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Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

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Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

Old 23rd Mar 2018, 00:29
  #161 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by costalpilot
Criminal complaints tend to look similar, particularly within the same
county or court. Prosecuting offices have templates that they adjust
depending on the case at hand.
Uh, you do realize don't you that this is not a criminal complaint?
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 00:38
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
Uh, you do realize don't you that this is not a criminal complaint?
a complaint is a complaint..its got nothing to do with evidence. confused indeed
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 01:19
  #163 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by costalpilot
confused indeed
I can see that. I rest my case.
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 01:49
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Originally Posted by costalpilot
a complaint is a complaint..its got nothing to do with evidence. confused indeed
A wide gap between civil and criminal law. A criminal complaint in the U.S. is filed by either the district attorney or a grand jury, and only after probable-cause evidence has been presented in support of the complaint.

No evidence is required for a civil lawsuit complaint.

Huge, huge, difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 08:21
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There is no evidence, only 2 accounts of what happened that night, maybe his account is true, maybe hers is true, maybe both are invention, we will never know. Her lawyers have told her she has no chance of a winning a case against him and could be sued for defamination if she tries, so they have dreamt up some kind of unfair treatment case against the employer.
The employer is in a no win position, they have to respond to the case so it is going to cost a great deal in legal costs, they are likely to loose a court hearing with a jury because a jury always favors the poor defendant against the big bad company. So they will settle out of court with a NDA, that's the way it is, a big payday for her and the lawyers, nothing whatsoever to do with " me too ".
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 12:30
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aterpster
A wide gap between civil and criminal law. A criminal complaint in the U.S. is filed by either the district attorney or a grand jury, and only after probable-cause evidence has been presented in support of the complaint.

No evidence is required for a civil lawsuit complaint.

Huge, huge, difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In UK a completely groundless complaint can be chucked out as vexatious, abuse of process etc with costs. If there's a no win/no fee agreement then lawyers will assess probable-cause evidence before proceeding.

I suspect it's same in most if not all states in US.
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 13:21
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
There is no evidence, only 2 accounts of what happened that night, .... .
There's likely plenty of evidence although perhaps not of the absolute 'presence of body fluids' and 'clear physical signs of struggle.' But there will likely be witnesses to the events preceding, phone logs, perhaps security video, accounts of who told whom what in aftermath. If that evidence tends to buttress one version over the other and especially if there seems to have been sufficient prior incapacitation so as to render meaningful consent impossible, then the outcome of either the civil case in court or the decsion of one side to fold before going to trial will reflect that.

And a civil case against the employer often makes good legal sense (not just because of deep pockets) if the cause of action occurred while the employed individual was on company time and business and company policies governed behavior for safety or other reasons
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 14:30
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Originally Posted by 4468
It’s almost impossible to avoid the conclusion, this is just all about money. Lot’s of it!
That is what civil cases are for; damages.

Consider, a car driven by an employee of a common carrier leaves the road and smashes through your your fence. The evidence to meet the (quite properly) very high bar to obtain a criminal conviction for trespass is insufficient perhaps because you can't establish the identity of the driver of he claims persuasively he swerved to avoid a child.

Still you sue the company for damages to have your fence repaired and to recover the costs you incurred while the fence was damaged as a consequence of the trespass. Those losses could be significant depending on the circumstances and could include punitive and well as compensatory damages if gross negligence (such as the driver, irrespective of the circumstances, was in violation of employer's safety policies regarding route and driving time.)

Do you really believe that your decision to sue for damages should be pilloried because a criminal conviction was unobtainable for any reason, including (perhaps) your own failure to secure evidence or your confusion in the immediate aftermath?

I'm not drawing conclusions. I'm simply trying to point out that the absence of a criminal complaint or even a report to police does not rule out legitimate cause for civil action.

I fully admit this is an imperfect analogy and I'm not trying to be argumentative, simply that it is unfair to presume damages didn't result or an act didn't occur because an individual or the state chose not to seek a criminal charge.

Last edited by voyageur9; 23rd Mar 2018 at 14:35. Reason: typo
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 14:52
  #169 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Airbanda
In UK a completely groundless complaint can be chucked out as vexatious, abuse of process etc with costs. If there's a no win/no fee agreement then lawyers will assess probable-cause evidence before proceeding.

I suspect it's same in most if not all states in US.
Pretty much the same, except it is usually thrown out when it is a Frivolous Lawsuit, as opposed to vexatious, upon which the plaintiff must pay his and the defendant's legal fees.

Then, the defendant can sue the plaintiff for malicious prosecution.

Depending upon the facts presently known to Alaska Airlines, they might take the plaintiff to the mat, so to speak, rather than caving to a confidential settlement.

(Vexatious litigant in the U.S. is generally one who files repetitive frivolous lawsuits.)
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 15:29
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Depending upon the facts presently known to Alaska Airlines, they might take the plaintiff to the mat.
Especially if they have seen the mysterious security video and it casts doubt on the FO's version. They would easily have seen it if the hotel (not in a great position so far) let them. Why not?
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 17:03
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aterpster
A wide gap between civil and criminal law. A criminal complaint in the U.S. is filed by either the district attorney or a grand jury, and only after probable-cause evidence has been presented in support of the complaint.

No evidence is required for a civil lawsuit complaint.

