Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover
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This is true. The standard in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a civil suit it is: "The preponderance of evidence." I'm sure there are entire classes taught in law schools on the nuance of the meaning of those words but you don't have to be a lawyer to see that the latter is a much lower standard.
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Longtime reader of this board, first time poster. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the messages which acknowledged that sexual violence is a crime unlike any other. I was nonetheless dismayed, though not surprised at those which displayed the misogynist attitude I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.
I can't believe that it is not company policy to relay any accusation of serious sexual assault to the police asap. No matter how much time has elapsed since the incident there is always an opportunity to gather evidence whether that is forensic samples or interviewing witnesses. Allegations of rape are very difficult to investigate and even more difficult to prove. It is a job for investigative professionals ie cops NOT hr professionals. The max sentence for a conviction like that is life in prison.
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I don't know, Ollie, I'm probably a little old-fashioned (despite being relatively young), but I believe there are things a Captain (as opposed to just an employee with four stripes sitting in the left seat) just shouldn't do. Part of my job is to keep my crew safe and legal (including, to the extent possible, on overnights). If other crewmembers want to get liquored up, that's their business, but if "things got out of control" with MY PARTICIPATION, to me that's a reflection on my leadership abilities (or lack thereof). I realize I'm probably in the minority on this, but it is what it is.
The Employment Appeals Tribunal(EAT) concurred with the tribunal findings, that these acts were committed in the course of his employment, and the incidents, although 'social events' away from the police station, were extensions of the workplace. They came within the definition of course of employment as determined by the Court of Appeal in Jones v Tower Boot Co. Ltd [1997] IRLR 168 CA.
The EAT stated that it would have been different had the discriminatory acts occurred during a chance meeting. Hence work-related social functions may be interpreted as an extension of employment.
The EAT stated that it would have been different had the discriminatory acts occurred during a chance meeting. Hence work-related social functions may be interpreted as an extension of employment.
https://www.thompsonstradeunion.law/...ty-or-off-duty
Longtime reader of this board, first time poster. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the messages which acknowledged that sexual violence is a crime unlike any other. I was nonetheless dismayed, though not surprised at those which displayed the misogynist attitude I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.
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I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low
Are you a UK council employee by any chance? Your nasty little rant so reminds me of an equal opportunities day I had to attend some years ago in my previous career in which I spent 7 hours being told that all the problems in the UK were caused by the males of the indigenous population.
Old boys club, perhaps 50 or sixty years ago.
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"Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside.
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Rape accusations are rarely accepted as 'true'; until the recent past, the man's denial was usually accepted as true.
It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
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Rape accusations are rarely accepted as 'true'; until the recent past, the man's denial was usually accepted as true.
It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
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Why are my stats 'questionable'? Please tell where you think I'm wrong.
We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.
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No, but the possibility shouldn't be dismissed, either. A justice system whcih does not consider that the accuser in *any* crime may lying would not be a justice system in any meaningful sense.
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That is NOT going away, instant case notwithstanding.
What is happening, not for the good of the country, is kangaroo trial by the media.
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This is unfortunate all the way around. Nobody walks away from this one without some injury, some stain upon their reputations. The following, while not entirely judicially prudent, nor perfect, is the most likely result, barring any new developments or evidence of substance:
With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.
With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.
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With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.
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Statistics help us very little when it comes to sexual violence. These are what sociologists call "dark numbers." We will never know the true number of rapes and sexual assaults because we rely on victims to report them. Some will never do so; others do not even realise that what happened to them was a crime. Similarly, there is no way of determining the proportion of true and false allegations, the more so inasmuch as no consensus exists over what constitutes a "false" allegation (is it one, for example, where the complainant maliciously fabricates a story out of whole cloth, or one where the complainant genuinely but incorrectly believes a crime took place?). Given these limitations, we should treat any statistical data as indicative rather than determinative.
All that noted, there are things we can say about sexual violence with a high degree of confidence. The first is that a great deal of it occurs, against both sexes. The second is that women and girls are a majority of victims, and men and boys a majority of perpetrators, though strong minorities exist in both categories (in Britain around one in eight reported rapes occurs to adult men; in the U.S. around one in five). The third is that the majority of cases—how large a majority it's impossible to say—goes unreported. The fourth is that the attrition rate in cases brought to the attention of law enforcement is extremely high, so that only a trivial proportion of reported rapes results in custodial sentences. Lastly, rape is a crime suffered by the young, but often perpetrated by older people. For both sexes, the moment of highest risk occurs at the age of sixteen. One's chances of suffering sexual violence begins to fall sharply after one's twentieth, and precipitously after one's thirtieth, birthday, though it never diminishes to zero. All of what I've just said is true of every country in the world in which any kind of worthwhile data exist.
