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Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

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Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

Old 18th Mar 2018, 17:58
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Originally Posted by 4468

Though perhaps the bar is set lower when suing for damages? I believe the standard of proof required in civil cases (balance of probability) is lower than that required in criminal cases? (Beyond reasonable doubt)
This is true. The standard in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a civil suit it is: "The preponderance of evidence." I'm sure there are entire classes taught in law schools on the nuance of the meaning of those words but you don't have to be a lawyer to see that the latter is a much lower standard.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 18:31
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Longtime reader of this board, first time poster. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the messages which acknowledged that sexual violence is a crime unlike any other. I was nonetheless dismayed, though not surprised at those which displayed the misogynist attitude I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 18:41
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Originally Posted by Capewell
I can't believe that it is not company policy to relay any accusation of serious sexual assault to the police asap. No matter how much time has elapsed since the incident there is always an opportunity to gather evidence whether that is forensic samples or interviewing witnesses. Allegations of rape are very difficult to investigate and even more difficult to prove. It is a job for investigative professionals ie cops NOT hr professionals. The max sentence for a conviction like that is life in prison.
This is the most surprising point which has barely been mentioned. Employee 1 reports Employee 2 to their employer for a serious criminal act and the employer doesn't contact the police? WTF?
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 20:08
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
This is the most surprising point which has barely been mentioned. Employee 1 reports Employee 2 to their employer for a serious criminal act and the employer doesn't contact the police? WTF?
True, this seems so improbable I'm not sure what to make of it.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 20:43
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Originally Posted by flyboyike
I don't know, Ollie, I'm probably a little old-fashioned (despite being relatively young), but I believe there are things a Captain (as opposed to just an employee with four stripes sitting in the left seat) just shouldn't do. Part of my job is to keep my crew safe and legal (including, to the extent possible, on overnights). If other crewmembers want to get liquored up, that's their business, but if "things got out of control" with MY PARTICIPATION, to me that's a reflection on my leadership abilities (or lack thereof). I realize I'm probably in the minority on this, but it is what it is.
Those working for an UK employer should be aware of this case.

The Employment Appeals Tribunal(EAT) concurred with the tribunal findings, that these acts were committed in the course of his employment, and the incidents, although 'social events' away from the police station, were extensions of the workplace. They came within the definition of course of employment as determined by the Court of Appeal in Jones v Tower Boot Co. Ltd [1997] IRLR 168 CA.

The EAT stated that it would have been different had the discriminatory acts occurred during a chance meeting. Hence work-related social functions may be interpreted as an extension of employment.

https://www.thompsonstradeunion.law/...ty-or-off-duty
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 21:08
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Originally Posted by bensworld
Longtime reader of this board, first time poster. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the messages which acknowledged that sexual violence is a crime unlike any other. I was nonetheless dismayed, though not surprised at those which displayed the misogynist attitude I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.
What’s your point? Do you want to remove “innocent until proven guilty” or create a separate class of victims who are excused from normal criminal law?


GF
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 22:30
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I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low
.

Are you a UK council employee by any chance? Your nasty little rant so reminds me of an equal opportunities day I had to attend some years ago in my previous career in which I spent 7 hours being told that all the problems in the UK were caused by the males of the indigenous population.

Old boys club, perhaps 50 or sixty years ago.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 23:13
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
What’s your point? Do you want to remove “innocent until proven guilty” or create a separate class of victims who are excused from normal criminal law?


GF
That would seem to be his implication. Particularly the bit about
"Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside.
This seems pretty clear to be a demand for "Justice" beyond the law. Yes the law is an imperfect form of justice. If I were an omnipotent creator, I would create a world where justice is administered by an omniscient, absolutely impartial being who knows all the facts (That last is for those who don't fully grasp the meaning of "omniscient") in a matter. the reality is, we don't live in that world. We live in a world where all the facts are not known nor capable of being known, in a world where there are evil people who rape other people, and there are also evil people who accuse other people of raping them, either to cause great harm to the accused or for personal gain, or both. So the systems of justice has to be constructed to balance the interests of all victims in both extremes, I am not for one moment trying to claim that the accuser in this case is one of the latter. Just making the point to those who seem to be advocating that all accusations of rape should be accepted as true, because it's hard to prove rape and it's a really ugly crime. Yes, it is an ugly, despicable crime. Yes it can be difficult to prove. That does not rationally lead to the conclusion that everyone who alleges rape is being truthful.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 23:33
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Rape accusations are rarely accepted as 'true'; until the recent past, the man's denial was usually accepted as true.

