Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

TransAsia in the water?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

TransAsia in the water?

Old 5th Feb 2015, 13:22
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 1,210
Received 54 Likes on 32 Posts
Without (as yet) knowing the full circumstances of the accident, it's noteworthy that a 'mayday' was sent apparently before aircraft control was established, which perhaps is not the best prioritisation of actions. As an examiner I noted that some crews did this during sim checks, which prompted me to write:

there is absolutely no point whatsover in sending ‘Mayday’ before the aircraft is under control and following the correct flight path. ATC can help you with neither of these
in my article 'How To Do Well In The Sim'. Of course, if the situation is beyond recovery then a 'mayday' is vital to alert SAR services who might be able to rescue potential survivors.
Discorde is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 13:37
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 881
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Perhaps the "Mayday and engine flameout" message to ATC was sent after the initial memory items were completed and aircraft under control.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 13:47
  #183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Swansea
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Looking at the footage of the luggage being retrieved from the tail section in the river, it appears there are a large number of extremely heavy suitcases being removed. I know they will be full of water but still ...
A standard size cabin bag flooded with water would tip the scales at around 50kg, let alone an item of hold luggage.
DespairingTraveller is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 14:44
  #184 (permalink)  
Psychophysiological entity
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tweet Rob_Benham Famous author. Well, slightly famous.
Age: 84
Posts: 3,286
Received 63 Likes on 30 Posts
First… To those who know this airport. Do we know if one of the SIDs at this airport requires a right turn after departure?

If things were going TU at a very early stage, he may well have over-dramatized the turn away from high-ish ground. His local knowledge might also have influenced him to turn well away from huge gas/fuel bottles and go for low terrain. That would certainly indicate he feared a normal single engine profile was not going to be achieved.
Loose rivets is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 14:49
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 67
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CAA Taïwan
All ATR grounded ?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0VF1TX20150205
A grounding of Taiwan's 22 ATR aircraft was not ordered despite the incident, the second fatal crash involving a TransAsia plane in seven months.
Well .............
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/05/as...safety-record/
jcjeant is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 14:50
  #186 (permalink)  
Psychophysiological entity
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tweet Rob_Benham Famous author. Well, slightly famous.
Age: 84
Posts: 3,286
Received 63 Likes on 30 Posts
Mmm . . . what do they know that we don't?
Loose rivets is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 14:52
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 881
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
@ jcjeant...

All the ATRs or just the 600 model?
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 16:04
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In my seat
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry but I do not necessaryly agree with the idea that a Mayday is not necessary asap.

It is vital that WHEN TIME ALLOWS, to warn ATC that you are in trouble.

Why?

1) they will not interfere when seing you swerve rom flightpath

2) they can reroute, hold all other traffic asap freeing your way to whatever course you must go

3) in case of you being behind the aircraft and headingmtowards terrain, they can warn and offer escape vector. ( in a radar environment)

This is of course when in a terminal area below msa etc...

Obviously,maircraft under control comes first, then memory items, but you are with two on the flightdeck.
despegue is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 16:11
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ventura, California
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Deep Stall

Anyone get the impression that with that nose high atitude and steep angle of descent as it crosses the buildings, it may have been in an unrecoverable stall at that point?
thcrozier is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 16:40
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Despeque

Aviate, navigate, communicate. When the sh1t hits the fan even more so.
Kelly Hopper is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 16:43
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern Shores of Lusitania Kingdom
Age: 53
Posts: 863
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
This very same aircraft B-22816 on the morning of 19th April last year declared a mayday and then cnl in favour of a full standby prevention at Macau due to the Hidraulic System lost at Engine 1, minutes before landing.
JanetFlight is online now  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 16:59
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Looking at the Mode S transponder graph, I get a different impression of what happened.

First, as far as I know, the "speed" being sent from the transponder is IAS, not ground speed. What it appears then is that the aircraft accelerated to near 116 knots and took off. At this point the climb profile is immediately abnormal. The plane is climbing steeply, but the IAS is immediately decreasing, instead of pilots making sure the speed stays constant or accelerating. Whatever their throttle settings or whether they have 2 or 1 good engines.......clearly the pilots are not monitoring their speed (seen that so many times now) through the departure climb, and they never regained that lost situational awareness.

