Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 22nd Mar 2016, 06:45
  #421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 57
Posts: 3,146
Received 540 Likes on 152 Posts
one may blame all the industry,fatigue,bad training,poor handling but unfortunately it seems a case of poor judgement which turned out deadly.
When long term fatigue sets in a real laissez faire attitude is one thing that often occurs, with that comes cases of poor judgement.
I am in no way suggesting that this occurred here because we simply don't know what happened at this stage.
framer is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:16
  #422 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 57
Posts: 3,146
Received 540 Likes on 152 Posts
I would be very interested in the photo of the f/o's roster if I could read it properly.
If someone who lives in Dubai could take the time to convert all the sign on and sign off times to Dubai local time and reproduce it in a post then pilots from all around the globe could read it, understand how similar or dis-similar it is to their own rosters and we could have a really meaningful discussion around the fatigue topic that is dominating this thread.
The photo can be found in the link at post #444
Thank you in advance.
Framer
framer is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:23
  #423 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Dorado
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by porkflyer
When I heard of a 737 falling out of the sky in Russia immediately Turkish came to my mind...why? If FZ pilots are worked to death.. give try a THY 737 roster..and than you tell me if you would fly as passenger. Done that..never again.

https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydu...fatigue-crash/
Very interesting schedule of the F/O...
LLuCCiFeR is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:30
  #424 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 57
Posts: 3,146
Received 540 Likes on 152 Posts
The schedule of the f/o needs to be posted on here in a way that all of us can relate to. ( ie easy to read and all in Dubai time) This is pretty serious stuff we are dealing with, if someone could take the time to do it we could gain an appreciation of what he personally, and we as an industry are dealing with.
framer is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:36
  #425 (permalink)  
HDP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: N/A - Nomad
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The roster appears to be in Dubai time already. The scheduled departure time of the flight to Rostov is 21:45, which shows on the roster with a duty check-in time of 20:45.
HDP is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:50
  #426 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Doha
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Roster

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
Hidalgo737 is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:54
  #427 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can be the snow that fell on Rostov in the morning, when first TV crews arrived there.
Yes, it looks like snow/ice on the fuselage side, ice on the emergency exit, but nothing on the internal components?
FlyingOfficerKite is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:09
  #428 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Chesty, the difference is that on take off, the speed is controlled through the MCP window, not the flap lever, and both target speed and level off tend to be higher, so a wider margin over minimum speed is commanded and usually attained before Alt Aqu can knock it back to a speed below safe flying speed for the flap position.
Aluminium shuffler is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:23
  #429 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Near EGCC
Age: 41
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A terrible incident - one of the MANY reasons I left FDB was this kind of roster. The tiredness is something I have never experienced before.
And Vortex is absolutely spot on.
This company is dangerous, the people in accountable positions should now be held fully accountable.
A disgrace.
wingbar is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:42
  #430 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Standby
Age: 64
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Actually that roster looks quite good compared to a certain UK TP operators one especially now EASA FTLs are now in.
Please Call Crewing is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:49
  #431 (permalink)  
HDP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: N/A - Nomad
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'd be more interested in the captain's roster, as it was rumoured he'd flown 11 days previously with only one day of full break.
HDP is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:50
  #432 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by wingbar
A terrible incident - one of the MANY reasons I left FDB was this kind of roster. The tiredness is something I have never experienced before.
And Vortex is absolutely spot on.
This company is dangerous, the people in accountable positions should now be held fully accountable.
A disgrace.
If a catastrophic accident such as this occurred to a Chinese Airline you would already have the management involved jumping from high positions.
kungfu panda is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:50
  #433 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's Sean's turn
Posts: 1,903
Received 10 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Aluminium shuffler
Chesty, the difference is that on take off, the speed is controlled through the MCP window, not the flap lever, and both target speed and level off tend to be higher, so a wider margin over minimum speed is commanded and usually attained before Alt Aqu can knock it back to a speed below safe flying speed for the flap position.
Take off and go around the speed is controlled by pitch.

