B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
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What about if the wing never stalled. After watching the video showing the GA I am interested in the stabilizer , what happened to it in the GA, it was loaded with ice or clean ? It was the stab that stalled ? May be there is something that we dont know about this plane, even after millons of hours.
By the way I fly NG everyday
By the way I fly NG everyday
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Another cctv of FZ981. From the video, it seems that it took only about a minute after the go-around when the crash occurs.
https://youtu.be/8BZbQzFuj9M
https://youtu.be/8BZbQzFuj9M
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I know one thing that would make a light 737 go up like a rocket, and make it hard to control; A WS escape manouver with throttles to the walls.
That is how we train it in the simulator. We also normally set the MCP altitude up (just spin the wheel) to avoid altitude capture and confusing FD commands.
IF you get altitude capture and try to follow the FD commands, now commanding nose down with engines producing (27K ?) max thrust, things could go pear shaped really fast.
6 hours into this flight, at night, bad weather, tired, a number of holes are lined up.
For those European pilots who claim their rosters are just as bad. Do you routinely fly night turn arounds? Four hour flights into the night, then back again? 8 days off in a month? Switch between day and night duty?
That is how we train it in the simulator. We also normally set the MCP altitude up (just spin the wheel) to avoid altitude capture and confusing FD commands.
IF you get altitude capture and try to follow the FD commands, now commanding nose down with engines producing (27K ?) max thrust, things could go pear shaped really fast.
6 hours into this flight, at night, bad weather, tired, a number of holes are lined up.
For those European pilots who claim their rosters are just as bad. Do you routinely fly night turn arounds? Four hour flights into the night, then back again? 8 days off in a month? Switch between day and night duty?
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Try Turkish Airlines 100/110 hours roster with multiple consecutive night duties ending early morning followed by 0100/0300 AM starts for 4/5 hours night turns to Iran Iraq followed by early morning with no whatsoever consideration for circadian rhythm..8 days off often followed by 0015 starts absolutely crazy.. This profession as become a business for masochist with no self respect trading their health and longevity for a little of cash.
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A possible scenario: fatigue induced error, engine anti ice left off... engine failure...loss of control...or again..un commanded rudder. I have seen all post critical of 737 being removed... Boeing is watching..
Its great to know you would not bust FTLs (you legend). There is nothing saying this FO did either. Unless you have facts stop trying to degrade him.
I can see how my post could be read that I was degrading the First Officer but my intention was not that. The opposite is true but the way I phrased it was not clear.
I was trying to make a comment on FTL's , not on the First Officer.
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AFS Operation in Windshear General
Automatic Flight Chapter : 12-4 System Description Section : 20
The autopilot and flight director provide positive corrective action to counteract most windshears. The autothrottle system also aids in windshear recovery by providing quick response to any increase or decrease in speed. The commanded levels of power may be beyond what the average pilot considers necessary but, in fact, are required by the situation.
Takeoff or Go–Around
If windshear is encountered during F/D takeoff or go–around, the F/D pitch command bar provides commands to maintain the target speed until vertical speed decreases to approximately +600 fpm. At this point, the F/D pitch bar commands a 15 degree nose–up pitch attitude. If vertical speed continues to decrease, the F/D continues to command a 15 degree pitch attitude until a speed of approximately stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitudes which result in intermittent activation of the stick shaker. As the airplane transits the windshear condition, the F/D programming reverses. As climb rate increases above approximately +600 fpm, the F/D commands pitch attitudes which result in
acceleration back to the target speed. The A/P and F/D both operate in a similar manner during A/P or F/D go–around.
Approach and Landing
If windshear is encountered during an ILS approach, both the F/D and A/P attempt to hold the airplane on altitude, or on glideslope after glideslope capture, without regard to angle of attack or stick shaker limitations. Airspeed could decrease below stick shaker and into a stall if the pilot does not intervene by pushing the TO/GA switch or disconnecting the A/P and flying manually.
WARNING!
Although the F/D, A/P and A/T may be performing as previously described, severe windshear may exceed the performance capability of the system and/or the airplane. In this situation, the flight crew must, if necessary to avoid ground contact, be prepared to disconnect the autothrottle, advance thrust levers to the forward stop, disconnect the autopilot and manually fly the airplane.