It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 23:50
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Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
PAXB Presumably as long as that one man was not you.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 00:14
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Originally Posted by PaxBritannica
Rape accusations are rarely accepted as 'true'; until the recent past, the man's denial was usually accepted as true.

It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.
Neither historical injustices nor (questionable) statistics justify your position that rape accusations should be presumed to be true.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 00:33
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Originally Posted by A Squared
Neither historical injustices nor (questionable) statistics justify your position that rape accusations should be presumed to be true.
When have I taken the position that rape accusations should be presumed true? I don't think we should start from the position that rape accusations are wrong and malicious.

Why are my stats 'questionable'? Please tell where you think I'm wrong.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 00:39
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Originally Posted by A Squared
Neither historical injustices nor (questionable) statistics justify your position that rape accusations should be presumed to be true.
We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 00:45
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Originally Posted by PaxBritannica
I don't think we should start from the position that rape accusations are wrong and malicious.
No, but the possibility shouldn't be dismissed, either. A justice system whcih does not consider that the accuser in *any* crime may lying would not be a justice system in any meaningful sense.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 01:27
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Originally Posted by A Squared
No, but the possibility shouldn't be dismissed, either. A justice system whcih does not consider that the accuser in *any* crime may lying would not be a justice system in any meaningful sense.
Thus, a trial by your peers to a proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is NOT going away, instant case notwithstanding.

What is happening, not for the good of the country, is kangaroo trial by the media.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 02:14
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This is unfortunate all the way around. Nobody walks away from this one without some injury, some stain upon their reputations. The following, while not entirely judicially prudent, nor perfect, is the most likely result, barring any new developments or evidence of substance:

With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 02:46
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004

With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.
In other words, the airline will be forced to pay both of them to go away...hmmm...I wonder if...nah, I'm not THAT much of a conspiracy theorist.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 03:05
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Statistics help us very little when it comes to sexual violence. These are what sociologists call "dark numbers." We will never know the true number of rapes and sexual assaults because we rely on victims to report them. Some will never do so; others do not even realise that what happened to them was a crime. Similarly, there is no way of determining the proportion of true and false allegations, the more so inasmuch as no consensus exists over what constitutes a "false" allegation (is it one, for example, where the complainant maliciously fabricates a story out of whole cloth, or one where the complainant genuinely but incorrectly believes a crime took place?). Given these limitations, we should treat any statistical data as indicative rather than determinative.

All that noted, there are things we can say about sexual violence with a high degree of confidence. The first is that a great deal of it occurs, against both sexes. The second is that women and girls are a majority of victims, and men and boys a majority of perpetrators, though strong minorities exist in both categories (in Britain around one in eight reported rapes occurs to adult men; in the U.S. around one in five). The third is that the majority of cases—how large a majority it's impossible to say—goes unreported. The fourth is that the attrition rate in cases brought to the attention of law enforcement is extremely high, so that only a trivial proportion of reported rapes results in custodial sentences. Lastly, rape is a crime suffered by the young, but often perpetrated by older people. For both sexes, the moment of highest risk occurs at the age of sixteen. One's chances of suffering sexual violence begins to fall sharply after one's twentieth, and precipitously after one's thirtieth, birthday, though it never diminishes to zero. All of what I've just said is true of every country in the world in which any kind of worthwhile data exist.

