U.S. pilots will not be armed... (merged)
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RE: Capt. Crosswind
Man, am I glad I don't have that obectionable nerve in my teeth.
Perhaps it's slipped that vise-like grip you've got on perspective...
Of the 276 people that perished aboard aircraft on 9/11: 8 of them were pilots, 25 of them were cabin crew, and the remaining 243 were passengers.
And, if you'll recall: The only people that demonstrated any potential for interfering with the plan to use aircraft as weapons of mass destruction on that terrible morning, they weren't in the cockpit.
If I believed that there was even the smallest degree of intelligence in arming anyone on that aircraft--it sure as hell wouldn't be you--it would be your cabin crew.
The number of casualties was over tenfold higher because those aircraft were used as weapons of destruction that morning--and God only knows how many more would have died, if 93 had found its target.
Please excuse the intrusion of reason. I'll leave you boys to play this ridiculous, ego-gratifying game of "tough guy". Bleeech.
Suggest non aviators should not clutter up the thread & leave operational matters to those in the front line.
Perhaps it's slipped that vise-like grip you've got on perspective...
Of the 276 people that perished aboard aircraft on 9/11: 8 of them were pilots, 25 of them were cabin crew, and the remaining 243 were passengers.
And, if you'll recall: The only people that demonstrated any potential for interfering with the plan to use aircraft as weapons of mass destruction on that terrible morning, they weren't in the cockpit.
If I believed that there was even the smallest degree of intelligence in arming anyone on that aircraft--it sure as hell wouldn't be you--it would be your cabin crew.
The number of casualties was over tenfold higher because those aircraft were used as weapons of destruction that morning--and God only knows how many more would have died, if 93 had found its target.
Please excuse the intrusion of reason. I'll leave you boys to play this ridiculous, ego-gratifying game of "tough guy". Bleeech.
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Mriya-
You are your own best argument. Your words are great and many but you have yet to present a viable alternative.
As far as ego's go:
Who's "we"?
----------------------------------
You are your own best argument. Your words are great and many but you have yet to present a viable alternative.
As far as ego's go:
You know as well as I do, that if it comes to that--we will shoot you down.
----------------------------------
Union Goon
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From your post.
You seam to claim that Israel will attack the US and pretend to be palestinian. Maybe you should read your own posts...
Cheers
Wino
As I've no doubt the US administration is all too well aware, standing up for the Palestinians againt Israel's bullying could well lead to a dramatic and lethal increase in attacks against the US apparently carried out by Palestinians.
Cheers
Wino
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Armed & Fortified Flight Deck
It might be useful to define what is meant by the above.
*Closed circuit video covering the cabin.
*Double door flight deck access - that is, a system which limits access to one person at a time & the second door can't open until the first door is closed.
*Both pilots armed with revolvers firing frangible rounds
Airport Security
The usual system tightened up and with full CAPPS capability,viz., racial & nationality profiling
With the above in place it makes a suicide hijack as close to impossible as we can get.
I believe the Airline Passengers Association has demanded that
pilots be armed , and the Anti Gun lobby are happy with this also.
It's the rear echelon bureaucrats that living in Disney Land on this issue.
*Closed circuit video covering the cabin.
*Double door flight deck access - that is, a system which limits access to one person at a time & the second door can't open until the first door is closed.
*Both pilots armed with revolvers firing frangible rounds
Airport Security
The usual system tightened up and with full CAPPS capability,viz., racial & nationality profiling
With the above in place it makes a suicide hijack as close to impossible as we can get.
I believe the Airline Passengers Association has demanded that
pilots be armed , and the Anti Gun lobby are happy with this also.
It's the rear echelon bureaucrats that living in Disney Land on this issue.
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Anti Highjack Measures
Mriya225
My comment related to the arguments against the arming of pilots & not to the sub threads such as the geopolitical aspects of the War against Terrorism etc.
I would not be so churlish as to dispute your right to voice an opinion on these matters. (See my apology to Neutral99)
However,unhelpfull arguments in the negative, such as 'pilots shooting themselves by accident',& your statement without any qualification that "pilots will never be armed" cross the line where your rights end and an Aircraft Commanders rights & responsibilities begin, responsibilities laid down in legislation,( not that bureaucrats like J.Magraw appear to understand this.) You now buy into the area of command responsibility & my suggestion was/is that this is reserved for those who are so qualified.
