B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
one may blame all the industry,fatigue,bad training,poor handling but unfortunately it seems a case of poor judgement which turned out deadly.
I am in no way suggesting that this occurred here because we simply don't know what happened at this stage.
I would be very interested in the photo of the f/o's roster if I could read it properly.
If someone who lives in Dubai could take the time to convert all the sign on and sign off times to Dubai local time and reproduce it in a post then pilots from all around the globe could read it, understand how similar or dis-similar it is to their own rosters and we could have a really meaningful discussion around the fatigue topic that is dominating this thread.
The photo can be found in the link at post #444
Thank you in advance.
Framer
If someone who lives in Dubai could take the time to convert all the sign on and sign off times to Dubai local time and reproduce it in a post then pilots from all around the globe could read it, understand how similar or dis-similar it is to their own rosters and we could have a really meaningful discussion around the fatigue topic that is dominating this thread.
The photo can be found in the link at post #444
Thank you in advance.
Framer
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When I heard of a 737 falling out of the sky in Russia immediately Turkish came to my mind...why? If FZ pilots are worked to death.. give try a THY 737 roster..and than you tell me if you would fly as passenger. Done that..never again.
https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydu...fatigue-crash/
https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydu...fatigue-crash/
The schedule of the f/o needs to be posted on here in a way that all of us can relate to. ( ie easy to read and all in Dubai time) This is pretty serious stuff we are dealing with, if someone could take the time to do it we could gain an appreciation of what he personally, and we as an industry are dealing with.
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The roster appears to be in Dubai time already. The scheduled departure time of the flight to Rostov is 21:45, which shows on the roster with a duty check-in time of 20:45.
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Can be the snow that fell on Rostov in the morning, when first TV crews arrived there.
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Chesty, the difference is that on take off, the speed is controlled through the MCP window, not the flap lever, and both target speed and level off tend to be higher, so a wider margin over minimum speed is commanded and usually attained before Alt Aqu can knock it back to a speed below safe flying speed for the flap position.
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A terrible incident - one of the MANY reasons I left FDB was this kind of roster. The tiredness is something I have never experienced before.
And Vortex is absolutely spot on.
This company is dangerous, the people in accountable positions should now be held fully accountable.
A disgrace.
And Vortex is absolutely spot on.
This company is dangerous, the people in accountable positions should now be held fully accountable.
A disgrace.
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A terrible incident - one of the MANY reasons I left FDB was this kind of roster. The tiredness is something I have never experienced before.
And Vortex is absolutely spot on.
This company is dangerous, the people in accountable positions should now be held fully accountable.
A disgrace.
And Vortex is absolutely spot on.
This company is dangerous, the people in accountable positions should now be held fully accountable.
A disgrace.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Chesty, the difference is that on take off, the speed is controlled through the MCP window, not the flap lever, and both target speed and level off tend to be higher, so a wider margin over minimum speed is commanded and usually attained before Alt Aqu can knock it back to a speed below safe flying speed for the flap position.
The speed bug is controlled by the MCP and the flap lever...until ALT ACQ. There's no real difference in the way you fly it (hand flying with AT engaged) up to that point.
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Judging by the various comments in this thread, it makes me wonder if airlines permit their crews to fly an ILS manually, anymore? Is it that dangerous to do so? Or is that for CAVOK approaches only?
I do it each day i fly to base,about 15/20 mins of manual,no FD...done a go around raw data at 50 feet due to a blocked runway,yeah an extra 10-15 of manual.
We not only do it but enjoy it but yes some who dont do it may find it stressful rather than enjoyable.
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When I heard of a 737 falling out of the sky in Russia immediately Turkish came to my mind...why? If FZ pilots are worked to death.. give it a try a THY 737 roster..and than you tell me if you would fly as passenger. Done that..never again.
But nothing changes. You can shout at the authorities all you like, but they don't even have the decency to reply. All they are interested in is an easy life and a nice pension, and squaring up to the likes of these shouty managers and owners is not on their priority list. Iy will take more than 60 deaths to get them out of the office.
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IMHO the first officers roster from 11 MAR to day of crash still looks "manageable", (definitely legal), however I did see a minimum rest between one particular duty of 12/13hrs. Not sure the distance between the airplane to his residence/place of rest-- but if he could be home in under 2hrs, from airplane chocks on to bedroom, that would still be OK. As in, not ideal working conditions but then again ideal is subjective.
For some people, all they want to do is just fly fly fly. If you had a kid, like me, bouncing on your bed because he just got up (and you are just about to go to bed), now this roster becomes rather tough(er), but still manageable, yes? We manage our own rests and should know/respect our own limits.
Am interested to see the Captains roster.
Also, are they paid a flat salary at FlyDubai or based on sectors/hours etc. If flat salary monthly, you could just "call in sick" and you would be given XYZ days a year, right? Just asking.
For some people, all they want to do is just fly fly fly. If you had a kid, like me, bouncing on your bed because he just got up (and you are just about to go to bed), now this roster becomes rather tough(er), but still manageable, yes? We manage our own rests and should know/respect our own limits.
Am interested to see the Captains roster.
Also, are they paid a flat salary at FlyDubai or based on sectors/hours etc. If flat salary monthly, you could just "call in sick" and you would be given XYZ days a year, right? Just asking.
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Airbubba,
Thanks for the heads-up on the progress on reading the CVR. I thought they would succeed, since it was mostly an interface problem and not damaged memory modules.
Turns out the MAK (or IAC as they prefer to call themselves internationally) has an English-langauge page on the investigation.
Bernd
Thanks for the heads-up on the progress on reading the CVR. I thought they would succeed, since it was mostly an interface problem and not damaged memory modules.
Turns out the MAK (or IAC as they prefer to call themselves internationally) has an English-langauge page on the investigation.
Bernd
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The advanced discussion on use of automatics etc somewhat detracts from the core question of situational awareness and decision making. The roster is not that punishing compared to many loco, however, the decision to hold in turbulent conditions for 2 hrs raises questions. If the crew were fatigued the reliance on automation or missing what's actually happening when buttons are pressed is normal we see it in the sim every day. Failing a catosphrofic failure this looks like a loss of SA and pilot capacity for whatever reason. I very much doubt airline management or bean counters in our industry will take stock of the reasons
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Whilst fatigue may well have played a part, it is interesting to see that the accident flight and the previous two night flights are flights the f/o had bid to operate (indicated by the "R" at the bottom of the column for Friday - the day they reported for work).
I would not contest that this may be a fatiguing work pattern, but at the risk of being flamed would suggest that you can't really ask to fly three nights in a row and then complain about being fatigued. Whilst it may not be fashionable to defend Flydubai in this thread, I am far junior to both of these guys, but on the same day operated a much easier flight ending about 9pm local time, so presumably had they bid for day flights they would have got them, as I did.
I would not contest that this may be a fatiguing work pattern, but at the risk of being flamed would suggest that you can't really ask to fly three nights in a row and then complain about being fatigued. Whilst it may not be fashionable to defend Flydubai in this thread, I am far junior to both of these guys, but on the same day operated a much easier flight ending about 9pm local time, so presumably had they bid for day flights they would have got them, as I did.