....
Certainement pas, nous sommes tous connectés!

Perhaps the CVR/FDR being sent to France may be a tacit recognition underneath pragmatism, that there needs to be other eyes looking at this?
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:03
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post


How large? I have tried to let it trim without counter trimming just to see how far out of trim the aircraft gets. I get more and more back pressure on the yoke but STS keeps trimming.
On top of that, STS trims on all departures, not only in the light aircraft, high thrust aft CG situation.
It’s a weird system that I could do without.
The switch involved is the same one that interrupts pilot electric pitch trim if opposite the column displacement direction. I believe this interrupt is also active on the ground. When positioning the stabilizer for takeoff using wheel mounted thumb switch try moving the column in the opposite direction at the same time to see how far it has to be out of detent before stabilizer motion stops even though thumb switch remains activated. A note of caution that thumb switch input in opposition to column such that the column cutout activates if held for very long may trip a monitor designed to detect persistent contradictory column and trim commands. That might take some explaining. I apologize that I don't know the details on such monitoring (in particular how long the condition must persist before said monitor trips). I'm sure there must be some 737 savvy PPRUNErs out there who know and by the amount of traffic on this thread they are probably monitoring.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:28
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
OK, thanks. I wonder why the ECAA didn't ascertain the BFU's capability before announcing that they were sending the recorders to Germany.
Absolute guess here, but Lufthansa have managed and supervised ET's tech and mech support for many years, so it's possible the default response to a problem in Addis is 'send it to Germany', or 'ask the Germans'.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:28
  #1297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
OK, thanks. I wonder why the ECAA didn't ascertain the BFU's capability before announcing that they were sending the recorders to Germany.
I don't think the ECAA is driving this decision to have the black boxes analyzed in Europe, and I didn't see them announcing anything in this regard.

Rather, I think this maneuvering is coming from Ethiopian Airlines -- more specifically, the airline's CEO, who has a lot of influence in the country's aviation sector.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:35
  #1298 (permalink)  
 
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Paris/Addis Ababa - Two black boxes from the Boeing 737 MAX aeroplane that crashed in Ethiopia arrived on Thursday in Paris for expert analysis, officials said, as regulators around the world awaited word on whether it was safe to resume flying the jets.

A spokesman for France's BEA air accident investigation agency said the flight data and cockpit voice recorders would be handed over to the agency later in the day.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/et...lysis-19877943
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 09:37
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
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To quote a 737 Max pilot:

"..what else don’t I know?"


From https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/13/co...-transparency/

"Herein lies an essential lesson for Boeing: When your reputation depends on safety, it does not matter what has been proven or who is at fault. What matters is that you are seen taking the lead to protect the safety of the publicat all costs."
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 10:00
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FCeng84 View Post
The switch involved is the same one that interrupts pilot electric pitch trim if opposite the column displacement direction. I believe this interrupt is also active on the ground. When positioning the stabilizer for takeoff using wheel mounted thumb switch try moving the column in the opposite direction at the same time to see how far it has to be out of detent before stabilizer motion stops even though thumb switch remains activated. A note of caution that thumb switch input in opposition to column such that the column cutout activates if held for very long may trip a monitor designed to detect persistent contradictory column and trim commands. That might take some explaining. I apologize that I don't know the details on such monitoring (in particular how long the condition must persist before said monitor trips). I'm sure there must be some 737 savvy PPRUNErs out there who know and by the amount of traffic on this thread they are probably monitoring.
It works on ground. I have seen this when the wind push the yoke forward and I want to set takeoff trim. I need to pull the yoke back before I can engage the trim.
With STS it will continue to trim up even if I need to apply quite a lot of forward pressure to keep the nose from rising. I thing the parameters for the trim cut out to function are very high. Or possibly it doesn’t stop STS from operating.

Last edited by ManaAdaSystem; 14th Mar 2019 at 10:44.
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