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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:28
  #521 (permalink)  
 
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Pressing TOGA as laid down in boeing WS escape maneuver,will provide FD guidance to initial 15 deg,no guidance to MCP altitude at all.
You are correct in this statement de facto.
However you are most importantly WRONG in the logic behind the FD's.

Pressing TO/GA will command a thrust increase, for either case GA or WS Escape.
It does NOT differentiate between them when reaching an altitude preset in the MCP, it WILL acquire the altitude.

Hence there is a threat when a (low level) altitude for a missed approach is selected, as WS Escape will terminate...

Anticipate!
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:35
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap. If you don't practice now and again, sure your your handling might be a bit rough (i.e. not so smooth) but your not going to turn into a jellyfish...like some people on here seem to think. And if your company lets you turn the FD off then turn it off if you want, if they don't leave it on.

In any case the FD doesn't always have the same objective as the pilot flying with regards to rates etc etc....so begs the question, when the company says FD on..but do not specify.....FD on and follow the FD, do they actually want you to follow them? because if you haven't programmed them properly they may not give you the guidance you want...also if you begin a manoeuvre before updating the AP or FMC the FD is very slow to update and "join you" in the manoeuvre, I can only speak for one of the Boeing types I have operated where we were not restricted by SOP's.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:40
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not surprised that these poor guys possibly got something wrong. You only need to read the disagreements between qualified pilots on this thread. Quite frightening for SLF to read when you think about it!
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:41
  #524 (permalink)  
 
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Just looking at the one CCTV video, that wind looked hectic....gusting! No wonder the pilot pulled out.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:46
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...ERO_2014q3.pdf

Not long ago Boeing released this issue of their AERO Magazine...

"Performing Safe Go-Around Maneuvers"

Is one of the topics !

They describe few cases where things went south pretty fast during a Go Around, and I quote the following:

Extreme nose-down attitude. Since 2000,
several incidents have involved extreme
nose-down attitudes during the go-around
maneuver on different types of airplanes
from different manufacturers. These inci-
dents often result from a breakdown in
correct cockpit instrument scanning. Here
are some examples:

■ After the PF initiated a manual go-around
at night over the sea, at 1,000 feet
(305 meters), the PF kept a prolonged
pitch-down input resulting in a 15-degree
nose-down attitude and a dive that was
not recovered before the impact with the
sea. The amplitude and duration of the
initial reaction by the PF to the “pull-up”
warning from the ground proximity warn-
ing system (GPWS) was insufficient
(i.e., a full back stick input was required).

■ After the PF initiated a manual go-around
in instrument conditions, and approach-
ing 2,500 feet (762 meters), the flight
director altitude capture mode was
activated earlier than expected by the
crew because of a high rate of climb.
The PF manually initiated a level-off
but kept a prolonged pitch-down input
that resulted in a dive that reached
an extreme negative attitude (minus
40 degrees). The PF recovered from
the dive at about 400 feet (122 meters)
above the ground with a vertical accel-
eration of 3.6 g-force (g).

■ After the PF initiated a manual go-around
at night over the sea, the altitude acqui-
sition mode activated while approaching
the selected altitude and the PF pitched
down to level off. The indicated airspeed
increased toward the maximum for the
configuration. Instead of leveling off, the
PF kept a prolonged pitch-down input.
The attitude quickly decreased and
reached a negative 9-degree pitch with
a vertical speed of 4,000 feet (1,219
meters) per minute. When the GPWS
activated, the PF reacted by pitching the
airplane up. The minimum altitude was
600 feet (183 meters) over the sea. The
total duration of the event was about
15 seconds. Neither pilot could explain
the reason for the upset.

In all of these examples, pilots reacted
very late to extreme negative attitudes
displayed on both attitude director indicator
(ADI) instruments. All of these events
happened at night over a dark area or in
instrument meteorological conditions. At
the time of the upset, in the absence of
visual reference, the only attitude infor-
mation was provided by the ADIs. When
flying manually or when monitoring the auto-
pilot, the ADIs are at the center of a control
process in which pilots must detect and
then quickly and accurately correct devia-
tions from targeted values.