For that minority of the qualified who make statements like "no guns in my cockpit " they have abdicated their responsibilty & should not have command of a balloon on a string.
Read the posting by Orca on the people who are armed in the performance of their duty & reflect on what is at stake here.
As for the action of the aircrew on 9/11, they did as they were trained to do in a hijack -" go along with the demands & when you get on the ground it will be negotiated to as safe a conclusion as possible." We now know this is not the way to handle a WW III hijack, it is now a matter of having superior security & firepower.
My comment related to the arguments against the arming of pilots & not to the sub threads such as the geopolitical aspects of the War against Terrorism etc.
I would not be so churlish as to dispute your right to voice an opinion on these matters. (See my apology to Neutral99)
However,unhelpfull arguments in the negative, such as 'pilots shooting themselves by accident',& your statement without any qualification that "pilots will never be armed" cross the line where your rights end and an Aircraft Commanders rights & responsibilities begin, responsibilities laid down in legislation,( not that bureaucrats like J.Magraw appear to understand this.) You now buy into the area of command responsibility & my suggestion was/is that this is reserved for those who are so qualified.
For that minority of the qualified who make statements like "no guns in my cockpit " they have abdicated their responsibilty & should not have command of a balloon on a string.
Read the posting by Orca on the people who are armed in the performance of their duty & reflect on what is at stake here.
As for the action of the aircrew on 9/11, they did as they were trained to do in a hijack -" go along with the demands & when you get on the ground it will be negotiated to as safe a conclusion as possible." We now know this is not the way to handle a WW III hijack, it is now a matter of having superior security & firepower.
Last edited by Capt. Crosswind; 10th Jun 2002 at 01:32.
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Neutral - The Lavon Affair was a classic case of this.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/lavon.html
Also, the attack on the USS LIBERTY was supposed to be blamed on Egypt, but the ship just wouldn't sink and there were eyewitness to this one. The men who went overboard in rafts were killed by strafing.
We responded with Billion$ in aid.
The OD is a friend of mine, Jim Ennes.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/lavon.html
Also, the attack on the USS LIBERTY was supposed to be blamed on Egypt, but the ship just wouldn't sink and there were eyewitness to this one. The men who went overboard in rafts were killed by strafing.
We responded with Billion$ in aid.
The OD is a friend of mine, Jim Ennes.
Last edited by I. M. Esperto; 29th May 2002 at 16:13.
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Armed and Dangerous
Hey guys, Mriya225 sent me over to shed a little light on your request to be armed...
I have a minute or two of background in weapons so put up with this for a second.
Question, what weapon would you like to use? 9mm, 45, 22? Basically you would have to re-work the round to be used in an aircraft. Last images I saw of Federal Air Marshals training used a Sig 9mm, bad choice, your going through the person and into the airframe. The 22 or 45 is all you have and then your only getting so many rounds or at least no first round stopping power. We can't even talk Glaser Safety slugs, designed to penetrate first, expand second. Sub sonic loads, who's going to make them? United Mechanics, sure after the government signs on Remington, or Federal will probably love the contract, thats after some R&D to be sure they don't get sued for jams, malfunctions, or loss of life. Someone will start an Armory Union to outfit you guys, take care of the weapons and ammo. Fragable rounds don't break up when you want them too.
Next, who is going to carry it and where? The Pilot? Left seat, so your also left handed right, because your facing the wrong way and have about 3 seconds to react, so if it was me, I would put the round through my own right shoulder to hit the target in time. So you're probably just giving the gun to the extremely & overly trained hijacker... let's not forget there is going to be about 4 to 5 guys you need to stop. The right round to maybe not penetrate the person and plane more than likely won't cycle the pistol action, so wheel gun or manual, (only 6 rounds max in wheel?) Word on their training, they were only trained by US, English and Russian Special Forces, in places like Fort Bragg, Scotland, and Ukraine, so these guys know what they are doing. This isn't just a last minute idea by a group of extremist.
Then we have to be able to take out at least 4 guys, probably deal with a dead passenger, fly, and live to regret it. Does anyone know how many rounds Police Officers put into the ground during a surprise shooting? 3, a minimum of 3 rounds are going into the ground during a shooting and usually they empty the magazine, that is fact not conjecture. So can you pull the pistol out, compose yourself and fire effectively? (facing the wrong way) I am not sure I could, I actually would feel a bit helpless in that seat... even with a pistol, I bet I start seeing ghosts, jumping at every sound, and touching my piece more often then people would like... Distracting these toys can be.
