Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 23rd Mar 2016, 21:26
  #561 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On SBY next to my phone
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think it's an illusion with the refraction of the clouds getting more sparse around the ceiling. It looks like there was no attempt to pull up before impact which is rather puzzling I must say.
TypeIV is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 21:27
  #562 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Zanzi's Bar
Age: 59
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RT (Russia Today) FZ fatigue reports

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slL2KMoM3p8

https://www.rt.com/news/336903-flydu...atigue-report/

This is what emi------tion and white slavery is all about.

EK, AY, QR next to come!

swish266 is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 22:04
  #563 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap.
Its endemic.Where have you been?
Pilots(old school) like Centaurus/411A(RIP) and myself have been saying this for years on this forum.It needs to be repeated again and again.And the problem is in the training dept,the board and the SOP clutter in the manuals.Ive flown all over in expat land and I have seen it all.Its terrifying.
Yes,fatigue is an issue but at the end of the day,you can refuse a flight if you're too tired.In most airlines anyway.I dont know zip about Flydubai.I have tended to avoid the ME like the plague.I never saw the appeal.
I dont know what happened in Rostov but I do know that we need to call a worldwide conference right now.It should be chaired by PILOTS and they should at the very minimum include reps of SOUTHWEST,QANTAS,and LUFTHANSA..Top of the agenda should be a refocus on airmanship and stick and rudder.Pilots must be on the board and they must be the right pilots,not yes men.Fatigue and rostering also to be addressed.

The travelling public deserve no less.Our profession likewise.
Rananim is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 22:53
  #564 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap.
AF447. Buffalo. And a few others.
Shaggy Sheep Driver is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 23:04
  #565 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Rananim,

In todays hiring needs,im afraid manual skills arent put in the forefront,possibly maybe only in china.
Considering the rostering,the legal late shift ending at 2am followed by 2 pm start is a killer in itself.
Computer is puking out a legal schedule,a continuous circadian rhythm buster,is unfortunately another accident to happen and not only in flydubai.
de facto is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 23:13
  #566 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Smaller Antipode
Age: 89
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 7 Posts
What is all this nonsense about people not being able to hand fly either with or without FD, or fly ILS. What utter crap.
....... have been saying this for years on this forum.It needs to be repeated again and again........
Rananim - well said.
ExSp33db1rd is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 23:17
  #567 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
[QUOTE]Yes,fatigue is an issue but at the end of the day,you can refuse a flight if you're too tired.... [Unless you work in the ME]

I dont know what happened in Rostov but I do know that we need to call a worldwide conference right now. It should be chaired by PILOTS and they should at the very minimum include reps of SOUTHWEST, QANTAS, and LUFTHANSA..Top of the agenda should be a refocus on airmanship and stick and rudder. Pilots must be on the board and they must be the right pilots, not yes men. Fatigue and rostering also to be addressed./QUOTE]

Perhaps we are our own worst enemies. Whilst i agree whole heartedly with everything you say, there are other pilots waiting in the wings to fill the vacancies as a result of resignations in airlines all over the world... And the ME airlines know this and use it to their recruitment advantage. But still, good people resign.

We don't know what happened here...yet. Knowing the region of origin of this operator, one suspects they will do everything to deflect the responsibility from themselves. They probably have several statements prepared based on the findings to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Probably the actions right now will be about damage limitation.

I guess one remedy is for every ME airline is to just divert to Tel Aviv when the **** hits the fan, because normal methods of communication are lost on this lot!!!
Done with the ME is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 23:22
  #568 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
EK, AY, QR next to come!
AY? Do you really mean Finnair?????
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2016, 23:46
  #569 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: down under
Posts: 462
Received 10 Likes on 5 Posts
Hi Rananim, why have you specifically mentioned Southwest, Qantas and Lufthansa?
cooperplace is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 00:07
  #570 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As a SLF and non aviator I find all the previous posts quite alarming.

There seems to be a discussion about what to do in a given set of circumstances. I would expect everybody to agree as to what the correct course of action should be. The fact that there are many differing opinions i find quite disconcerting.
We are discussing details about a system which may or may not do certain things in certain situations. Above that we have a procedure so we don't normally have to think about this when we fly.
Above it all we have a Boeing 737 which is a fairly basic aircraft. Provided we are properly trained and rested we can fly it without any of the systems we are discussing here. It will go where we point it.

