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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 25th Mar 2016, 22:43
  #701 (permalink)  
 
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It might be implying that he mistook the VHF transmit for the trim switch.Instead of transmitting he trims down.The transmit and trim down are directly opposite each other on the stick.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 22:46
  #702 (permalink)  
 
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Or left side for captain.


Confusion on the yoke switch can happen in the heat of battle: http://youtu.be/F9LruOa-hzA
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 22:52
  #703 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 737er
Thought of that too spitfire. I wonder if the stab trim brake system prevented them from manually trimming up with the yoke that far back.
Only if the control column us moved in opposition to the trim as per your quotes.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:10
  #704 (permalink)  
 
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Preemo

As a guess, the 5,000 hour minimum for captain may mean for a direct hire. Since he was there as an F/O, he was probably upgraded sooner based on seniority and/or performance.

Regards.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:17
  #705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Preemo
According to Wikipedia the Captain has 5,965 hours and became captain 18 months ago. The minimum hours to be a Captain at FlyDubai is 5,000 hours. Assuming Wikipedia is correct (they quote several sources including NY Times) and the Captain was promoted as soon as he hit 5,000 hours, he averaged 13hrs flying a week over the 18 months. I guess there must be work hours spent around those flying hours, but even 26 hours a week does not strike me (self loading cargo) as being particularly demanding. What am I missing ?
you're missing that the 5.000 hours are the min. for a DEC (direct entry captain). The Captain was with FZ already as an F/O so his promotion was based on seniority/performance and not on the min. hours.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:24
  #706 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 737er View Post
Thought of that too spitfire. I wonder if the stab trim brake system prevented them from manually trimming up with the yoke that far back.
Only if the control column us moved in opposition to the trim as per your quotes.
You are correct sir.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:37
  #707 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever stab problems one can think of (technical, inputs), this alone seems not to explain the notable bank angle inferred from CCTV recordings.

Could someone be conceivably as confident, at ~3'500 AGL, as to try to break out of whatever perceived nose-high attitude threat, by positively lowering a wing?

(Indeed a silly attempt to conjecture a subject to the alleged "don't worry" <> "don't do this", in absence of transcript authenticity confirmation, FDR, and ECAM/EICAS picture)
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:50
  #708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KKN_
Whatever stab problems one can think of (technical, inputs), this alone seems not to explain the notable bank angle inferred from CCTV recordings.
The FR24 data does not support the hypothesis that the GA involved any significant bank angle.
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Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:51
  #709 (permalink)  
 
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CVR parts

I'm of the mind when he said "don't do this" he may have been talking to the aircraft itself not to the other pilot.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 00:27
  #710 (permalink)  
 
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The FR24 data does not support the hypothesis that the GA involved any significant bank angle.

=============

But the video footage does. The video at post #298 shows 2 landing lights in view of the ground camera situated at right angle to the descent path. It looks like a high bank angle as the a/c impacted
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 01:18
  #711 (permalink)  
 
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"scissors" = "shear", no?

Help from our Russian friends would be useful.

Last edited by Leightman 957; 26th Mar 2016 at 01:21. Reason: Help from.....
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 01:35
  #712 (permalink)  
 
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"scissors" = "shear", no?

Help from our Russian friends would be useful.
The original article says "atmospheric scissors" literally and doesn't make much sense in my mother tongue just as well - well, other than the journalist didn't have any idea of what she or he was talking about and just made up a lot of things.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 01:41
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Media tries to look technical or their source of "leak" is not easy for them to understand :o. "Atmosphernye nozhnitsy" - literally - "atmospheric scissors" means media heard of the notion IN ENGLISH. They were told "wind shear". Translated by google or with a help of an English-Russian dictionary. Obtained a literal translation : "Atmospheric scissors" - made Russian audience learn of a new thing, previously un-heard of :o.
Some scissors. In the air. ??? To me, a Russian, it signals that the media heard it in English.
Dictionary says English shear has two meanings (as minimum) - "large scissors" and "shift". Journalists opted for "large scissors".