Best chance I see is locking yourself in the cockpit, and listening to people getting executed behind the door, trying to get you to open it, not a job I want. Another question, your locked in there, you have pistol, 4 guys have your crew and a passengers by the throat and want you out... They already killed two, people are screaming, and you decide to open the door not knowing what you will find on the other side? You step out and two guys with women start to move towards you with their head behind the person, (they don't have to see, they can watch the ground) and as the get closer they throw the first woman at you, jump on top and wrestle the pistol away or do you shoot the women? This is a viable scenerio, try for a leg shot? Go through the floor, what below the aircraft baggage or avionics? Now with that wheel gun you only have 6 rounds, can both armed guys leave the cockpit and attend the problem?
Here is a scene, you're standing in the door, passengers are entering the plane, your wearing the gun, I come on last, hit you and take it, then because I can fly take off without you? Maybe? Guy in court took a weapon off someone today, so it can happen. I don't know too many variables you can't control. A pistol is not the answer, we had a saying in the Marine Corps, "Good to be hard, hard to be smart".
You're better off enlisting the Military to make flights a new duty station and sticking more than one guy on a flight, might be good work. They are already trained, paid and available to work.
Solutions?
I have a minute or two of background in weapons so put up with this for a second.
Question, what weapon would you like to use? 9mm, 45, 22? Basically you would have to re-work the round to be used in an aircraft. Last images I saw of Federal Air Marshals training used a Sig 9mm, bad choice, your going through the person and into the airframe. The 22 or 45 is all you have and then your only getting so many rounds or at least no first round stopping power. We can't even talk Glaser Safety slugs, designed to penetrate first, expand second. Sub sonic loads, who's going to make them? United Mechanics, sure after the government signs on Remington, or Federal will probably love the contract, thats after some R&D to be sure they don't get sued for jams, malfunctions, or loss of life. Someone will start an Armory Union to outfit you guys, take care of the weapons and ammo. Fragable rounds don't break up when you want them too.
Next, who is going to carry it and where? The Pilot? Left seat, so your also left handed right, because your facing the wrong way and have about 3 seconds to react, so if it was me, I would put the round through my own right shoulder to hit the target in time. So you're probably just giving the gun to the extremely & overly trained hijacker... let's not forget there is going to be about 4 to 5 guys you need to stop. The right round to maybe not penetrate the person and plane more than likely won't cycle the pistol action, so wheel gun or manual, (only 6 rounds max in wheel?) Word on their training, they were only trained by US, English and Russian Special Forces, in places like Fort Bragg, Scotland, and Ukraine, so these guys know what they are doing. This isn't just a last minute idea by a group of extremist.
Then we have to be able to take out at least 4 guys, probably deal with a dead passenger, fly, and live to regret it. Does anyone know how many rounds Police Officers put into the ground during a surprise shooting? 3, a minimum of 3 rounds are going into the ground during a shooting and usually they empty the magazine, that is fact not conjecture. So can you pull the pistol out, compose yourself and fire effectively? (facing the wrong way) I am not sure I could, I actually would feel a bit helpless in that seat... even with a pistol, I bet I start seeing ghosts, jumping at every sound, and touching my piece more often then people would like... Distracting these toys can be.
Best chance I see is locking yourself in the cockpit, and listening to people getting executed behind the door, trying to get you to open it, not a job I want. Another question, your locked in there, you have pistol, 4 guys have your crew and a passengers by the throat and want you out... They already killed two, people are screaming, and you decide to open the door not knowing what you will find on the other side? You step out and two guys with women start to move towards you with their head behind the person, (they don't have to see, they can watch the ground) and as the get closer they throw the first woman at you, jump on top and wrestle the pistol away or do you shoot the women? This is a viable scenerio, try for a leg shot? Go through the floor, what below the aircraft baggage or avionics? Now with that wheel gun you only have 6 rounds, can both armed guys leave the cockpit and attend the problem?
Here is a scene, you're standing in the door, passengers are entering the plane, your wearing the gun, I come on last, hit you and take it, then because I can fly take off without you? Maybe? Guy in court took a weapon off someone today, so it can happen. I don't know too many variables you can't control. A pistol is not the answer, we had a saying in the Marine Corps, "Good to be hard, hard to be smart".
You're better off enlisting the Military to make flights a new duty station and sticking more than one guy on a flight, might be good work. They are already trained, paid and available to work.
Solutions?
