Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?
You have described the Bus missed approach SOP flyhardmo.
I am with "gazumped". Would you really cancel a flight because the automatics are not working?
I have said it on Prune before but I will say it again. I can well remember hand flying a DC-10 from London to LAX. It WAS an unusual occurrence but, when we had all discussed it as a crew and having reviewed the weather etc, we decided to get on with it. It was not a problem.
So now I am being led to believe that a B777 crew are unable to carry out a G/A without causing a disaster in VMC conditions because they are unable to revert to basics when the automatics don't work as they thought and all I hear from the modern thinkers is that DXB should have 65 wind monitors at every corner of the terminal (including the Duty Free Shop).
Thank God I have retired and have discovered cruise liners!
I have said it on Prune before but I will say it again. I can well remember hand flying a DC-10 from London to LAX. It WAS an unusual occurrence but, when we had all discussed it as a crew and having reviewed the weather etc, we decided to get on with it. It was not a problem.
So now I am being led to believe that a B777 crew are unable to carry out a G/A without causing a disaster in VMC conditions because they are unable to revert to basics when the automatics don't work as they thought and all I hear from the modern thinkers is that DXB should have 65 wind monitors at every corner of the terminal (including the Duty Free Shop).
Thank God I have retired and have discovered cruise liners!
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Would you really cancel a flight because the automatics are not working?
Thank god I have retired
and have discovered cruise liners.
Fare well.
JW
Off the top of my head I think you cannot enter RVSM airspace without an a/p. Need a lot of extra gas below FL 280!
BBK
PS while I think of it I believe the UK CAA stipulate that go arounds in the sim be flown with a simulated failed a/t. Good idea in the light of this accident perhaps. So Select TOGA but follow up manually.
Off the top of my head I think you cannot enter RVSM airspace without an a/p. Need a lot of extra gas below FL 280!
BBK
PS while I think of it I believe the UK CAA stipulate that go arounds in the sim be flown with a simulated failed a/t. Good idea in the light of this accident perhaps. So Select TOGA but follow up manually.
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Seriously ???
Reading some of the posts here on this tread, I really really hope that I never ever get to ride as a passenger with some of you posters up front.
I will admit that I have zero experience on both Boeing and Airbus liners or for that matter any other make of civilian airliner, but If any of the posters I refer to, seriously consider a go around, before or after touchdown, a difficult, complicated and stressful maneuver, they are in the wrong place and in my humble opinion there is no room for them in the cockpit. None what so ever!
A go around prior to contact with the runway should be as natural as changing your descent to a climb. A go around after touchdown should be considered as nothing more than a take-off with a head start. Oh yes some will argue, but the airliner is a complicated and automated machine. It needs to have this and that switch pressed and you need to raise the gear and the flaps, and you need to let tower know, and you need this and that…
No you don’t! Aviate – Navigate – Communicate. Fly your aircraft first and foremost, be that full manual or full automatic mode, I don’t care, but you better know your systems if you relay on automation. And you better be able to hand fly the thing if you chose to go manual or even worse, if you are forced to do so due to system malfunction. You actually don’t need to retract the gear right away, and you don’t need to retract the flaps either. If in doubt, keep the configuration as it is and fly the aircraft. You can always fly a full pattern in the configuration you had 1 second prior to landing and the same goes for 1 second after.
Once the aircraft is fully established in the climb, and your attitude, altitude and speed is under control, then go ahead raise the gear and flaps, follow your missed approach procedure (navigate) and let tower know (communicate). And you know what, even if you manage to overspeed the gear or the flaps, or even both, you won’t turn into a pumpkin. But you will, and that is guaranteed, turn into a pumpkin, if you stall or CFIT while not aviating.
Sure enough, you might have to explain to the company chief pilot why and how you ended up without your gear doors or with overstressed flaps, but then be a man and tell him how it is his responsibility to make sure that the company policy ensures all pilots are fully able to tackle a simple scenario like a go around.
I can continue with this all day, but I think I have made my point.