In this specific case, nothing about the complainant's story seems incredible to me. I have heard many similar ones, from people who are neither vindictive, ideologically driven nor angling for a payout. (Often they don't report what happened to them because they don't want the perpetrator to go to jail. They just want him or her to acknowledge the wrongdoing, and not to do it again.) It's often forgotten that successful rapists, by dint of practice, become frighteningly good at what they do. And many of them—Jimmy Savile, Kevin Spacey, Larry Nassar and others—can be almost unbelievably blatant in the commission of their acts. I personally know one woman, a senior professional, who was sexually assaulted at a formal dinner at which I, and a couple of hundred other people, were present. The perp relied on the victim's incredulity, and her reluctance to create a public scene, to get away with it. It later transpired that he had done this to many, many other people.
I'm not sure that I'm following the objections of some of the posters upthread to the action that FO Pina has taken. Nobody is suggesting that merely because she has levelled an accusation, what she says ought to be taken as unquestioned truth. She has asked the civil courts to render a verdict, and on her will rest the burden of convincing a jury of her, and the defendant's, peers that she is telling the truth. Previous experience shows that she faces an uphill job in doing so. But she is surely entitled at least to seek redress by these means.
Like Cows above, my belief is that in the world of commercial aviation, many more such cases exist than ever see the light of day. The chance to occupy the left-hand seat in the cockpit is keenly contested; deciding who fills it is almost entirely in the hands of men; and opportunities to shunt an aspirant off the path—or to ensure that her or his professional career will go thus far but no further—are not few. Boat-rocking of any kind is not encouraged in aviation circles. My guess is that any successful woman pilot will have had to grit her teeth quite a few times along the way, and that some of them will have had to put up with a great deal more than that.
All that noted, there are things we can say about sexual violence with a high degree of confidence. The first is that a great deal of it occurs, against both sexes. The second is that women and girls are a majority of victims, and men and boys a majority of perpetrators, though strong minorities exist in both categories (in Britain around one in eight reported rapes occurs to adult men; in the U.S. around one in five). The third is that the majority of cases—how large a majority it's impossible to say—goes unreported. The fourth is that the attrition rate in cases brought to the attention of law enforcement is extremely high, so that only a trivial proportion of reported rapes results in custodial sentences. Lastly, rape is a crime suffered by the young, but often perpetrated by older people. For both sexes, the moment of highest risk occurs at the age of sixteen. One's chances of suffering sexual violence begins to fall sharply after one's twentieth, and precipitously after one's thirtieth, birthday, though it never diminishes to zero. All of what I've just said is true of every country in the world in which any kind of worthwhile data exist.
In this specific case, nothing about the complainant's story seems incredible to me. I have heard many similar ones, from people who are neither vindictive, ideologically driven nor angling for a payout. (Often they don't report what happened to them because they don't want the perpetrator to go to jail. They just want him or her to acknowledge the wrongdoing, and not to do it again.) It's often forgotten that successful rapists, by dint of practice, become frighteningly good at what they do. And many of them—Jimmy Savile, Kevin Spacey, Larry Nassar and others—can be almost unbelievably blatant in the commission of their acts. I personally know one woman, a senior professional, who was sexually assaulted at a formal dinner at which I, and a couple of hundred other people, were present. The perp relied on the victim's incredulity, and her reluctance to create a public scene, to get away with it. It later transpired that he had done this to many, many other people.
I'm not sure that I'm following the objections of some of the posters upthread to the action that FO Pina has taken. Nobody is suggesting that merely because she has levelled an accusation, what she says ought to be taken as unquestioned truth. She has asked the civil courts to render a verdict, and on her will rest the burden of convincing a jury of her, and the defendant's, peers that she is telling the truth. Previous experience shows that she faces an uphill job in doing so. But she is surely entitled at least to seek redress by these means.
Like Cows above, my belief is that in the world of commercial aviation, many more such cases exist than ever see the light of day. The chance to occupy the left-hand seat in the cockpit is keenly contested; deciding who fills it is almost entirely in the hands of men; and opportunities to shunt an aspirant off the path—or to ensure that her or his professional career will go thus far but no further—are not few. Boat-rocking of any kind is not encouraged in aviation circles. My guess is that any successful woman pilot will have had to grit her teeth quite a few times along the way, and that some of them will have had to put up with a great deal more than that.