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Capt. Crosswind,
My apologies for having expressed my visceral indignation, with so little patience. My statement with regard to "pilots never being armed" was meant to be interpreted as a light-hearted ribbing (which is why I specified that it was an impression of John McLaughlin--to call up the image of his grumpy, dogmatic wrapup of segments) in response to Wino's statement, when trying to get the thread back on track.
Gents,
I had hoped I might be able to talk you out of this idea--but, I genuinely appreciate your motives for being adamently in favor of it.
I sent Lowlight over because he's a former USMC scout/sniper and an expert with firearms; I figure:
If you absolutely insist on going this route--the least I can do is introduce you to someone who knows exactly what he's doing, and can guide you through the process of having a realistic idea of tactical impediments and getting the kinds of equipment that will reduce the opportunity for disasterous consequences.
This'll require some pretty special considerations--so, fortheloveofgod, take advantage of this opportunity to pick his brain.
My apologies for having expressed my visceral indignation, with so little patience. My statement with regard to "pilots never being armed" was meant to be interpreted as a light-hearted ribbing (which is why I specified that it was an impression of John McLaughlin--to call up the image of his grumpy, dogmatic wrapup of segments) in response to Wino's statement, when trying to get the thread back on track.
Gents,
I had hoped I might be able to talk you out of this idea--but, I genuinely appreciate your motives for being adamently in favor of it.
I sent Lowlight over because he's a former USMC scout/sniper and an expert with firearms; I figure:
If you absolutely insist on going this route--the least I can do is introduce you to someone who knows exactly what he's doing, and can guide you through the process of having a realistic idea of tactical impediments and getting the kinds of equipment that will reduce the opportunity for disasterous consequences.
This'll require some pretty special considerations--so, fortheloveofgod, take advantage of this opportunity to pick his brain.
Mriya,
So for the ump-teenth time, what is your viable solution?
I can come up with an equal number of scenarios that defend my position of having an armed cockpit.
I guess we just have to sit there in our paper mache vault, pee in our shorts and hope the end is quick and painless when the F-teen puts a sidewinder up our colllective arse.
So for the ump-teenth time, what is your viable solution?
I can come up with an equal number of scenarios that defend my position of having an armed cockpit.
I guess we just have to sit there in our paper mache vault, pee in our shorts and hope the end is quick and painless when the F-teen puts a sidewinder up our colllective arse.
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I can understand you all wanting to flash some teeth with that smile, but pistols = problems, more than a viable solution.
See no 4 hour course is going to prepare you to deal with a group dedicated to inflicting damage to that aircraft. These guys are just too well trained and ready to give their life for the their cause. I figure given the situation, 3 to 5 men intent on taking over the aircraft, possibly wired will take a minimum of two men per target to immobilize the threat, in less than 10 seconds, that is alot of shootin, and twice as much movin than you have room on any plane. No free world anti-terrorist team would execute that without at least 8-10 guys, even if the plane was parked.
Solution, someone said, superior firepower, more like superior manpower, these guys may not be armed with pistols, but they are armed, so you have to move and clear in tandem down 2 ailses together that is just how it works. The cockpit is too small, no ones reaction could be quick enough and at least one man must fire from the weak side. (providing you both don't move at the same time knocking each other out of the way) Any firearm you use must be strong enough for a single round solution, are you willing to fire that same round at the window or instrustment panel from you seat? That is where you most likely to accidently squeeze off a rushed shot...
My thoughts, panic buttons for the cabin crew, and electronic locks on the doors. The flight crew will have to deal with the after effects that you can't stop the threat but may be able to land the plane? Hopefully the government find it unnecessary to shove a missile up your tailpipe, though a missile might be more merciful? Suppose you get pistols, the bad guys know this because the PR machine wants to shout it from the rooftops and they begin to train to work your own egos and training against you, these guys do their homework and are betting on you going soft. May take years, but over those years you begin to think the pistols worked and all is well... Surprise!
I think men in black on planes, more than one, less than five, rotating tours of duty, young hard chargers from the military. The Airlines want government help, government money, well now protect my investment in that flight.
See no 4 hour course is going to prepare you to deal with a group dedicated to inflicting damage to that aircraft. These guys are just too well trained and ready to give their life for the their cause. I figure given the situation, 3 to 5 men intent on taking over the aircraft, possibly wired will take a minimum of two men per target to immobilize the threat, in less than 10 seconds, that is alot of shootin, and twice as much movin than you have room on any plane. No free world anti-terrorist team would execute that without at least 8-10 guys, even if the plane was parked.