So... What do you guys think? The scenario here looks very close to the examples above, doesn't it?
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:47
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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I have never worked for, nor am I prepared to work for any "Airline" that forbids its flightcrew to fly manually or raw-data.

Any such company should have its AOC revoked immediately untill raw data manual flying is encouraged.

And I can not believe that any Capt. Of a modern airline is unable to fly an all engine raw-data ILS.

Don't all airlines practice complete assymetrical thrust raw-data ILS anymore in the sim? It is a pass/fail item where I came from!
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:47
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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How about the new FAR117 that is used in the US and Saudi Arabia, where pilots could fly 6 sectors per day, max rest time is 10 hours regardless of what time of the day you get your rest. 30 minutes after chocks on is considered part of the rest time. And the best is that pilots must sign a paper before each flight that they are fit to fly??? and if for any reason the pilot could not continue the full 4 or more sectors, then he is at fault because he already declared that he is fit. And the best part if you call fatigue for any reason, then you have to answer to the computer who would tell you that what you feel is not right because according to its calculation you are legal to fly.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:48
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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Hotel tango,When the automatics dont do what we want,we disconnect them,no worries here,thatis if pilots arent released to the line as captains unless they can fly an altitude,heading and speed without stress.
Skyjob,please refer an info you may have other than the sim did it.
The FD logic is different when TOGA is pressed in a windshear or not in a windshear.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:25
  #529 (permalink)  
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despegue:

I have never worked for, nor am I prepared to work for any "Airline" that forbids its flightcrew to fly manually or raw-data.

Any such company should have its AOC revoked immediately untill raw data manual flying is encouraged.

And I can not believe that any Capt. Of a modern airline is unable to fly an all engine raw-data ILS.

Don't all airlines practice complete assymetrical thrust raw-data ILS anymore in the sim? It is a pass/fail item where I came from!
I saw the beginning the "disease" in the 1980s. Prior to my transition to the early 767 everything was as you say on the 707, DC-9-10, 880, and 727. But, along comes the 767 and with it came a new embracing by the company of the automatics. IMHO, this was the way Boeing sold and promoted this then-new automatic "wonder." And, the airlines bought the philosophies the OEM sold. After my stint on the 767 I went to the L-1011. In my view the 1011 had better automatics than the 767 but my airline's training command wasn't hard over on the 1011 automatics like it was with the 767.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:32
  #530 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps PKP this is because the METARS frequently lie like NAAFI watch.

Trust me when I arrived in Dubai incidentally from THY where the rosters were loads easie to manage and much better in B737 fleet! I also found it odd, I was an FO then and the skippers would often ask for the actual weather.

After operating to all of the 18 Russian destinations from braking action poor, to -37 degC, to 35 kts across the Rwy in fog. I also sarted to ask the same question.

You call it mistrust if you want to. We call it experience! If you're experience of Russia is a Cat 2 into UUDD or UUEE then it is a very different world east of the Urals!
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:39
  #531 (permalink)  
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Quoted VictorC10
What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap. If you don't practice now and again, sure your your handling might be a bit rough (i.e. not so smooth) but your not going to turn into a jellyfish...like some people on here seem to think. And if your company lets you turn the FD off then turn it off if you want, if they don't leave it on.

VictorC10, from your quote I am guessing you have no experience as a trainer.
Because there is a HUGE difference in the required skill in flying with or without FDs ( Flight Directors). I can teach a 8 years old boy in a simulator to fly reasonably following a flight director. Because he just follows it blindly like a computer game and he does not scan or questions the FDs commands. But I need 45 minutes of hard training to make most captains to be able to fly a raw data ILS within limits. And most airlines don't seem to understand it, the same way you don't understand it.
From your remarks about, if my company allows me to switch off flight directors I deduced, that you are not allowed to switch off flight directors. If you did it, you would have a nasty surprise, how badly your skill deteriorated. I fly often without FDs to keep my skill. May be I am less talented, but I need it to do it once a week to keep my skill sharp. For those who are not pilots, Flight Directors make out of flying, unlike raw data no FDs flying, a simplified computer game, where the pilot just keeps a dot in a cross or similar design. And many pilots loose the ability to scan instruments. It is amazing, how fast the brain becomes a jelly, if you allow it to. I think that those who do not practise, play a russian rulette with he passengers. Because this skill does not come back under fatigue and stress. And your airline is playing russian rulette with passengers by not allowing yiu flying without FDs. Because that is the only way to get your scan back. At least do it in a nice sunny afternoon, with light winds.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:39
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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Luckily the comments re hand flying are not relevant here. Hand flying is encouraged and done often at FDB those who dont do it are because they chose not to.

