B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
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Reason of go around
Apparently they had a serious weather phenomena between 7000 ft and the ground. I would love to hear from the pilots of Aeroflot that tried the approach 3 times, and could not make a landing. what did they face during the approach.
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Silverstrata,
It is not poor understanding of the systems, it is poorly written manuals. When I can't find any information about how the altitude capture logic works when in WS, then I have to rely on my experience from the simulator. de facto says, since it is not written that the FD/AP will capture the altitude, it will not.
Why the AP have to disconnect when you do a single channel approach is a question I have yet to get an answer to. It's a stone age technology, and the reason for several near accidents. You can blame pilots handling skills, but I know what I would prefer when I am dead tired in crappy weather.
Another problem identified from this thread, is the poor understanding of systems and procedures by some pilots (presuming they fly) - not even understanding capture modes, for instance.
Why the AP have to disconnect when you do a single channel approach is a question I have yet to get an answer to. It's a stone age technology, and the reason for several near accidents. You can blame pilots handling skills, but I know what I would prefer when I am dead tired in crappy weather.
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My notes are from a major US airline and explain that there is a system difference between the FD guidance during a normal TOGA and during a TOGA in WS condition.
Your statement from the Fcom is typical of poorly written manuals...it states"on approach/landing on an ils ,the AP and FD will try to hold the pitch and speed" .,basic automatic work and thats on a level segment then,not really on an ils now,are we?
From my notes:
So please next time you fly a NPA and enter a WS,i hope youll press Toga anyways...
Your statement from the Fcom is typical of poorly written manuals...it states"on approach/landing on an ils ,the AP and FD will try to hold the pitch and speed" .,basic automatic work and thats on a level segment then,not really on an ils now,are we?
From my notes:
Approaches are generally made with the flight directors ON. When the flight director is ON, the command guidance is to maintain either vertical path or level flight. In either case, there is no windshear guidance. Even in windshear conditions, the F/D will command a return to vertical path up to the point of 25° pitch and reaching full stall conditions. To achieve windshear recovery enhancement flight guidance, the aircraft must be flown in the TOGA pitch mode.
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You are not required to press TOGA to get into WS mode. Only if you are on an ILS. This is from the FCOM. In reality it matters very little as we press TOGA as part of the manouver.
Windshear Escape Maneuver
Pilot Flying
Pilot Monitoring
MANUAL FLIGHT
• Disconnect autopilot.
• Press either TO/GA switch.
• Aggressively apply maximum*
thrust.
• Disconnect autothrottle.
• Simultaneously roll wings level and rotate toward an initial pitch attitude of 15 °.
• Retract speedbrakes.
• Follow flight director TO/GA guidance (if available).
• Verify maximum* thrust.
• Verify all required actions have been completed and call out any omissions.
AUTOMATIC FLIGHT
• Press either TO/GA switch**.
• Verify TO/GA mode annunciation. • Verify GA thrust.
• Retract speedbrakes.
• Monitor system performance***.
• Verify GA* thrust.
• Verify all required actions have been completed and call out any omissions.
MANUAL OR AUTOMATIC FLIGHT
• Do not change flap or gear configuration until windshear is no longer a factor.
• Monitor vertical speed and altitude.
• Do not attempt to regain lost
airspeed until windshear is no longer a factor.
• Monitor vertical speed and altitude.
• Call out any trend toward terrain contact, descending flight path, or significant airspeed changes.



Last edited by Avenger; 23rd Mar 2016 at 16:51.
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If windshear is encountered during F/D takeoff or go–around,
In this case surely toga toga are the active modes!
the F/D pitch command bar provides commands to maintain the target speed until vertical speed decreases to approximately +600 fpm. At this point, the F/D pitch bar commands a 15 degree nose–up pitch attitude. If vertical speed continues to decrease, the F/D continues to command a 15 degree pitch attitude until a speed of approximately stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitudes which result in intermittent activation of the stick shaker.
If fpm is the controlling input then capturing an altitude would reduce the v/s to zero. This would be below 600fpm so 15 degrees nose up would be commanded (if ws was still detected)
As the airplane transits the windshear condition
Ie the airplane is no longer in wind shear, all bets are now off and fd mode reverts to normal. If you were above commanded mcp altitude you would continue in toga toga until you made another selection. Below mcp alt then yes it would capture (if ws condition is left)
In any other mode below the reactive wind shear threshold, you need to activate toga by pushing the toga button. Otherwise the airplane tries to maintain the commands and uses thrust to the appropriate limit to recapture airspeed. If those modes were arm lvl change speed then..... Well that's a bad day below the reactive wind shear threshold.
Autopilot on a single approach disconnects because you have two ils receivers and one fmc I believe. Therefore the fd system is going from one system monitoring the master ils signal to one system monitoring one system, there is a break in the signal. On a dual channel approach below the self test, you have two systems monitoring two signals, there doesn't have to be a break to go to one system monitoring one fmc signal as something else takes the strain while it thinks.