Huge, huge, difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the issue was not about the difference between a civil and a criminal charge. It was only about the nature of a filing document, i.e. the Complaint.

and whether or not the observation that the "suit" appears "long on accusation and short on evidence" was helpful or not.

as My Cousin Vinny would say, "I'm not laying my cards on the table b4 the bid."
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 20:40
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by costalpilot
the issue was not about the difference between a civil and a criminal charge. It was only about the nature of a filing document, i.e. the Complaint.

and whether or not the observation that the "suit" appears "long on accusation and short on evidence" was helpful or not.

as My Cousin Vinny would say, "I'm not laying my cards on the table b4 the bid."
Your point is well taken that what has been filed to date is merely the complaint, and that evidence would be normally presented later, at trial. It's worth noting though, that the complaint only makes reference to what the plaintiff (Pina) was allegedly told, by a third party about what the hotel security video showed. If I were filing a complaint, and I had video whcih proved my claims, I'd phrase it as; "the video shows ... " not as; " I was told by X that the video shows ..." This seems to suggest that the plaintiff in not in possession of that video, and has not even seen it herself. Yes, it could be a case of keeping cards close to the chest until the right moment, but I'm not sure what advantage can be gained from that with the video. Supposedly, Alaska's attorney has seen the video, and it either shows what Pina claims it shows, or it doesn't. If it does, then there's no element of surprise to be gained because company representatives have already seen it, and Pina has already made statements about what she claims it shows. Also, given that Pina has embarked on a media campaign regarding her allegations with interviews and appearances, it seems if there was video which showed the Captain dragging her into his room while she tries to escape, and she was in possession of said video, she would providing it to the media outlets she is using for her campaign. Certainly seeing a video clip of that would turn me from a "wait and see" skeptic to someone who believes her account. I would imagine a lot of others would be the same. So in consideration of all that, I'm thinking that she doesn't have the video and/or it doesn't show what she claims, and it may not even exist any more.
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 20:49
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
There is no evidence, only 2 accounts of what happened that night, maybe his account is true, maybe hers is true, maybe both are invention, we will never know.
It's worth reiterating that we only have one account; Hers. Neither the captain in question nor Alaska have publicly made any statements about the incident. (other than Alaska's non-statement that they are investigating and take this seriously) All information (true or false) that we have before us has been supplied by Pina.

Last edited by A Squared; 24th Mar 2018 at 07:05.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 08:39
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I was rather assuming that the captain has been interviewed by the airline about the background to this complaint and of course will put an innocent gloss on his account, because something happened. The fact that both were unable to fly next day will have been noted on his record, anything further will damage his career and maybe personal life.

Her case that she was treated wrongly by the company has some merit, according to earlier posts she took 6 months leave (voluntary?) whereas he continued flying, did she receive the " correct" handling by the company. Together with the media appearances it is publicity the company needs to get rid of quickly, does anyone want to bet against her getting a payoff.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 14:54
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
I was rather assuming that the captain has been interviewed by the airline about the background to this complaint and of course will put an innocent gloss on his account, because something happened. The fact that both were unable to fly next day will have been noted on his record, anything further will damage his career and maybe personal life.
I worked under an ALPA contract, as does the subject captain. Any derogatory written comments or discipline by the company would be removed from the pilot's personnel file after 3 years and upon the pilot's request. The exception was comments or discipline directly pertaining to aircraft operation.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 16:14
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Her case that she was treated wrongly by the company after the event has some merit.

Maybe, but that is not the main complaint in the lawsuit. It is that Workplace Rape took place and she wants damages for that.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 20:40
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Interesting to see so many of those who tell non-pilots to lay off the keyboard now pretending to be lawyers. Stick to your day jobs boys - itís quite clear you have little to no idea of what you type.
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Old 26th Mar 2018, 01:35
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Originally Posted by WillFlyForCheese
Interesting to see so many of those who tell non-pilots to lay off the keyboard now pretending to be lawyers. Stick to your day jobs boys - itís quite clear you have little to no idea of what you type.
To help the thread along, please give us your clarity.
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Old 29th Mar 2018, 16:10
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Betty has gone quiet ...
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Old 29th Mar 2018, 16:47
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Originally Posted by oldchina
Betty has gone quiet ...
Suit filed and publicity round done. Presumably next step is for Alaska Airlines to file a defence followed by judges directions, disclosure etc abd a hearing in 2019 though I'd expect it to be settled before the court doors open.

Here in UK we've recently had a deal of publicity about a multiple offender named John Warboys whose MO was to drug and rape/sexually assault youn women in back of his London taxi. Like complainant in this case they report odd tasting drink, walls closing in and eventually waking up grossly confused and with amnesia. Recollection of what might have happened to them comes more slowly than time for next shower etc. Forensics long gone.

All of which is corroborative as to why Ms Pinar might not have reported rape promptly. By time two and two were put together any criminal trial will be he said/she said where he presumably avers consent. Such cases, with a criminal standard of proof, are a lottery as to outcome and the sort of nightmare procedurally and evidentialy that lawyers will want to avoid. In UK CPS would drop it like a hot potato -would it be same with a DA in US?

OTOH whatever happened occurred on duty. The standard of proof is civil - balance of probability. Good legal advice for her would be that it's better to deal with it as an Employment issue. She goes down that line but Employer's inquiry seems to be going nowhere and he's getting the clean end of the stick while she feels she's getting the shi**y end.

Reasonable at that point to up the ante. That's how Employemnt cases go.
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