No 2 is "knuppel". General public in Russia never heard about any knuppels and is same impressed with them so scary unknown things as you. might be.

Googling in Russian shows knuppels are German, German term, invented to operate some rocket back in 1943. Then it tells that Russian engineers back in the 20th century used to use this German term to name those. rolling balls' things. Target tracking balls. Like in a computer mouse. Russian engineers preferred the German word knuppel to own term "sharovy manipuliator". In English the German knuppel looks like a thing inside a computer mouse.
It better corresponds to the joystick in airplanes than to a "button" in the airplanes.


There will certainly be further confusion as one media re-tells the news to another media, like in a game "broken telephone" as the word "knuppel" suspiciously sounds like Russian word "knopka"/button. When I heard knuppel first, I thought it' s a diminitive suffix added to the word "button".
But it's not. It's a computer mouse round ball whatever it corresponds to in a modern airplane.

Last edited by Alice025; 26th Mar 2016 at 02:15.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 01:50
  #714 (permalink)  
 
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Knüppel

In an aviation context the German word 'Knüppel' short for 'Steuerknüppel' means control stick or in a wider sense yoke.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 02:07
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Pictures of different "knuppels" in Russian technicians' understanding are here.


IT ???? thinkit.ru ??????? ???????????? ????
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 02:40
  #716 (permalink)  
 
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Fair enough then, no consensus regarding bank angle yet.

Reported AP disengage and "do not worry" expression must fall closely together.

From the translated article and the FR24 vertical data plot, an approximate combined* timeline could look like

01:40:00, at ca. 1200ft, GA commences
01:40:40, at ca. 3300ft, Vs +3500 ft/min, : "Do not worry", and AP disengage (is cavalry discharge warbler recorded?)
01:40:42, at ca. 3500ft, Vs +4000 ft/min, onset of vertical deceleration
01:40:45, at ca. 3600ft, Vs 0 ft/min, : "Don't do this", highest altitude after GA
01:40:50, at ca. 3000ft, Vs -10'000 ft/min, : "Pull, pull, pull"
01:40:54, at ca. 1300ft, Vs -21'000 ft/min, [screaming]
01:41:00 ground impact

(*times adjusted to transcript/vesti, ending at 01:41:00, while the FR24 data plotted by threemiles will have the corresponding point at ca. 01:42:10 )(the CCTV from #589: 01:45:09)
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 02:46
  #717 (permalink)  
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Googling кнюппел (knjuppel) shows a lot of images of control or "joy" sticks. So I follow rather 172driver.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 02:46
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The media message, in essence, is:
"We do not know nothing and feel obliged to warn you about it. However, we managed to obtain a textual representation of the voices' record, what was heard - we were let to know about the last seconds of the record. There were 3 phrases there followed by a shout. The phrases were this, and that, translated into Russian, the shout we won't let you know of for ethic considerations.
Based on that, we deduced that "large atmospheric scissors" happened to the plane, together with mis-play of the "button of the joystick / button on the joystick / button of the button/ no buttons, joystick. - anyway, what the aviators call "knuppel" - either in the result of the accidental touch of it by the pilots or it was the "automation" itself. At 01:40:40, by Greenwich, sharp."

Last edited by Alice025; 26th Mar 2016 at 03:04.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 04:27
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Russian TV at it's best :-/

CVR translated to Russian with some noise added so it sounds like the real recording, with blame speculations to follow...

Anyway, the word "Knuppel" sounds in a sentence "Stabiliser is activated by a button that pilots call Knuppel"
The word "button" goes at the moment when CGI'ed pilot's left thumb flicks the switch on the CGI'ed yoke.
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Old 26th Mar 2016, 04:40
  #720 (permalink)  
 
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In what way does the FR24 data contraindicate a significant L or R roll? Honest question as all I see is vert. velocity and ground speed. It will help me better understand the data as it is.
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