There is no need to "spin up " MCP altitudes, just follow the FD commands if "within the aircraft capability"..of course, the aircraft capability and Pilot capability are different matters...
It looks possible this aircraft may have entered CB clouds in the GA..control problems and stalled..
Automatic Flight Chapter : 12-4 System Description Section : 20
The autopilot and flight director provide positive corrective action to counteract most windshears. The autothrottle system also aids in windshear recovery by providing quick response to any increase or decrease in speed. The commanded levels of power may be beyond what the average pilot considers necessary but, in fact, are required by the situation.
Takeoff or Go–Around
If windshear is encountered during F/D takeoff or go–around, the F/D pitch command bar provides commands to maintain the target speed until vertical speed decreases to approximately +600 fpm. At this point, the F/D pitch bar commands a 15 degree nose–up pitch attitude. If vertical speed continues to decrease, the F/D continues to command a 15 degree pitch attitude until a speed of approximately stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitudes which result in intermittent activation of the stick shaker. As the airplane transits the windshear condition, the F/D programming reverses. As climb rate increases above approximately +600 fpm, the F/D commands pitch attitudes which result in
acceleration back to the target speed. The A/P and F/D both operate in a similar manner during A/P or F/D go–around.
Approach and Landing
If windshear is encountered during an ILS approach, both the F/D and A/P attempt to hold the airplane on altitude, or on glideslope after glideslope capture, without regard to angle of attack or stick shaker limitations. Airspeed could decrease below stick shaker and into a stall if the pilot does not intervene by pushing the TO/GA switch or disconnecting the A/P and flying manually.
WARNING!
Although the F/D, A/P and A/T may be performing as previously described, severe windshear may exceed the performance capability of the system and/or the airplane. In this situation, the flight crew must, if necessary to avoid ground contact, be prepared to disconnect the autothrottle, advance thrust levers to the forward stop, disconnect the autopilot and manually fly the airplane.
There is no need to "spin up " MCP altitudes, just follow the FD commands if "within the aircraft capability"..of course, the aircraft capability and Pilot capability are different matters...
It looks possible this aircraft may have entered CB clouds in the GA..control problems and stalled..
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If you have 3000 ft in the MCP window and fly a WS escape the flight directors will capture that altitude. The system will not disregard the altitude.
TS has been discussed before. Not likely according to the weather experts.
Against the WS scenario is the radio handover that was pretty normal.
TS has been discussed before. Not likely according to the weather experts.
Against the WS scenario is the radio handover that was pretty normal.
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Try Turkish Airlines 100/110 hours roster with multiple consecutive night duties ending early morning followed by 0100/0300 AM starts for 4/5 hours night turns to Iran Iraq followed by early morning with no whatsoever consideration for circadian rhythm..8 days off often followed by 0015 starts absolutely crazy.. This profession as become a business for masochist with no self respect trading their health and longevity for a little of cash.
They are a sort of European airline.
When it comes to comparing rosters, I am sure if I post a roster with 5 nights, one day off, five nights, some pilot would immediately claim their roster is worse.
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Operative weather radar?strange pilot is asking how the weather is outside the tower's window..
Regardless of whether there were actual large CB or TS, all the clues were there...
High pitch following a go around is not unheard of,,,cobra maneuver as i was told..40 deg+ pitch...unless one in front is switched on,it can obvioulsy go bad very quick.
Some mentioned the facilities of airport or lack of, could have been a factor.
When a landing is not possible at destination an alternate airport is normally chosen based on a few factors..weather,fuel,performance restrictions,airport familiarity,then maintenance facilty if required and pax comfort,cost related.
Regardless of whether there were actual large CB or TS, all the clues were there...
High pitch following a go around is not unheard of,,,cobra maneuver as i was told..40 deg+ pitch...unless one in front is switched on,it can obvioulsy go bad very quick.
Some mentioned the facilities of airport or lack of, could have been a factor.
When a landing is not possible at destination an alternate airport is normally chosen based on a few factors..weather,fuel,performance restrictions,airport familiarity,then maintenance facilty if required and pax comfort,cost related.
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Manada,
For crying out loud...if you are a pilot,maybe its time you review your basic maneuvers
Sad really,and you work for an airline?
If you have 3000 ft in the MCP window and fly a WS escape the flight directors will capture that altitude. The system will not disregard the altitude.