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I've sure guessed wrong these cases before.
In a 2002 lawsuit where a female SkyWest FO claimed that a male pilot exposed himself on, uh, short final I predicted:
Pilot sues Delta Connection Carrier
Turns out SkyWest took the case to court and won. Oddly enough, the claim of a male copilot waving at the female captain without using his hands seems to be urban legend in several variations at multiple carriers.
Some versions have the plane diverting only to have the accused save himself at the upcoming hearing by wisely pulling the CVR circuit breaker to preserve evidence of his innocence.
I've even heard a version of this tale that supposedly takes place in the sim. And, I'm pretty sure I've heard versions of this narrative well before 2002.
I'm not sure the CVR recording can be used in a disciplinary hearing either way but I may be wrong, that's why we have lawyers.
This case has a similar possible motive of a missed report on probation with alcohol involved. That's the devil's advocate answer to the claim that she would have no reason to lie and risk her career.
In a 2002 lawsuit where a female SkyWest FO claimed that a male pilot exposed himself on, uh, short final I predicted:
Ms. Manjarrez will probably get an out of court settlement from her employer whether the allegations are true or not.
Turns out SkyWest took the case to court and won. Oddly enough, the claim of a male copilot waving at the female captain without using his hands seems to be urban legend in several variations at multiple carriers.
Some versions have the plane diverting only to have the accused save himself at the upcoming hearing by wisely pulling the CVR circuit breaker to preserve evidence of his innocence.
I've even heard a version of this tale that supposedly takes place in the sim. And, I'm pretty sure I've heard versions of this narrative well before 2002.
I'm not sure the CVR recording can be used in a disciplinary hearing either way but I may be wrong, that's why we have lawyers.
We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.
Very touchy subject, and already it seems, emotions are running high.
I definitely sympathize with Victims and understand their reasons for not going straight to police, or the circumstances which might prevent them from doing so. Unfortunately the longer they wait, the more it becomes a case of He said/She said as most evidence is long gone. That's not "Victim blaming" it's the unfortunate reality of facts. The Drugs have long since left the victims system, DNA has washed away and witnesses memories fade.
If this case causes more women to come forward, then it's highly likely the Captain is guilty. While there's a first time for everything, I doubt he would have chosen a colleague on a layover as his first date rape victim. As such, he's probably done it before... or not at all. But that's just my opinion.
Unfortunately, I fear movements such as a #Metoo are actually doing more harm than good. While there's no doubt in my mind that Harvey Weinstein is a pig of a man who abused his position, I also have no doubts that some actresses were willing to do anything to advance their careers, enabling his behaviour. Remember folks, being a misogynistic arsehole isn't illegal. There's been a lot of allegations, but (to my knowledge) no charges have been laid.
Honestly, I don't have any answers with how we deal with Rape allegations any differently. Some men are Rapists and I have zero sympathy for their lives being destroyed, but some women are also liars, and their victims have their lives destroyed before it even goes to court. I suppose, both parties should have total name supression while the investigation and trial is completed.
I definitely sympathize with Victims and understand their reasons for not going straight to police, or the circumstances which might prevent them from doing so. Unfortunately the longer they wait, the more it becomes a case of He said/She said as most evidence is long gone. That's not "Victim blaming" it's the unfortunate reality of facts. The Drugs have long since left the victims system, DNA has washed away and witnesses memories fade.
If this case causes more women to come forward, then it's highly likely the Captain is guilty. While there's a first time for everything, I doubt he would have chosen a colleague on a layover as his first date rape victim. As such, he's probably done it before... or not at all. But that's just my opinion.
Unfortunately, I fear movements such as a #Metoo are actually doing more harm than good. While there's no doubt in my mind that Harvey Weinstein is a pig of a man who abused his position, I also have no doubts that some actresses were willing to do anything to advance their careers, enabling his behaviour. Remember folks, being a misogynistic arsehole isn't illegal. There's been a lot of allegations, but (to my knowledge) no charges have been laid.
Honestly, I don't have any answers with how we deal with Rape allegations any differently. Some men are Rapists and I have zero sympathy for their lives being destroyed, but some women are also liars, and their victims have their lives destroyed before it even goes to court. I suppose, both parties should have total name supression while the investigation and trial is completed.