The speed bug is controlled by the MCP and the flap lever...until ALT ACQ. There's no real difference in the way you fly it (hand flying with AT engaged) up to that point.
Chesty Morgan is online now  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:53
  #434 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Judging by the various comments in this thread, it makes me wonder if airlines permit their crews to fly an ILS manually, anymore? Is it that dangerous to do so? Or is that for CAVOK approaches only?
Yes,thanks god.
I do it each day i fly to base,about 15/20 mins of manual,no FD...done a go around raw data at 50 feet due to a blocked runway,yeah an extra 10-15 of manual.
We not only do it but enjoy it but yes some who dont do it may find it stressful rather than enjoyable.
de facto is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 09:56
  #435 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Nice
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
When I heard of a 737 falling out of the sky in Russia immediately Turkish came to my mind...why? If FZ pilots are worked to death.. give it a try a THY 737 roster..and than you tell me if you would fly as passenger. Done that..never again.
I have seen and flown worse rosters, with more night work and multiple sectors. This is pretty much industry standard, in the low end of the market. And yes, sleeping on duty was fairly standard, esp at 03:00 or 05:00. Someone mentioned I was blaming all airlines. Not at all, but there is a significant section at the low end of the industry where this is quite normal.

But nothing changes. You can shout at the authorities all you like, but they don't even have the decency to reply. All they are interested in is an easy life and a nice pension, and squaring up to the likes of these shouty managers and owners is not on their priority list. Iy will take more than 60 deaths to get them out of the office.
tatelyle is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 10:16
  #436 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in the hills
Age: 68
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The guy on RT News is evidently now based in Qatar, I don't fancy his chances of keeping his job too long.......
wheelbarrow is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 10:18
  #437 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: WMKK/KUL
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
IMHO the first officers roster from 11 MAR to day of crash still looks "manageable", (definitely legal), however I did see a minimum rest between one particular duty of 12/13hrs. Not sure the distance between the airplane to his residence/place of rest-- but if he could be home in under 2hrs, from airplane chocks on to bedroom, that would still be OK. As in, not ideal working conditions but then again ideal is subjective.

For some people, all they want to do is just fly fly fly. If you had a kid, like me, bouncing on your bed because he just got up (and you are just about to go to bed), now this roster becomes rather tough(er), but still manageable, yes? We manage our own rests and should know/respect our own limits.

Am interested to see the Captains roster.

Also, are they paid a flat salary at FlyDubai or based on sectors/hours etc. If flat salary monthly, you could just "call in sick" and you would be given XYZ days a year, right? Just asking.
jfkjohan is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 10:30
  #438 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Airbubba,

Thanks for the heads-up on the progress on reading the CVR. I thought they would succeed, since it was mostly an interface problem and not damaged memory modules.

Turns out the MAK (or IAC as they prefer to call themselves internationally) has an English-langauge page on the investigation.

Bernd
bsieker is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 10:35
  #439 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The advanced discussion on use of automatics etc somewhat detracts from the core question of situational awareness and decision making. The roster is not that punishing compared to many loco, however, the decision to hold in turbulent conditions for 2 hrs raises questions. If the crew were fatigued the reliance on automation or missing what's actually happening when buttons are pressed is normal we see it in the sim every day. Failing a catosphrofic failure this looks like a loss of SA and pilot capacity for whatever reason. I very much doubt airline management or bean counters in our industry will take stock of the reasons
Avenger is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2016, 10:43
  #440 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: twixt rock and hard place
Age: 61
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whilst fatigue may well have played a part, it is interesting to see that the accident flight and the previous two night flights are flights the f/o had bid to operate (indicated by the "R" at the bottom of the column for Friday - the day they reported for work).

I would not contest that this may be a fatiguing work pattern, but at the risk of being flamed would suggest that you can't really ask to fly three nights in a row and then complain about being fatigued. Whilst it may not be fashionable to defend Flydubai in this thread, I am far junior to both of these guys, but on the same day operated a much easier flight ending about 9pm local time, so presumably had they bid for day flights they would have got them, as I did.
arcdu is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.