It is so encouraged that all LVPs are hand flown to the ground. So lets not get into if the crew were proficient in hand flying.

Knackered, perhaps even likely but proficiency is likely as bad as other airlines when it comes to hand flying. Sister airline North of the RWY has handling sims because hand flying is not encouraged.

Lets stick to the facts.

Speaking of not sticking to the facts....

FlyDubai Crash In Russia Now Labeled “Criminal Act” After US Missile Fragments Found
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:55
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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From my notes,
Please see the difference between a FD in normal toga mode and one in enhanced WS recovery mode.
They may be displayed the same way,unlike for example an RA guidance but the system behind is different.
The sim may not display the difference or simply the system was out of the WS,FD go back to standard mode and alt acq mcp altitude.

The Flight Director was chosen as the guidance system because it is simple, displayed on the ADI, and pilots use it on a routine basis. The windshear recovery enhancement flight director will provide proper flight, path guidance only when operating in the TOGA pitch mode (i.e., with TOGA annunciated). The control inputs for the guidance come from vertical speed, airspeed and angle of attack. When using the windshear recovery enhanced flight guidance system, the command guidance control laws are:
• V/S Greater than 1200 fpm - The F/D will maintain a minimum of cursor speed.
• V/S Less than 1200 fpm and Down to 600 fpm - As the V/S decreases, the F/D command will slowly adjust from speed control to pitch control so that at 600 FPM the F/D will command 15 degrees pitch and disregard airspeed.V/S 600 fpm Down to 0 fpm - The F/D will slowly adjust from 15° pitch toward optimum pitch (the angle of attack for stick shaker minus 2 degrees).
• V/S Less than 0 fpm - The F/D will maintain the angle of attack for stick shaker minus 2 degrees.
When the aircraft departs the windshear environment, the flight director will smoothly transition back to the normal takeoff or go-around mode.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:00
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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Vortex With that link you've opend Pandoras box
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:03
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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I would doubt they'd go out in such atrocious weather.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:20
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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Trust me when I arrived in Dubai incidentally from THY where the rosters were loads easie to manage and much better in B737 fleet! I also found it odd, I was an FO then and the skippers would often ask for the actual weather.
Vortex ..I'm talking of Cpt rosters in THY..not FO that had it a quite bit easier. I flew 999,5 hours in 11 months... kind of enough for me bye bye. Ryanair is a dream airline if compared.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:23
  #537 (permalink)  
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Vortex Thing,
you are saying that LVP approaches in FDB are manually flown to the ground.
That is the extremely easy hand flying, as you are strictly following FDs.
So based on your reply, I think the crew do not practice efficient scanning, which can happen only in hand flying without FDs. Are we really professional people here, if we cannot distinguish there is a huge difference in the work load and skill if flying with or without FDs? I can teach 8 years old in 10 minutes in the sim to hand fly LVP all the way to the ground. But again, it takes 45 min of hard training to make a captain learn how to intercept an ILS and fly it to minimums.
As this skill is forgotten quickly, if not practised. From your quote is apparent that FDB is yet another airline where people do not practise scan.
And if I understand de facto correctly, in a go around on the Boeing is very easy to overcontrol and make the FDs crazy and consequently not being able to get it under control, unless you have the ability to see through them and choose a pitch and power. On Airbus the FDs dissapear, if you pitch more than 20 degrees, so you are instantly without a guidance of FDs. I am not sure if Boeing lets you in the dark too in this way. And yes. Having a good scanning ability is important. Can any experienced guy confirm, what I am talking about?
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:35
  #538 (permalink)  
 