That is how we train it in the simulator. We also normally set the MCP altitude up (just spin the wheel) to avoid altitude capture and confusing FD commands.
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I can only speak for myself, but I have on a number of occasions done exactly what he did. Asked the tower guys how it looks from their station. They have a very good view all around, and first class knowledge of the local conditions.
I have also called the tower a number of times before deparure to get a fresh update of conditions. Obviously I don't call LHR tower to ask them, but the smaller airports are just happy to help.
Airmanship and CRM in practice. Use all available means.
I have also called the tower a number of times before deparure to get a fresh update of conditions. Obviously I don't call LHR tower to ask them, but the smaller airports are just happy to help.
Airmanship and CRM in practice. Use all available means.
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Quote:
Judging by the various comments in this thread, it makes me wonder if airlines permit their crews to fly an ILS manually, anymore? Is it that dangerous to do so? Or is that for CAVOK approaches only?
Yes,thanks god.
I do it each day i fly to base,about 15/20 mins of manual,no FD...done a go around raw data at 50 feet due to a blocked runway,yeah an extra 10-15 of manual.
We not only do it but enjoy it but yes some who dont do it may find it stressful rather than enjoyable.
De Facto does manual flying with no FDs. He is one of the few these days, who can do it. Only few airline captains today are confident enough to fly without FDs or are able to "see through the FDs. There is a real jungle out there.
As the Airbus training " airbus philosophy" used to say: Captain does not need to be a good pilot, he needs to be a good manager. Thankfully they stopped saying that after AF447. Most captains cannot fly basic ILS without FDs even when they are fresh. Now imagine adding fatigue to it. It is a very sad state of the industry. But if any demanding flying need to be done close to the ground, for example a go around with an early turn, the outcome will be shaky even with the well rested majority of captains. Many of you guys who read this post, you know your limits and your low level of flying skills. Yes you are very afraid of simulator checks. But I am not blaming you. I am blaming the management. Because I know that if you were exposed to the right kind of training, you would improve very quickly. But the ambitious guys in the training management are most of the time not real instructors. Yes, legally they are instructors. But airline instructor gets only few days of CRM teaching techniques, but was never trained on how to teach flying. And the airlines are full of non-instructors. Flying by hand is considered dangerous. And rightly so. Because if the pilots lost their basic skill, it is dangerous. But if you know how to fly, it is easy. Anytime lack of flying skill is discussed in airlines, most people are quiet. These days it is so normal, not having a basic flying skills, if you are an airline captain. And airlines do not teach it. They prefer to mindlessly punish people for infractions on FDRs. Simulators are used for teacing complicated procedures, which could be discussed in a classroom and valuable sim time, which could give guys flying skill confidence backback is waisted in a freeze mode. There must be a fresh air on this. FAA is saying, lack of flying skills is an endemic. but the guys, who can really teach it are not welcome in training departments. They could make the other guys look bad. I know, most pilots who are non-pilots will not believe this post. I have never believed that airlines could be in such a state. Having said that, there are few exceptions, where the training is good. But most of the captains, who are regularly flying passengers these days do not have the private pilot basic flying skills! That could be easily fixed in the sim and on the line. Guys could have confidence back quick. But IT IS NOT BEING DONE! It is a blind, leading the blind. good trainers are few or are prevented from training others.
Judging by the various comments in this thread, it makes me wonder if airlines permit their crews to fly an ILS manually, anymore? Is it that dangerous to do so? Or is that for CAVOK approaches only?
Yes,thanks god.
I do it each day i fly to base,about 15/20 mins of manual,no FD...done a go around raw data at 50 feet due to a blocked runway,yeah an extra 10-15 of manual.
We not only do it but enjoy it but yes some who dont do it may find it stressful rather than enjoyable.
De Facto does manual flying with no FDs. He is one of the few these days, who can do it. Only few airline captains today are confident enough to fly without FDs or are able to "see through the FDs. There is a real jungle out there.