In this specific case, nothing about the complainant's story seems incredible to me. I have heard many similar ones, from people who are neither vindictive, ideologically driven nor angling for a payout. (Often they don't report what happened to them because they don't want the perpetrator to go to jail. They just want him or her to acknowledge the wrongdoing, and not to do it again.) It's often forgotten that successful rapists, by dint of practice, become frighteningly good at what they do. And many of them—Jimmy Savile, Kevin Spacey, Larry Nassar and others—can be almost unbelievably blatant in the commission of their acts. I personally know one woman, a senior professional, who was sexually assaulted at a formal dinner at which I, and a couple of hundred other people, were present. The perp relied on the victim's incredulity, and her reluctance to create a public scene, to get away with it. It later transpired that he had done this to many, many other people.

I'm not sure that I'm following the objections of some of the posters upthread to the action that FO Pina has taken. Nobody is suggesting that merely because she has levelled an accusation, what she says ought to be taken as unquestioned truth. She has asked the civil courts to render a verdict, and on her will rest the burden of convincing a jury of her, and the defendant's, peers that she is telling the truth. Previous experience shows that she faces an uphill job in doing so. But she is surely entitled at least to seek redress by these means.

Like Cows above, my belief is that in the world of commercial aviation, many more such cases exist than ever see the light of day. The chance to occupy the left-hand seat in the cockpit is keenly contested; deciding who fills it is almost entirely in the hands of men; and opportunities to shunt an aspirant off the path—or to ensure that her or his professional career will go thus far but no further—are not few. Boat-rocking of any kind is not encouraged in aviation circles. My guess is that any successful woman pilot will have had to grit her teeth quite a few times along the way, and that some of them will have had to put up with a great deal more than that.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 03:06
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I've sure guessed wrong these cases before.

In a 2002 lawsuit where a female SkyWest FO claimed that a male pilot exposed himself on, uh, short final I predicted:

Ms. Manjarrez will probably get an out of court settlement from her employer whether the allegations are true or not.
Pilot sues Delta Connection Carrier

Turns out SkyWest took the case to court and won. Oddly enough, the claim of a male copilot waving at the female captain without using his hands seems to be urban legend in several variations at multiple carriers.

Some versions have the plane diverting only to have the accused save himself at the upcoming hearing by wisely pulling the CVR circuit breaker to preserve evidence of his innocence.

I've even heard a version of this tale that supposedly takes place in the sim. And, I'm pretty sure I've heard versions of this narrative well before 2002.

I'm not sure the CVR recording can be used in a disciplinary hearing either way but I may be wrong, that's why we have lawyers.

Originally Posted by Sailvi767
We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.
This case has a similar possible motive of a missed report on probation with alcohol involved. That's the devil's advocate answer to the claim that she would have no reason to lie and risk her career.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 03:27
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Very touchy subject, and already it seems, emotions are running high.

I definitely sympathize with Victims and understand their reasons for not going straight to police, or the circumstances which might prevent them from doing so. Unfortunately the longer they wait, the more it becomes a case of He said/She said as most evidence is long gone. That's not "Victim blaming" it's the unfortunate reality of facts. The Drugs have long since left the victims system, DNA has washed away and witnesses memories fade.

If this case causes more women to come forward, then it's highly likely the Captain is guilty. While there's a first time for everything, I doubt he would have chosen a colleague on a layover as his first date rape victim. As such, he's probably done it before... or not at all. But that's just my opinion.

Unfortunately, I fear movements such as a #Metoo are actually doing more harm than good. While there's no doubt in my mind that Harvey Weinstein is a pig of a man who abused his position, I also have no doubts that some actresses were willing to do anything to advance their careers, enabling his behaviour. Remember folks, being a misogynistic arsehole isn't illegal. There's been a lot of allegations, but (to my knowledge) no charges have been laid.

Honestly, I don't have any answers with how we deal with Rape allegations any differently. Some men are Rapists and I have zero sympathy for their lives being destroyed, but some women are also liars, and their victims have their lives destroyed before it even goes to court. I suppose, both parties should have total name supression while the investigation and trial is completed.
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