Solution, someone said, superior firepower, more like superior manpower, these guys may not be armed with pistols, but they are armed, so you have to move and clear in tandem down 2 ailses together that is just how it works. The cockpit is too small, no ones reaction could be quick enough and at least one man must fire from the weak side. (providing you both don't move at the same time knocking each other out of the way) Any firearm you use must be strong enough for a single round solution, are you willing to fire that same round at the window or instrustment panel from you seat? That is where you most likely to accidently squeeze off a rushed shot...
My thoughts, panic buttons for the cabin crew, and electronic locks on the doors. The flight crew will have to deal with the after effects that you can't stop the threat but may be able to land the plane? Hopefully the government find it unnecessary to shove a missile up your tailpipe, though a missile might be more merciful? Suppose you get pistols, the bad guys know this because the PR machine wants to shout it from the rooftops and they begin to train to work your own egos and training against you, these guys do their homework and are betting on you going soft. May take years, but over those years you begin to think the pistols worked and all is well... Surprise!
I think men in black on planes, more than one, less than five, rotating tours of duty, young hard chargers from the military. The Airlines want government help, government money, well now protect my investment in that flight.
Moderator
I have a minute or two of background in weapons so put up with this for a second.
Question, what weapon would you like to use? 9mm, 45, 22?
Basically you would have to re-work the round to be used in an aircraft. Last images I saw of Federal Air Marshals training used a Sig 9mm, bad choice, your going through the person and into the airframe.
The 22 or 45 is all you have and then your only getting so many rounds or at least no first round stopping power.
We can't even talk Glaser Safety slugs, designed to penetrate first, expand second.
Sub sonic loads, who's going to make them?
United Mechanics, sure after the government signs on Remington, or Federal will probably love the contract, thats after some R&D to be sure they don't get sued for jams, malfunctions, or loss of life.
Someone will start an Armory Union to outfit you guys, take care of the weapons and ammo.
Fragable rounds don't break up when you want them too.
Next, who is going to carry it and where? The Pilot? Left seat, so your also left handed right, because your facing the wrong way and have about 3 seconds to react, so if it was me, I would put the round through my own right shoulder to hit the target in time.
So you're probably just giving the gun to the extremely & overly trained hijacker... let's not forget there is going to be about 4 to 5 guys you need to stop.
The right round to maybe not penetrate the person and plane more than likely won't cycle the pistol action, so wheel gun or manual, (only 6 rounds max in wheel?)
Word on their training, they were only trained by US, English and Russian Special Forces, in places like Fort Bragg, Scotland, and Ukraine, so these guys know what they are doing. This isn't just a last minute idea by a group of extremist.
Then we have to be able to take out at least 4 guys, probably deal with a dead passenger, fly, and live to regret it.
Does anyone know how many rounds Police Officers put into the ground during a surprise shooting? 3, a minimum of 3 rounds are going into the ground during a shooting and usually they empty the magazine, that is fact not conjecture.
So can you pull the pistol out, compose yourself and fire effectively? (facing the wrong way)
I am not sure I could, I actually would feel a bit helpless in that seat... even with a pistol, I bet I start seeing ghosts, jumping at every sound, and touching my piece more often then people would like... Distracting these toys can be.
Best chance I see is locking yourself in the cockpit, and listening to people getting executed behind the door, trying to get you to open it, not a job I want.
Another question, your locked in there, you have pistol, 4 guys have your crew and a passengers by the throat and want you out... They already killed two, people are screaming, and you decide to open the door not knowing what you will find on the other side?
You step out and two guys with women start to move towards you with their head behind the person, (they don't have to see, they can watch the ground) and as the get closer they throw the first woman at you, jump on top and wrestle the pistol away or do you shoot the women?
This is a viable scenerio, try for a leg shot?
Go through the floor, what below the aircraft baggage or avionics? Now with that wheel gun you only have 6 rounds, can both armed guys leave the cockpit and attend the problem?
Here is a scene, you're standing in the door, passengers are entering the plane, your wearing the gun, I come on last, hit you and take it, then because I can fly take off without you?
Maybe?
Guy in court took a weapon off someone today, so it can happen.
I don't know too many variables you can't control.
A pistol is not the answer, we had a saying in the Marine Corps, "Good to be hard, hard to be smart".