It's all there it's just not written good
Cheers
In this case surely toga toga are the active modes!
the F/D pitch command bar provides commands to maintain the target speed until vertical speed decreases to approximately +600 fpm. At this point, the F/D pitch bar commands a 15 degree nose–up pitch attitude. If vertical speed continues to decrease, the F/D continues to command a 15 degree pitch attitude until a speed of approximately stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitudes which result in intermittent activation of the stick shaker.
If fpm is the controlling input then capturing an altitude would reduce the v/s to zero. This would be below 600fpm so 15 degrees nose up would be commanded (if ws was still detected)
As the airplane transits the windshear condition
Ie the airplane is no longer in wind shear, all bets are now off and fd mode reverts to normal. If you were above commanded mcp altitude you would continue in toga toga until you made another selection. Below mcp alt then yes it would capture (if ws condition is left)
In any other mode below the reactive wind shear threshold, you need to activate toga by pushing the toga button. Otherwise the airplane tries to maintain the commands and uses thrust to the appropriate limit to recapture airspeed. If those modes were arm lvl change speed then..... Well that's a bad day below the reactive wind shear threshold.
Autopilot on a single approach disconnects because you have two ils receivers and one fmc I believe. Therefore the fd system is going from one system monitoring the master ils signal to one system monitoring one system, there is a break in the signal. On a dual channel approach below the self test, you have two systems monitoring two signals, there doesn't have to be a break to go to one system monitoring one fmc signal as something else takes the strain while it thinks.
It's all there it's just not written good
Cheers
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Yes, de facto, it is SOP. It's a theoretical discussion, we both know what to do, and I suspect none of us are likely to push the nose down 15 degrees in a go around, FD or no FD.
This thread is being read by thousands, including Boeing reps, instructors and line pilots.
Regarding the issue of altitude capture logic in WS, there must be somebody out there that can put an end to this discussion. With facts dug up from the vaults of Boeing.
This thread is being read by thousands, including Boeing reps, instructors and line pilots.
Regarding the issue of altitude capture logic in WS, there must be somebody out there that can put an end to this discussion. With facts dug up from the vaults of Boeing.
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the airplane is no longer in wind shear, all bets are now off and fd mode reverts to normal. If you were above commanded mcp altitude you would continue in toga toga until you made another selection. Below mcp alt then yes it would capture (if ws condition is left)
but yeah i feel ya.Manada,
If the enhanced guidance in a windshear would guide you to alt acquire then there would be a major flaw in their guidance system not my notes....
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Manada,
If the enhanced guidance in a windshear would guide you to alt acquire then there would be a major flaw in their guidance system not my notes....
If the enhanced guidance in a windshear would guide you to alt acquire then there would be a major flaw in their guidance system not my notes....
A failure to set the correct MCP altitude, an overshoot and nose down in a regular go around could also explain this accident.
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Quite right old chap.
Here's an accurate one
"As the airplane transits the windshear condition, the F/D programming reverses. As climb rate increases above approximately +600 fpm, the F/D commands pitch attitudes which result in acceleration back to the target speed."
I think that means go on your way, you are free to select another mode and good luck, since a second reactive wind shear alert would be unlikely unless you exited it and levelled off quickly. But I can't be sure because I don't have a reference.
The big question then would be, if you encounter wind shear in level flight what would happen? Surely you can't climb away from the mcp altitude?!?!?
I suppose it does raise the point that I've been trying so hard to resist, I wouldn't even begin to relate it to this tragedy..... But in general in airlines these days, where is the airmanship? We all have the same words in the same books (or at least similar) but where we sit as individuals between what the book says and what the book means is diverse. I agree that the tech quiz puts undue emphasis in what the book says and in general, the understanding of the systems is left behind.... This may be because the cost of the instructor is too great to justify a classroom, but I suspect the disease has been set for so long that the general standard of instruction has become so poor that it is pretty much PowerPoint reading these days.
Anyway who am I to cast aspersions in any direction, I too am guilty of an occasional lapse!
Cheers
Nwihp
Here's an accurate one
"As the airplane transits the windshear condition, the F/D programming reverses. As climb rate increases above approximately +600 fpm, the F/D commands pitch attitudes which result in acceleration back to the target speed."
I think that means go on your way, you are free to select another mode and good luck, since a second reactive wind shear alert would be unlikely unless you exited it and levelled off quickly. But I can't be sure because I don't have a reference.
The big question then would be, if you encounter wind shear in level flight what would happen? Surely you can't climb away from the mcp altitude?!?!?
I suppose it does raise the point that I've been trying so hard to resist, I wouldn't even begin to relate it to this tragedy..... But in general in airlines these days, where is the airmanship? We all have the same words in the same books (or at least similar) but where we sit as individuals between what the book says and what the book means is diverse. I agree that the tech quiz puts undue emphasis in what the book says and in general, the understanding of the systems is left behind.... This may be because the cost of the instructor is too great to justify a classroom, but I suspect the disease has been set for so long that the general standard of instruction has become so poor that it is pretty much PowerPoint reading these days.