As the Airbus training " airbus philosophy" used to say: Captain does not need to be a good pilot, he needs to be a good manager. Thankfully they stopped saying that after AF447. Most captains cannot fly basic ILS without FDs even when they are fresh. Now imagine adding fatigue to it. It is a very sad state of the industry. But if any demanding flying need to be done close to the ground, for example a go around with an early turn, the outcome will be shaky even with the well rested majority of captains. Many of you guys who read this post, you know your limits and your low level of flying skills. Yes you are very afraid of simulator checks. But I am not blaming you. I am blaming the management. Because I know that if you were exposed to the right kind of training, you would improve very quickly. But the ambitious guys in the training management are most of the time not real instructors. Yes, legally they are instructors. But airline instructor gets only few days of CRM teaching techniques, but was never trained on how to teach flying. And the airlines are full of non-instructors. Flying by hand is considered dangerous. And rightly so. Because if the pilots lost their basic skill, it is dangerous. But if you know how to fly, it is easy. Anytime lack of flying skill is discussed in airlines, most people are quiet. These days it is so normal, not having a basic flying skills, if you are an airline captain. And airlines do not teach it. They prefer to mindlessly punish people for infractions on FDRs. Simulators are used for teacing complicated procedures, which could be discussed in a classroom and valuable sim time, which could give guys flying skill confidence backback is waisted in a freeze mode. There must be a fresh air on this. FAA is saying, lack of flying skills is an endemic. but the guys, who can really teach it are not welcome in training departments. They could make the other guys look bad. I know, most pilots who are non-pilots will not believe this post. I have never believed that airlines could be in such a state. Having said that, there are few exceptions, where the training is good. But most of the captains, who are regularly flying passengers these days do not have the private pilot basic flying skills! That could be easily fixed in the sim and on the line. Guys could have confidence back quick. But IT IS NOT BEING DONE! It is a blind, leading the blind. good trainers are few or are prevented from training others.
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Enlighten me, de facto.
In the simulator we do the worse case CB WS. You will crash if you don't use throttle to the walls and aggressively follow the FD (or momentary stick shaker if FD is not available).
I am not saying I will follow the FD commands in a level off, but the system will capture the altitude.
Are you saying this is not correct?
I have had reactive WS three time in real life. Non of them required max thrust.
In the simulator we do the worse case CB WS. You will crash if you don't use throttle to the walls and aggressively follow the FD (or momentary stick shaker if FD is not available).
I am not saying I will follow the FD commands in a level off, but the system will capture the altitude.
Are you saying this is not correct?
I have had reactive WS three time in real life. Non of them required max thrust.
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MANADA,
NOT CORRECT.
Certainly,
During a WS,you need to press a TOGA switch,in manual or automated thrust...for a reason..
Please review your basic WS escape maneuver,,,,in your aircraft QRH,gladly provided by boeing to review such if flying near or close possible windshear area.
PBY,
Nothing to do with raw data flying.
Pressing TOGA as laid down in boeing WS escape maneuver,will provide FD guidance to initial 15 deg,no guidance to MCP altitude at all.
NOT CORRECT.
Enlighten me, de facto.
During a WS,you need to press a TOGA switch,in manual or automated thrust...for a reason..
Please review your basic WS escape maneuver,,,,in your aircraft QRH,gladly provided by boeing to review such if flying near or close possible windshear area.
PBY,
Nothing to do with raw data flying.
Pressing TOGA as laid down in boeing WS escape maneuver,will provide FD guidance to initial 15 deg,no guidance to MCP altitude at all.
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Yes, you press TOGA to get WS guidance, but it will not override the altitude set in the FMC.
At least it does not in our simulator. I have seen this a number of times.
I fail to see what this has to do with my basic manouvering skills?
I would be very happy if you could show me where it says that altitude capture is overridden by TOGA in a WS.
BUT, however nice it is to discuss the finer points of automation and flying skills here, these two guys got something thrown at them after six hours of flying, tired and in darkness, that confused them to so much that they lost control of the aircraft and crashed.
What? I can't wait to find out. I fly the NG, so I need to know.
At least it does not in our simulator. I have seen this a number of times.
I fail to see what this has to do with my basic manouvering skills?
I would be very happy if you could show me where it says that altitude capture is overridden by TOGA in a WS.
BUT, however nice it is to discuss the finer points of automation and flying skills here, these two guys got something thrown at them after six hours of flying, tired and in darkness, that confused them to so much that they lost control of the aircraft and crashed.
What? I can't wait to find out. I fly the NG, so I need to know.
