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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 20th Mar 2017, 20:53
  #1521 (permalink)  
 
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Didn't know this was possible:
Page 6: "automatic retraction of flaps from 15° to 10° at a speed of over 200 knots" ... "decrease in engine thrust within 3 seconds resulted in decreasing speed and flaps extension to 15°".. "crew inputs to regain maximum takeoff/go- around thrust led to speed increase and reiterated automatic flaps retraction to 10°"
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 22:56
  #1522 (permalink)  
 
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Flap overspeed protection at work?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:24
  #1523 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for you response in August, Kulverstukas

From the report:

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Old 21st Mar 2017, 07:09
  #1524 (permalink)  
 
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Skijob, SP versions have flap load relief from Flap 10 to 40..
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 13:22
  #1525 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Super VC-10
Wasn't it published in 2016?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 13:26
  #1526 (permalink)  
 
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12 seconds of trim with the flaps extended takes you to full nose down, or very close to it.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 13:58
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Originally Posted by Kulverstukas
Wasn't it published in 2016?
Yes, little has changed since April 2016, but someone has to give the hamster wheel a push

MAK are still working on final report ...

The Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) - official website
20 march 2017

...
The Investigation team has collected all necessary factual information and is currently completing its detailed analysis with participation of experts of the involved States in order to develop a draft Final Report.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 21:04
  #1528 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avenger
Skijob, SP versions have flap load relief from Flap 10 to 40..
Unaware of that, thanks for info!
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 23:38
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So, 2 possibilities. Total & utter crew incompetence, which we can mitigate by introducing illusions involving the inner ear/fatigue/whatever . . . or, Boeing are very glad to adopt that , thanks very much. Frankly, no matter how tired/disorientated, I find it difficult to imagine any reasonably experienced crew member holding forward Stab-trim input for 12 sec, but, I haven't flown a FlyDubai roster. . . . . . .
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 01:11
  #1530 (permalink)  
 
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which we can mitigate by introducing illusions involving the inner ear/fatigue/whatever
Personal opinion only; but I wish I had a dollar for every time I see speculation that sensory illusions cannot be counted out as a contributory cause of IMC crashes. In most of the IMC/night accidents one reads about in accident reports, it seems a good bet that questionable basic instrument flying skills has a lot to do with these sort of prangs.

Re the Fly Dubai accident, I have seen pilots occasionally "freeze" on the 737 stab trim button during simulator training where a low altitude stall recovery was attempted while replicating the Turkish Airlines Amsterdam crash.

That was where the autothrottles went to idle during an auto-coupled ILS and the autopilot tried to fly the ILS glide slope and the stab trim had automatically wound slowly back to almost full aft by the time the aircraft stalled.

In this case, on the application of GA thrust and subsequent very strong pitch up (combination of high thrust and lots of back stab trim) strong forward elevator accompanied by forward stab trim action is required by the pilot to avoid an unusual attitude problem.

It is then we occasionally observe the pilot inadvertently keeping his thumb pressed hard on the stab trim button and in the heat of the moment forget to stop trimming. The usual result is the climb turns into a bunt and steep dive with no hope of recovery at that low altitude.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 16:46
  #1531 (permalink)  

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but, I haven't flown a FlyDubai roster. . . . . . .
I have.

I have had rosters very similar to the poor FO who died at Rostov, and on one flight was so tired I managed to forget the phonetic alphabet and even struggled to read our callsign back to ATC. Until you have experienced that level of fatigue, you cannot appreciate just how much it drains your capacity - and how reliant you are on the person sat next to you.

Many of us felt it was only a matter of time. Just put two equally fatigued pilots together in the middle of the night, throw in some bad weather and/or non normals and you're rolling the dice. It could have been me on that flight, or any of my mates. My only surprise was that it happened at Rostov - I can think of at least half a dozen places on the FZ network more likely to witness a smoking hole.