Anyway who am I to cast aspersions in any direction, I too am guilty of an occasional lapse!
Cheers
Nwihp
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With respect to comments from FZ Pilots we as outsiders cannot comment on the F/O's roster and if it is fatiguing as the roster pre view is so small. Any sleep scientist commenting here wont mention the F word they will mention the S word = sleepiness = the need to sleep. I hope the Investigators talk to his wife and find out what he did pre flight. Knowing many Spanish Pilots they have a culture of being able to take afternoon naps so he may have been in a good position when reporting.
On hopes that FZ would have risk assessed the possibility of holding for 2 hours going round in circles trying to land at an airport in the middle of no-where at night. One can only suspect neither Pilot would have been able to nap.........
Lastly I hope Fly Dubai now look after the Cockpit and cabin crew families, keep paying their wages, keep them housed etc. If they try blame the crew without recognising their own errors and or the F or S word it will be a cover up for sure.
May they Rest in Peace
On hopes that FZ would have risk assessed the possibility of holding for 2 hours going round in circles trying to land at an airport in the middle of no-where at night. One can only suspect neither Pilot would have been able to nap.........
Lastly I hope Fly Dubai now look after the Cockpit and cabin crew families, keep paying their wages, keep them housed etc. If they try blame the crew without recognising their own errors and or the F or S word it will be a cover up for sure.
May they Rest in Peace
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There is already a fairly public "paper trail" of fatigue reports on the RT link. Of course, with FlyDubai being Govt owned that will probably just "evaporate". Nonetheless, a decent solicitor could make a very big case against them if someone engaged him/her. I won't speculate on the cause ( I have flown 737 long enough to know "her" foibles & to understand my own human weaknesses when dealing with them) but, a decent legal honcho should assuredly destroy the little scrotes who run the flt ops Dept with no regard for the health/state of alertness of their employees having ignored multiple fatigue reports over the years
This is how FRM works so in this respect was a positive report
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Sorry if this is old news but I just saw a tweet from the FR24 guys saying: Flightradar24 data for #FZ981, including a decoded single-receiver extended data set.
Link is: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/f...ai-flight-981/
Not sure whether this is more complete data than what has already been discussed here or not.
Link is: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/f...ai-flight-981/
Not sure whether this is more complete data than what has already been discussed here or not.
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As a SLF and non aviator I find all the previous posts quite alarming.
There seems to be a discussion about what to do in a given set of circumstances. I would expect everybody to agree as to what the correct course of action should be. The fact that there are many differing opinions i find quite disconcerting.
There seems to be a discussion about what to do in a given set of circumstances. I would expect everybody to agree as to what the correct course of action should be. The fact that there are many differing opinions i find quite disconcerting.
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This profession has been diminished to a point that any idiot with 5 neurons a bit of guts and no real understanding of life or self respect can seat in command to the joy of greedy managers that can't wait to find more frustrated morons. Let's regulate again.
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@bar none: I don't quite share your disconcertment. Airplanes are very complicated working environments and often there is more than one way that will lead to a safe outcome of a potentially dangerous situation.
Also procedures are being amended and systems improved all the time based on occurences or accidents. A discussion of the same is always part of that process.
I don't understand, why, while levelling off, excessive down force was applied, causing the accidents mentioned earlier. When you retard the thrust levers, the pitch up moment decreases right away, so that little down force needs to be applied.
Also procedures are being amended and systems improved all the time based on occurences or accidents. A discussion of the same is always part of that process.
I don't understand, why, while levelling off, excessive down force was applied, causing the accidents mentioned earlier. When you retard the thrust levers, the pitch up moment decreases right away, so that little down force needs to be applied.
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Bears many similarities to Tatarstan 363, Kazan crash of November 2013.
Even the video footage looks uncannily similar, see link below.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1384773205Final report was published in December last year. It is in Russian. Does any one have an English version.
Even the video footage looks uncannily similar, see link below.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1384773205Final report was published in December last year. It is in Russian. Does any one have an English version.
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Sadly, this accident could have been avoided and should have been. It will now take the deaths of a number of people (And RTs report) to finally draw attention to a serious issue that has gone largely ignored for some time.
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Excessive climb rate
Data show excessive climb rate of 6000 ft/min within 33 seconds after go around from 1125 ft MSL, thereafter accelerating with rates between 2000 and 4000 ft/min for another 20 seconds, before suddenly dropping to ground from 3600 ft within 11 seconds.
First go around started at 1350 ft MSL, was smooth with max. climb rate of 2500 ft/min and acceleration segment.
First go around started at 1350 ft MSL, was smooth with max. climb rate of 2500 ft/min and acceleration segment.
Info on video
This video link was posted earlier.
Is it just me, or does the aircraft seem level/normal coming out of the overcast, then take a sharp break to the ground?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJ9osyLRqQ
Is it just me, or does the aircraft seem level/normal coming out of the overcast, then take a sharp break to the ground?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJ9osyLRqQ