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B737 are not easy to overcontrol,fds dont go crazy,however basic knowledge pitch and thrust for all phases of flight is paramount to a safe flight.
FD can be off during flight,not required,even by the automatics.(basically there for take off/GA and manual flight if required).
Boeing clearly says that pilots must know basics of flying,unfortunately because airlines dont ask for a certain level of manual flying,we end up with new checklists,,such as airspeed unreliable,designed to keep the aircraft from stalling or overspeeding while they reach for the basics of pitch and thrust.
Boeing also states in their manuals that the pilot should decrease automatics if needed...that is of course pilots can handle it.
You see they still believe pilots may have more problems with automatics than with manual flying....until you see some in the sim... a real mcp piano in progress..scary yes....
But sorry im drifting again,,,back to terrorists.....
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 16:11
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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Not long ago Boeing released this issue of their AERO Magazine...

They describe few cases where things went south pretty fast during a Go Around, and I quote the following:

So... What do you guys think? The scenario here looks very close to the examples above, doesn't it?
Thanks for those examples.

The first sounds like acceleration diorientation, which killed a number of fast jet pilots in the early years. The sim does not duplicate this well. I think it has been mentioned on this thread before.

The second two sound like stall confusion. In light training I have seen several pilots confuse zero-g with a stall, and so they push more and more to 'unstall' the aircraft. And if you are not careful, you end up pointing vertically down.

Another problem identified from this thread, is the poor understanding of systems and procedures by some pilots (presuming they fly) - not even understanding capture modes, for instance. This is due to the week of ground-training each year, being replaced by a stupid questionaire, that has no relevence to the operation whatsoever. Some office clerk goes through a manual and pulls out stupid facts that nobody needs - like "at what angle of bank will CWS level the wings 3, 4, or 5 degrees". Nobody ever uses CWS (never seen it used in 20 years) and nobody gives a stuff which exact degree is limiting (which you cannot measure anyway).

The result is a new generation of pilots who never discuss the primary flight and engineering issues of the aircraft, as a group in the classroom. And they never have overnights, so they have never sat in the bar listening to the grizzled old captain recounting all the gotchas on the aircraft, and so they know nothing. Each pilot in the fleet is reinventing his or her own wheel, and some coming up with penagons and hexagons. Its sad, because the entire history of aviation is being lost to a new generation who know next to nothing.

ST
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 16:23
  #540 (permalink)  
 
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You have a major flaw in your notes, de facto.
You are not required to press TOGA to get into WS mode. Only if you are on an ILS. This is from the FCOM. In reality it matters very little as we press TOGA as part of the manouver.
And your notes does not say a thing about altitude capture being inhibited during WS. In my experience, it is not. Nowhere is that stated in the FCOM.

B737SFPs quote from the Boeing article is very close to what I believe happened here. Read it and weep.

From the 737 NG FCOM:

Takeoff or Go–Around
If windshear is encountered during F/D takeoff or go–around, the F/D pitch command bar provides commands to maintain the target speed until vertical speed decreases to approximately +600 fpm. At this point, the F/D pitch bar commands a 15 degree nose–up pitch attitude. If vertical speed continues to decrease, the F/D continues to command a 15 degree pitch attitude until a speed of approximately stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitudes which result in intermittent activation of the stick shaker. As the airplane transits the windshear condition, the F/D programming reverses. As climb rate increases above approximately +600 fpm, the F/D commands pitch attitudes which result in acceleration back to the target speed. The A/P and F/D both operate in a similar manner during A/P or F/D go–around.

Approach and Landing
If windshear is encountered during an ILS approach, both the F/D and A/P attempt to hold the airplane on altitude, or on glideslope after glideslope capture, without regard to angle of attack or stick shaker limitations. Airspeed could decrease below stick shaker and into a stall if the pilot does not intervene by pushing the TO/GA switch or disconnecting the A/P and flying manually.

Last edited by ManaAdaSystem; 23rd Mar 2016 at 16:54.
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