I don’t blame the Emirates 777 crew. They did not board that aircraft with the intention to crash. It’s the responsibility of their company to provide them with adequate and repeated training both flying and knowing the systems, and it is the regulators responsibility to verify and ensure that the company meets these requirements.
But I blame this crew for not having enough insight as to know about their own limitations and abilities. And I blame them for not having enough integrity to just elect not to fly and endanger themselves and hundreds of pax, until fully qualified.
Some of you will argue that it’s all about the money and that one has to make a living. Seriously, are you really that desperate that you are willing to risk your life (and mine too)?
My speed over the threshold is usually between 150-160 knots, but occasionally, due to circumstances beyond my control, it will be as fast as 190 knots. I don’t have some guy next to me monitoring all my actions and taking care of the comms and setting up the ILS. I don’t have all the automation to keep my speed within limits. I raise and lover my flap and gear all by myself. But I cope, and I have never feared a go-around. Why? Because I practice. And because I study and I know my systems. I am prepared! And sure I make mistakes, but most of those happened in a controlled environment (something called training), those that happen on real missions are only minor, and usually I catch those and stop them from snowballing on me. And if they start snowballing, so what, I go around and try again.
What I wrote here is nothing new. It is old news. It was already old news 20 years ago. Do not continue to make the same mistake over and over again. Especially not while I’m in the back of your aircraft!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10
If you consider yourself a professional then you better act like one.
Seeya
I will admit that I have zero experience on both Boeing and Airbus liners or for that matter any other make of civilian airliner, but If any of the posters I refer to, seriously consider a go around, before or after touchdown, a difficult, complicated and stressful maneuver, they are in the wrong place and in my humble opinion there is no room for them in the cockpit. None what so ever!
A go around prior to contact with the runway should be as natural as changing your descent to a climb. A go around after touchdown should be considered as nothing more than a take-off with a head start. Oh yes some will argue, but the airliner is a complicated and automated machine. It needs to have this and that switch pressed and you need to raise the gear and the flaps, and you need to let tower know, and you need this and that…
No you don’t! Aviate – Navigate – Communicate. Fly your aircraft first and foremost, be that full manual or full automatic mode, I don’t care, but you better know your systems if you relay on automation. And you better be able to hand fly the thing if you chose to go manual or even worse, if you are forced to do so due to system malfunction. You actually don’t need to retract the gear right away, and you don’t need to retract the flaps either. If in doubt, keep the configuration as it is and fly the aircraft. You can always fly a full pattern in the configuration you had 1 second prior to landing and the same goes for 1 second after.
Once the aircraft is fully established in the climb, and your attitude, altitude and speed is under control, then go ahead raise the gear and flaps, follow your missed approach procedure (navigate) and let tower know (communicate). And you know what, even if you manage to overspeed the gear or the flaps, or even both, you won’t turn into a pumpkin. But you will, and that is guaranteed, turn into a pumpkin, if you stall or CFIT while not aviating.
Sure enough, you might have to explain to the company chief pilot why and how you ended up without your gear doors or with overstressed flaps, but then be a man and tell him how it is his responsibility to make sure that the company policy ensures all pilots are fully able to tackle a simple scenario like a go around.
I can continue with this all day, but I think I have made my point.
I don’t blame the Emirates 777 crew. They did not board that aircraft with the intention to crash. It’s the responsibility of their company to provide them with adequate and repeated training both flying and knowing the systems, and it is the regulators responsibility to verify and ensure that the company meets these requirements.
But I blame this crew for not having enough insight as to know about their own limitations and abilities. And I blame them for not having enough integrity to just elect not to fly and endanger themselves and hundreds of pax, until fully qualified.
Some of you will argue that it’s all about the money and that one has to make a living. Seriously, are you really that desperate that you are willing to risk your life (and mine too)?
My speed over the threshold is usually between 150-160 knots, but occasionally, due to circumstances beyond my control, it will be as fast as 190 knots. I don’t have some guy next to me monitoring all my actions and taking care of the comms and setting up the ILS. I don’t have all the automation to keep my speed within limits. I raise and lover my flap and gear all by myself. But I cope, and I have never feared a go-around. Why? Because I practice. And because I study and I know my systems. I am prepared! And sure I make mistakes, but most of those happened in a controlled environment (something called training), those that happen on real missions are only minor, and usually I catch those and stop them from snowballing on me. And if they start snowballing, so what, I go around and try again.
