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TransAsia in the water?

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TransAsia in the water?

Old 6th Feb 2015, 07:57
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like engine #2 failed (blue, dotted) but pilots shut off #1 (green).

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Old 6th Feb 2015, 07:58
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at the engine plot that's been published it looks like the live engine was shut down.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:08
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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TransAsia in the water?

Why did they throttle #1 engine back? That's the million dollar question. Uh oh. I hope it doesn't turn out to be what it feels like it is.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:10
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Why did the RH bleed valve close at the same time as the ENG 1 master warning? Is this something the ATR does automatically?
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:12
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Uh oh. I hope it doesn't turn out to be what it feels like it is.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck .. it's a duck!!
Another aviation classic - shutting down wrong engine, have we seen it before?
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:23
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Cross wiring ? was mentioned after Kegworth, of course it wasn't the case there, but I remember in checks of many other Boeings (inc 757's if I remember) there were cases of cross-wiring discovered, or is my old memory playing tricks ?
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:26
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Quoted from sky news:

Thomas Wang, director of the safety council, said: "Based on the data we have so far we can see that for a period of time both engines showed not thrust."

He added: "The right engine flamed out and triggered a warning in the cockpit. The left engine was shut down by command and the pilot tried to restart the engine but couldn't."

Unfortunately sounds very much like the wrong engine was identified.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:48
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Cross wiring ?
Regardless, pilots have multiple ways to verify which engine failed, in some small twins there are no fancy 'lights' to tell you which one it is, you verify with your feet/throttle and double checking other instruments, if a lowly GA pilot is trained to do it and do it fast an ATP pilot hauling people for hire should be able to do it even better.
(the cross-wiring discovered would have no relation to such accident)
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 08:49
  #249 (permalink)  

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What we need now is the CVR to be made available in due course to really get the complete picture.

CRM will once again come under scrutiny. It is one thing in the cold light of day to identify what went wrong; the difficult part is to understand WHY?

Just what were the mental processes which triggered this, and, with a third pair of eyes of an experienced pilot even more puzzling.

A lot to understand and learn from. Use it to educate and protect others.

Last edited by parkfell; 6th Feb 2015 at 09:38. Reason: Clarity for OLD CHINA
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:06
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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@ oldchina...

I think parkfell meant in do time it should be released so that others in the pilot community can study this case and learn from it.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:19
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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According to investigators at a briefing in Taipei, the plane ran into trouble just 37 seconds after taking off from Taipei's Songshan airport.
Thomas Wang, director of the Aviation Safety Council, said the pilot announced a "flame-out", which can occur when the fuel supply to the engine is interrupted or when there is faulty combustion.
However, he said there was no flame-out, and the right engine had actually shifted into idle mode without the oil pressure having changed.
"The plane flashed a flame-out signal for one of the two engines at 10:53:28 when the plane climbed to an altitude of 1,200ft, triggering a warning," AFP news agency quoted Mr Wang as saying.
"Then the other [left] engine was shut down manually. The pilot tried to restart the engines but to no avail. That means that during the flight's final moments, neither engine had any thrust. We heard 'Mayday' at 10:54:35," he added.
The plane, which had been bound for Taiwan's Kinmen Island, crashed into the Keelung River just 72 seconds later.
BBC News - TransAsia GE235: Taiwan plane crash engines 'lost power'

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/pilots-bod...e.html#SgCxa19
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:34
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Why did the RH bleed valve close at the same time as the ENG 1 master warning? Is this something the ATR does automatically?
The way I'm reading it is that Engine 2 failed, the ATPCS did its job which is Uptrim Engine 1, AFX Eng 2 and Close the live Eng Bleed (Eng 1). It's normal functioning of the system.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:37
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Priorities

Regardless of the emergency or the responses, correct or otherwise...

Someone has to fly the aircraft and keep it within the envelop. Had they not stalled although a crash was inevitable more people would have survived had a pilot maintained control of the aircraft and ditched in the river.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:39
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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I do wonder how much attention was being given to the flying of the plane, vs the frantic attempts to restart engine #1. They nearly got it too.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:40
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Looking again at the FDR track, some things seem odd:

(FDR track) http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9JarHTIAAAgAy3.jpg:large

#2 flameout and beta come into play. ITT, fuel flow and NP drop _but remain above #1 even when #1 is shut down._

Oil pressure, NL and NH for #2 also remain above #1 shutdown condition values.

Speculation:

False alarm on #2, #2 automatically goes into beta (and idle fuel flow - does the automatic system do this?) but is selected at full throttle - the display for #2 may show that it's good i.e. high objective tq, etc. This leads to:

#1 shut down conventionally by command but has no problems?
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:41
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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maybe they were “pre-conditioned” into thinking “left engine”.
It wouldn't be the first time that this has happened, especially if the "problems" with the left engine were discussed prior to departure, or even included as part of the briefing.

The CVR data will be invaluable to the investigation team.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:43
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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Parkfell
Just what were the mental processes which triggered this,
It's a good question, although we may never know.

I still haven't heard a valid explanation of the mental process used to fly an Asiana B777 into the ground from a CAVOK visual approach, and those guys survived to tell the tale.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:46
  #258 (permalink)  

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B777

Try CRM issues......
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:49
  #259 (permalink)  
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JJ above says:
It becomes even more interesting if that rumour about the captain reporting a problem with the left engine on the previous leg is true in the sense that maybe they were “pre-conditioned” into thinking “left engine”.

As soon as I saw the news today I feared this scenario. My comment is based only on an early assessment of probability.


Imagine the skipper's mindset at this time, 'pre-conditioned' is a good enough term and I'm sure psychologists would be very aware of the huge bias towards an engine thought to be faulty. On top of this was probably an associated frustration at the company's 'rebuf' - all this churning around in his mind as the anticipated actually happened. It takes a disciplined mind to then accept it might be the 'good' engine.
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 09:51
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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IF it's true that the wrong eng was shutdown, then it's possible that the existence of a check capt was an intimidating variable. Many pilots tend to change their natural behavior under check and go somewhat into acting/posturing mode. If vulnerable to 'checkitis' they are not directly responding to the situation, but thinking "what's he thinking" about what I'm doing.
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