As a SLF, is you first thought how rested the pilots for your flight will be, or how much the ticket will cost?
You should worry a lot more about how pilots are being used and abused, particulary in areas of the world where unions are not allowed.
Start in the ME forum and read what the FZ and EK pilots have been saying now for a very long time, and why you should not be surprised this sad accident happened.
You don't find anything about the other big UAE carrier, they took PPRuNe to court and stopped their pilots from posting anything here.
Just that should tell you a thing or two.

Enjoy your flight.
ManaAdaSystem is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 00:55
  #571 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
they took PPRuNe to court and stopped their pilots from posting anything here.
Well, not just their pilots actually. All PPRuNers are banned from mentioning them. But it doesn't matter because we all know who "they" are!
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 02:21
  #572 (permalink)  
PBY
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Around the corner
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Somebody can try to look at Aegean schedule. It is unbelievable, such a slavery in Europe.
PBY is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 06:22
  #573 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have looked at the low resolution flight radar data that is available. The only scenario that fits the information we currently have is flight control failure/malfunction, specifically the trim/horizontal stab. The go around profile and speeds are consistent with a normal go around - initial climb, then shallower climb to accelerate - the ground speed data is absolutely consistent on this. Then all of a sudden, at around a derived IAS of 220+ kts, a nose over and then an avg of 18500 fpm. Two pilots in a low authority gradient environment and neither one takes control? I can't see it. In my mind they were attempting to recover.

I see the comments regarding the parallels with the Kazan accident, but they already performed a safe go-around and they were already expecting to go around again. The disorientation is of course possible, but in my judgement so very unlikely.

As for fatigue. It may or may not be an issue in general terms. But this crew, from the limited info we have, they seemed to make sensible and logical decisions. They held because they had the endurance, weather was above minima with the worst condition forecast as a tempo, they clearly requested levels to keep them out of icing and they already made a successful go-around.

From what I can see, there is no evidence yet of a lack of SA or of poor judgement. No evidence of a stall and disorientation is so unlikely.
Sciolistes is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 07:10
  #574 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Age: 76
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am sure its been mentioned before, but in the 20000 hrs I did before retirement I would have diverted before the tragic end. These guys had plenty of fuel so after an initial approach and a consideration of the forecast they should have left.
Walnut is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 07:25
  #575 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 3,039
Received 17 Likes on 9 Posts
Just because you are saying it Walnut, does not make it right. He had the fuel to hold, and by doing so keep al his options open. Holding like this happens every day.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:59
  #576 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Above it all we have a Boeing 737 which is a fairly basic aircraft. Provided we are properly trained and rested we can fly it without any of the systems we are discussing here. It will go where we point it.
@ManaAda After 10 pages of Oh yes it would....Oh no it wouldn't TO/GA flying, doesn't quite sound like there is a general industry concensus on how to point it where you want it to go in WS/TS!
sAx_R54 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 09:26
  #577 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 3,039
Received 17 Likes on 9 Posts
The problem SaX, is that we now have a generation of pilots that have never had a person, be it pilot or FLT Eng teach them about their aircraft. There is now only CBT. The quicker you click the quicker you finish. Pass the tech quiz with no idea of what just happened.

From flight school to airliner. The poor buggas never get a chance to learn how to be a pilot.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 09:48
  #578 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From flight school to airliner. The poor buggas never get a chance to learn how to be a pilot.
@donpizmeov Perhaps its time to cram Captains and First Officers into fleets of the most common types piloted by the most experienced in the line with the flight deck screened as 'in flight entertainment', where they are taken through WS/TS and can visually see what buttons are pressed or more importantly not pressed! Perchance there would be some form of concensus on how tight buttocks were clenched or relaxed!
sAx_R54 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 10:07
  #579 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Antarctica
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The most sensible comment I have seen so far Sciolistes. The only thing I would add is the possibility of uncommanded thrust reverser deployment. Although I have no idea of NG inflight protections in this regard. I also agree that they were most likely fighting for control all the way to impact although at that altitude and decent angle, recovery was most likely impossible. Nevertheless, I would have expected to see the wings roll level (or at least start to). Something was stopping those guys from having any influence on the aircraft at all. TR deployment in flight is very rare these days so is probably unlikely but it doesn't sound like fatigue or bad airline management no matter how much it is discussed.

Last edited by Lord Farringdon; 24th Mar 2016 at 10:24.
Lord Farringdon is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2016, 10:10
  #580 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Uncommanded reversers in flight is remote...would happen only due to multiple systems failure.
de facto is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.