What I wrote here is nothing new. It is old news. It was already old news 20 years ago. Do not continue to make the same mistake over and over again. Especially not while I’m in the back of your aircraft!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10
If you consider yourself a professional then you better act like one.
Seeya
F16Guy. Whilst I agree with everything you say, why is it that during my career I have seen many a fast jet pilot & others, make similar mistakes as this crew did? Luckily their mistakes were picked up by the other pilot or the mistake was made on the sim. IMHO their are no aces in this "game" we are humans after all.
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all I hear from the modern thinkers is that DXB should have 65 wind monitors at every corner of the terminal (including the Duty Free Shop).
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Config changes on a G/A are a complete waste of time...until thrust increase has been verified..... because if you don't have a thrust increase, config changes won't do anything for you.
In a 3 second period, apparently, this crew raised the flaps, took and acknowledged a clearance and raised the gear.... but for 12 seconds, T/L's stayed in idle.
Has anyone tried to do a G/A in the sim with gear and full flap....just to see if this aircraft will do it? Just to give confidence that a 3 second delay in a config change to verify thrust, will not hugely affect INITIAL G/A performance with gear and flap?
I know SFA about the 777. Is there a multiple failure scenario where you have to manually extend the gear (so no retraction...Hyd failure??)... and perhaps don't select full flap till committed to the landing because of half flap speed or no flap retract (elec/hyd fault??) in case of G/A.... But then you have to G/A anyway... due to say, runway incursion, RAAS etc etc. Knowing the capability of the aircraft will help in times of abnormal situations.
Knowing if Mr RR or Mr GE will give you a better chance of a successful outcome compared to Mr Dowty's brakes or a drag reduction is knowledge that will save lives.
In a 3 second period, apparently, this crew raised the flaps, took and acknowledged a clearance and raised the gear.... but for 12 seconds, T/L's stayed in idle.
Has anyone tried to do a G/A in the sim with gear and full flap....just to see if this aircraft will do it? Just to give confidence that a 3 second delay in a config change to verify thrust, will not hugely affect INITIAL G/A performance with gear and flap?
I know SFA about the 777. Is there a multiple failure scenario where you have to manually extend the gear (so no retraction...Hyd failure??)... and perhaps don't select full flap till committed to the landing because of half flap speed or no flap retract (elec/hyd fault??) in case of G/A.... But then you have to G/A anyway... due to say, runway incursion, RAAS etc etc. Knowing the capability of the aircraft will help in times of abnormal situations.
Knowing if Mr RR or Mr GE will give you a better chance of a successful outcome compared to Mr Dowty's brakes or a drag reduction is knowledge that will save lives.
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And all this talk of further automation to monitor the automation????
It would be cheaper to bring back the flight engineer to monitor the only 2 things on a flight deck that are going to kill him and everyone else!!!!!
It would be cheaper to bring back the flight engineer to monitor the only 2 things on a flight deck that are going to kill him and everyone else!!!!!
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I am quite surprised that so many on here are dismissive of anyone "who cannot fly a GA" with no distinction between the planned and unplanned versions. Missed Approach procedure will be included in the midair briefing but I dont think anyone ever says here's what we will do if we bounce 85 ft or land with the wheels up. Both events happened to this crew and they must have been shocked to the core. Though faced with a fast diminishing runway as well they still managed to do a dry Sullenburger.
And another thing, while so much is automated shouldnt there be inhibition of raising the gear until certain actions and height are met?
And another thing, while so much is automated shouldnt there be inhibition of raising the gear until certain actions and height are met?
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In a 3 second period, apparently, this crew raised the flaps, took and acknowledged a clearance and raised the gear.... but for 12 seconds, T/L's stayed in idle.
[/QUOTE]
This accident seems to be a CRM breakdown, cultures don't get more different between Oz and ME? different experience? maybe the gradient went the wrong way in the flight deck?