For a full minute after take-off, the pilots keep the same rate of climb, but the speed decays every so slowly and gradually. Finally, at ~105 knots the plane gently stalls (From reading ATR-72 specs this is about the normal stall speed when clean and heavy), and we see a immediate reduction in the rate of climb. But it is still climbing....slower, but still climbing and still recoverable. Wings lost a lot of lift, but the AoA and high engine thrust still pulling them up, but unable to maintain speed and going to be in deep trouble if don't immediately start proper stall recovery procedure.

Then in those crucial seconds the pilots do what so many other pilots have done before them. Instead of gently easing the stick pressure and letting the engines pull them back onto the curve, they pull the nose up further and now the speed REALLY drops off. Now they got no speed, and losing altitude. And that's where they hold the nose all the way down, staying below stall speed until they crash. Look at the crash video, nose was kept above the horizon......all the way down until hit the bridge.

I don't buy the "engine failure" reports. It does happen, but statistically it is so very rare on these aircraft, and besides this aircraft is capable of a single engine departure (albeit tricky). We know that instead from crashes that depressingly the single most probable cause is pilot error, particularly in this neck of the woods.

"Engine failure" is probably what they thought or yelled in the few seconds they had during a high workload environment as the only thing that made "sense". Throttles set high/full, my nose is above the horizon, but the plane dropping out of the sky......hmmm, must be engine failure! Particularly as we know a lot of these pilots have probably never experienced a real-world stall/near-stall situation before. We've seen this before on several crashes, same thing on Colgan Air, AF447 etc. In the confusion the pilots brain just can't detect the reason they are descending with throttle levers pushed up and nose up is because they are stalled. "Engine failure" is the only rationale explanation that comes in those confused moments.
Nock187 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 16:59
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

free image uploading


Unconfirmed seating chart. Not final.

Red = Survivors
White = Empty seats
Blue = Deceased or Missing

The flight crew are confirmed deceased sadly.
armchairpilot94116 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 17:48
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unconfirmed seating chart. Not final.
You'll never get a final seating chart because (some) people make changes inside the plane to sit alone or together.

Nevertheless, still amazing some got out alive!
wingview is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 18:05
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: US
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Passenger’s statement about engine:

Huang Chin-shun, a 72-year-old man, said he helped save four lives by unclipping safety belts.

"Shortly after taking off, I felt something was not right," he told CNN affiliate ETTV. "I thought: 'something's wrong with the engine,' because I always take this flight."
BG47 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 18:20
  #196 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,736
Received 19 Likes on 11 Posts
A grounding of Taiwan's 22 ATR aircraf
I read that figure before but according to airfleets , Transasia just has ( had) 11 ATRs , all 72s, in operation, where do the other 11 come from ?
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 18:22
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 77
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The passengers`s statement may be meaningful. Possible indication of engine loss after V2 and crew forced to take problem into the air. The real mystery is unless they also lost thrust on the remaining engine, then why were they unable to maintain altitude or climb.
As and when the power plants and props are recovered we might get a better idea whether or not the props were under power or not. Has anyone seen any photos of the recovered props or blades.
Chronus is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 18:24
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Age: 80
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Contaminated fuel?

Is there any risk the a/c was fueled wtht water contaminated or incorrect fuel, that dergraded the trust om the left and later took out the engines one by one, when the "dirty" fuel reached the engines?
does Someone have experiance about that?
JohanB is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 18:28
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hades.
Posts: 752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
TV footage of the wreckage being recovered appeared to show an engine with feathered prop. All supposition at this time.

http://www.bbc.com/news/31143640

Look around the 38 second point.
helen-damnation is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2015, 18:34
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 77
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
synchrophaser

The engine and chewed up prop looks feathered.

In the event the synchrophaser malfunctioned or was not selected off, would this lead to autofeathering, especially with ATPCS disarmed. Has there been any previous issues realting to this on type.
Chronus is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.