There but for the grace of God.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 19:01
  #1532 (permalink)  
 
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G60: Am I forgetting, but were they rostered for an out & back? Your suggesting they so were knackered for this approach, perhaps, but they still had the return sector to complete? Is that correct?
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 19:21
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I have been fatigued and it actually doesn't matter what stage of an individual duty you are at, it could be on the taxi out of the first sector at 8am and you can still be mentally ill equiped for operating. A duty can appear to be a good one on paper and you are not even capable of recovering well enough to do it. Eg you can have a day off with 10 hours sleep and not be sharp enough to operate a 10am sign on sector.
In my case it built up over a twelve month period and was due to a combination of household circumstances ( new baby, two bedroom apartment, no sound proofing) and poor rostering ( lates into earlies and back again every week perpetually). One night sleep didn't even put a dent in it. It took at least six months of getting proper uninterrupted sleep before my usual mental processing capabilities returned. As an aside, so did my positive outlook and ability to remember not only what day of the week it was but what we had planned on that day.
For me it was the circadian disruption that got me more than the lack of total sleep hours, but everyone is different.
The rosters that you flew GSXTY should be illegal and the head of FlyD should have to defend his/her oversite of the rosters produced leading up to the crash ( I won't say accident).
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 14:56
  #1534 (permalink)  

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Rat 5

It was an out and back 2 sector duty.

framer

An excellent description of fatigue. It can be insidious and creep up on you without you even realizing. Regarding accountability, fatiguing rostering practices have been a fact of life at FZ for years. In my experience, with the honourable exception of the safety department, management were utterly indifferent to the problem. In the months leading up to the crash, there were around 20 fatigue-related ASR's per month, and the response was usually along the lines of "it's legal captain" or "that's how it is, if you don't like it you can leave." Many did.

Bearing in mind that Flydubai's chairman is also president of the Dubai CAA, and given the local culture where bad / embarrassing / inconvenient news is - how can I put it - 'discouraged,' I seriously doubt that anyone senior in the company will ever be held accountable.

A final report blaming pilot error would suit certain people very nicely.
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Old 25th Mar 2017, 13:06
  #1535 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer
The rosters that you flew GSXTY should be illegal and the head of FlyD should have to defend his/her oversite of the rosters produced leading up to the crash ( I won't say accident).
The flaw in the cunning plan there is that the then Chief Pilot at FZ now unbelievably promoted to DFO. Gave more of a flying monkeys as to the contents of his hankie the last time he blew his nose than about fatigue, hull losses and you or anyone else.

To aid that there is no effective or real oversight, he is literally a law unto himself and the people allegedly accountable for oversight of him and the whole shebang own the airline!

The only thing that can happen is that pilots simply do what he says in his daily mantra. "if you don't like it, leave!" When they have no pilots or no pax the problem ends. Until then the dice are rolled at least 54 times a day and often two or three times that! Sadly the only inevitability here is when the next one will be.

So unnecessary and so sad. The blind being led by the blind being overseen by the greedy and uncaring for the aloof. What a receipe!
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Old 25th Mar 2017, 16:31
  #1536 (permalink)  
 
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So when are the pilots who have gajones (there must be enough of them to affect the roster) going to make a very public block protest and leave a/c on the ground? Are you suggesting that all the pilots are willing to Ko-tow. I know it's easier said than done, but why risk your health when there is a solution via resistance on safety grounds. Even in Dubai they can't ignore that argument if the voice is full & loud. Or is that all too wishful thinking?
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Old 25th Mar 2017, 18:33
  #1537 (permalink)  
 
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I think it will be within the next couple of years. Many pilots are making a fuss about it right now. My outfit just hired an office person full time to deal with the reporting and management of fatigue, we have ten aircraft.
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Old 25th Mar 2017, 19:59
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There are several good reasons, why a large number of people chose to fly a 737 in the Sandpit rather than in their home countries/continents. Combine that with the fact organised labour and strikes are illegal in the UAE, and you've handed management a set of powerful tools with which to keep the workers in check.

Asking the crew to collectively stand up against the practices in e.g. FZ is therefore not only unreasonable, it would also be illegal and could have dire consequences for those involved.

Pilots, when not strongly organised in a union, have an exceedingly poor track record of forming ranks to improve their collective situation. To put it bluntly, a group of pilots are not a team; they are a collection of individual PLCs, acting only in what they believe is in their own self interest.
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Old 5th Aug 2017, 15:11
  #1539 (permalink)  
 
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So Fatigue has not been mentioned in the report, wonder why?

Convenient for airlines, the dead can't defend themselves, and the companies can continue their normal operations, as their operations are legal, when will somebody stand up for fatigue in the business, or do we need many more "Pilot Error" crashes before somebody will finally wake up.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 19:28
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Final report released today.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKBN1Y01QD

I can’t find a link to the report though.

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