Listening to the tower recording I don't recall hearing the FO tell ATC we are going around rather than being given an instruction to climb 4000, could have been distracting if this was the case.
ATC in UAE is very good but some controllers can have an attitude and a sharp tongue, priority to answer ATC over monitoring?
Nothing wrong with EK SOPs or Boeings re the go around procedure, but I can imagine what was going through the skippers mind when the RAS call outs started, at trip to the office, removed from roster, friends asking what you did, in a career we will all end up in the office, the guys working in the office see it everyday, they will tell you this.
Trying to land a 777 on a hot runway at max landing weight with a tailwind in often turbulent air (the touch down zone comes and goes pretty quickly)its what we are paid to do, is it pleasant? Not always, sitting next a brand new guy who has demonstrated little situational awareness through out the flight who we've never seen land before, this can be stressful.
I feel very sorry for the crew I just hope we can take something positive away from this as more comes out in the future.
Happy flying guys, Enos
[/QUOTE]
This accident seems to be a CRM breakdown, cultures don't get more different between Oz and ME? different experience? maybe the gradient went the wrong way in the flight deck?
Listening to the tower recording I don't recall hearing the FO tell ATC we are going around rather than being given an instruction to climb 4000, could have been distracting if this was the case.
ATC in UAE is very good but some controllers can have an attitude and a sharp tongue, priority to answer ATC over monitoring?
Nothing wrong with EK SOPs or Boeings re the go around procedure, but I can imagine what was going through the skippers mind when the RAS call outs started, at trip to the office, removed from roster, friends asking what you did, in a career we will all end up in the office, the guys working in the office see it everyday, they will tell you this.
Trying to land a 777 on a hot runway at max landing weight with a tailwind in often turbulent air (the touch down zone comes and goes pretty quickly)its what we are paid to do, is it pleasant? Not always, sitting next a brand new guy who has demonstrated little situational awareness through out the flight who we've never seen land before, this can be stressful.
I feel very sorry for the crew I just hope we can take something positive away from this as more comes out in the future.
Happy flying guys, Enos
Last edited by Enos; 7th Sep 2016 at 21:40.
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A GA after landing...............oh my oh my how complicated can you get......?
Sounds awfully like a touch and go. ........meat and taties for any student pilot.
Suggesting this is a difficult manoeuvre is just ludicrous in the extreme. The only difficulty would be in doing it using all automatics and and trying to get everything done in a 3 second window, reply to ATC and making it look as elegant as possible.
Two steps are required 1 push the power levers up
2 select and hold an attitude slightly above level
Everything else is to make it look pretty, you know flap back a notch, positive rate ( I was taught VSI and ALT both sustained increasing, and visually departing Mother Earth)......... After a suitable pause..........gear up.
As for hand flying above FL280, you must have a serviceable A/P, I don't recall if you actually have to use it.
Let me propose a hypothetical, ..........
if the crew of AF447 had seen and flown their aircraft in the past as a regular habit in the cruise and seen from experience exactly what a typical climb and cruise attitude looked like............ Do you honestly think they would have selected 29 degrees nose up to prevent a possible overspeed?
Let me now ask all of the assembled..............would you be able to hand fly your aircraft in the cruise accurately + or - 100'. and can you tell me what the level flight attitude is with F/D's off?
So now explain to me what use RVSM was to AF447, and which skill was more important, managing the automatics or being able to hand fly the aircraft?
Explain to me how Air Asia X crew tried to solve their navigation problem with automatics, and by the captains admission a "dire emergency was only avoided by ATC vectoring them"...... all the way to Melbourne. Another crew completely incapable of hand flying the aircraft on raw data after the automatics didn't do as expected.
How many of these crew are out there operating ok so long as the automatics work............and more to the point how many crew are latent accidents waiting for the automatics to fail?
What guarantee can anyone provide me automatics never failing, or doing something unintended? In fact it would appear that the biggest risk to modern jet fleet is exactly this scenario,........automatics stuff up......and crew not equipped to pick up the pieces.
IMHO the insidious decline in hand flying skills is a time bomb ticking away, and it would appear to be periodically detonating.......
Sounds awfully like a touch and go. ........meat and taties for any student pilot.
Suggesting this is a difficult manoeuvre is just ludicrous in the extreme. The only difficulty would be in doing it using all automatics and and trying to get everything done in a 3 second window, reply to ATC and making it look as elegant as possible.
Two steps are required 1 push the power levers up
2 select and hold an attitude slightly above level
Everything else is to make it look pretty, you know flap back a notch, positive rate ( I was taught VSI and ALT both sustained increasing, and visually departing Mother Earth)......... After a suitable pause..........gear up.
As for hand flying above FL280, you must have a serviceable A/P, I don't recall if you actually have to use it.
Let me propose a hypothetical, ..........
if the crew of AF447 had seen and flown their aircraft in the past as a regular habit in the cruise and seen from experience exactly what a typical climb and cruise attitude looked like............ Do you honestly think they would have selected 29 degrees nose up to prevent a possible overspeed?
Let me now ask all of the assembled..............would you be able to hand fly your aircraft in the cruise accurately + or - 100'. and can you tell me what the level flight attitude is with F/D's off?
So now explain to me what use RVSM was to AF447, and which skill was more important, managing the automatics or being able to hand fly the aircraft?
Explain to me how Air Asia X crew tried to solve their navigation problem with automatics, and by the captains admission a "dire emergency was only avoided by ATC vectoring them"...... all the way to Melbourne. Another crew completely incapable of hand flying the aircraft on raw data after the automatics didn't do as expected.
How many of these crew are out there operating ok so long as the automatics work............and more to the point how many crew are latent accidents waiting for the automatics to fail?
What guarantee can anyone provide me automatics never failing, or doing something unintended? In fact it would appear that the biggest risk to modern jet fleet is exactly this scenario,........automatics stuff up......and crew not equipped to pick up the pieces.
IMHO the insidious decline in hand flying skills is a time bomb ticking away, and it would appear to be periodically detonating.......
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Dependency/complacency, whatever you want to call it the end result is a smashed up 777 because nobody was aware of what was going on. I don't blame the crew, like others said they had no intention of crashing a plane that day. But **** happens! I have seen the 777 rosters at EK, they are brutal and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that fatigue played a huge part in this.
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TDZ
This is why you should get into the habit of landing in the touchdown zone or going around asap if it isn't happening. Simple to remember, helps keep your stick and rudder sharp, and would have avoided this outcome.
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Stop the presses......
Allow the use of Airmanship, rather than trying to create a set of rules that tries, but fails miserably, to cover every set of eventualities.
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We can focus on obvious things like the need of increasing thrust in a GA.
But I hope the investigation committee will say something about the punitive environment at this airlines (and also other airlines), which for me is the basis of this accident. It prevents pilots from properly flying their aircraft and/or execute proper judgement and make them act as robots instead.
But I hope the investigation committee will say something about the punitive environment at this airlines (and also other airlines), which for me is the basis of this accident. It prevents pilots from properly flying their aircraft and/or execute proper judgement and make them act as robots instead.
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DISSERTATION ABOUT BEING A CAPTAIN
If we could establish a list of the best qualities displayed by all the Captains that we have encountered and known, we would have the ideal Captain's description. We know that to get an ideal Captain, according to this list, it would be really difficult if not impossible. However, we could analyze diverse aspects related to the responsibilities of a Captain, auto-evaluate and define an ideal that they have shown us with dignity.
Decisions Making Process and Safety.
First and foremost, the objective is the safety of the flight. The rules and regulations give you the authority to take any action that you consider necessary in order to guarantee the safety of the flight. Any time you have a doubt taking a decision related to something that impacts the safety of the operation, be conservative. If you make a mistake, it should be for benefit of Safety.
When you experience difficulties in taking a decision, ask yourself this question: “What am I suppose to do?” You will never end up with problems if you do what you are supposed to do.
Decisions Making Process and Safety.
First and foremost, the objective is the safety of the flight. The rules and regulations give you the authority to take any action that you consider necessary in order to guarantee the safety of the flight. Any time you have a doubt taking a decision related to something that impacts the safety of the operation, be conservative. If you make a mistake, it should be for benefit of Safety.
When you experience difficulties in taking a decision, ask yourself this question: “What am I suppose to do?” You will never end up with problems if you do what you are supposed to do.
Let me now ask all of the assembled..............would you be able to hand fly your aircraft in the cruise accurately + or - 100'. and can you tell me what the level flight attitude is with F/D's off?
2/ 3 degrees and 88% at normal weights and altitudes
This is basic stuff in my airline, I remember being grilled on it as a new f/o .If you fly for a descent outfit it can be hard to believe that some folk don't know these things. I have flown in parts of the world where many of the pilots don't know basic stuff like this. The difference in standards as you make your way around the globe is staggering.
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IcePack,
You missed my point. This is not a military vs civilian pissing contest. I know lots of civilian pilots that I consider to be aces. And I know lots of military pilots who suck. The main difference is that in the military we will provide pilots who suck with the required training in a controlled environment, until they become safe pilots. If we cannot achieve and maintain that with training they will be washed out! We simply don’t have room for them in the cockpits.
I have also seen military top notch pilots change into unsafe pilots once over in the civilian world due to lack of sustained training. Skills will degrade over time if you don’t actively seek to maintain them. You get good at what you practice!
portmanteau,
There is no such thing as a planned Go Around. The planned version is called a low approach and a Touch and Go respectively before and after contact with the runway. You don’t need to brief what to do if you end up bouncing 85 ft. I assume that you already know what to do. If not, stay out of the cockpit. You don’t brief an unplanned gear up landing either, but if you end up in one, try to keep it on the centerline and pull the power back. And if you want to make it a textbook unplanned gear up landing, remember to set the gear handle to the down position before evacuating the cockpit. That way you will follow normal behavior for an unplanned belly flop….
gazumped,
Good post. Pitch and Power (or Control and Performance) will save the day. I know by heart a rough Pitch and Power Settings for any phase of the flight. And I use it on a daily basis. Every time I need to enter a new phase of flight (Climb, cruise, descent etc.) I start by setting the rough Pitch and Power that will match what I need. Then when everything settles down I make minor corrections to nail the parameters I am looking for. Establish, Trim Cross-Check, Adjust……
You missed my point. This is not a military vs civilian pissing contest. I know lots of civilian pilots that I consider to be aces. And I know lots of military pilots who suck. The main difference is that in the military we will provide pilots who suck with the required training in a controlled environment, until they become safe pilots. If we cannot achieve and maintain that with training they will be washed out! We simply don’t have room for them in the cockpits.
I have also seen military top notch pilots change into unsafe pilots once over in the civilian world due to lack of sustained training. Skills will degrade over time if you don’t actively seek to maintain them. You get good at what you practice!
portmanteau,
There is no such thing as a planned Go Around. The planned version is called a low approach and a Touch and Go respectively before and after contact with the runway. You don’t need to brief what to do if you end up bouncing 85 ft. I assume that you already know what to do. If not, stay out of the cockpit. You don’t brief an unplanned gear up landing either, but if you end up in one, try to keep it on the centerline and pull the power back. And if you want to make it a textbook unplanned gear up landing, remember to set the gear handle to the down position before evacuating the cockpit. That way you will follow normal behavior for an unplanned belly flop….
gazumped,
Good post. Pitch and Power (or Control and Performance) will save the day. I know by heart a rough Pitch and Power Settings for any phase of the flight. And I use it on a daily basis. Every time I need to enter a new phase of flight (Climb, cruise, descent etc.) I start by setting the rough Pitch and Power that will match what I need. Then when everything settles down I make minor corrections to nail the parameters I am looking for. Establish, Trim Cross-Check, Adjust……
Paxing All Over The World
As pax, I wonder if the size and force of the bounce didn't rattle their teeth and delay their response? It may well have been the biggest and baddest bounce they had ever had and it may well have broken their train of thought. If both their mental AND physical composure had beeen lost, how long to refocus? If, meanwhile, they were taking actions they were used to, something could easily go awry.