You're better off enlisting the Military to make flights a new duty station
and sticking more than one guy on a flight, might be good work. They are already trained, paid and available to work.
Solutions?
Last edited by Tripower455; 30th May 2002 at 04:07.
Lowlight, don't bother arguing with Tripower455 as no matter what common sense solution you may come up with, unless it's got a bloody big gun pointing at the bad guys he just won't listen and will twist everything around to suit himself.
Never mind that you're a professional, that won't count for a thing.
As a friend of mine said once, "Never have a battle of wits with an un-armed man, they'll beat you with experienec every time".
QED.
Never mind that you're a professional, that won't count for a thing.
As a friend of mine said once, "Never have a battle of wits with an un-armed man, they'll beat you with experienec every time".
QED.
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Nobody said everyone had to be armed. It should be a matter of choice. That also makes the anti's happy too as they don't have to participate, they can wait for the sidewinder. If you don't want to go through some training and HAVE THE CHOICE, you don't have to. If you are prepared to do the yards, why should you not HAVE THE CHOICE? I think some here are missing the point. If I had the choice between the sidewinder and the ability to defend myself, then I WILL go down fighting. All I would ask is that I have the tools to make it at least a possibility. The advantage of some flights being armed and some not has the added advantage of making the choices for hijackers somewhat more difficult, doesn't it? Of course, if someone HAS found that mystical all answering solution that is "less than lethal" and works, well, we are all still waiting to hear about it. Please?????
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So, Lowlight, which Islamic terrorists do you know of who were trained by British, Russian or US special forces? It is more likely that their training was carried out in the deserts of Lybia or Palestine.
And as has been said before; the viable alternative to dying at the hands of suicidal terrorists is................
Saying, "No guns on my flightdeck" is easy to say from the comfort of your armchair. When the terrorist has pulled the sharp implement from the spine of his briefcase and stuck it in your ear, with what will you confront him; reasoned argument?
And as has been said before; the viable alternative to dying at the hands of suicidal terrorists is................
Saying, "No guns on my flightdeck" is easy to say from the comfort of your armchair. When the terrorist has pulled the sharp implement from the spine of his briefcase and stuck it in your ear, with what will you confront him; reasoned argument?
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I can list a dozen or so terrorist, but Rahamutallah Safi, was trained by Russian Spetznaz in 60's, USA AND CIA at Bragg, Peary, & Pickett in 80's and Brit Regiments after (Scotland). We also trained Tibetan Rebels in Colorado, Trained others in US, Yousaf, Sayyad, Etc... Common knowlwedge these guys were brought over. We even have a US school dedicated to training South Americans... Just like we are training in Georgia, Philippines, and Yemen.
We gave 45 mil a year in training to Afghan Rebels from 7 Factions, 4 or which were "extremist".
Read "Fighting Dirty" 600+ of covert operations training.
Glaser's penetrate first, sorry will cut bulkhead up. Subsonic yes, still powerful enough to break something BIG. If you feel they are safe, take off alone, and shoot inside the plane then call me.
Question, Bulletproof vests set off metal detectors, yes or no?
A gun only protects the man carrying it, your locked in the cockpit with you gun, plane lands and crew is dead but you live, "survior guilt" anyone... Besides don't you guys have Axes already near your seats? Weak side shooting easy to teach? OK, then don't use it for a year and tell me how it goes... Who is paying for the class, who is paying for the Glocks? Ariline, or Pilot?
I will get the reports on PO, bottom line: 3 rounds aren't required to go into the ground, it is where the end up from the excitment, hand goes on pistol, finger on trigger, rounds start to fly out as they draw, called stress...
The systems needs a bunch of overhaul, but if I know your armed, I will play up to that, all I need is disrupt security, disurpt normal flight activity and get you to make 1 mistake and I set all this back 20 years, publc will turn on you, turn on Airline and turn on everyone else for arming you. The day you get armed I work towards that, may take 2 years but I work on nothing but that scenerio.
Don't get me wrong if I was flying I want a gun too, but not for any other reason but a greedy, personal, self satistifying reason, hardly as noble as protecting the plane or passengers.
Paper mache doors, get new doors, better locks along with electronic bolt locks that work off panic button, then you don't need a gun if you not exiting the cockpit.
we can go back and forth, but with looking at the total cross section of pilots, the average level of training, the training necessary to bring all up to speed and stay there, the point is lost. Effort vs Risk vs Reward, and I think the math is in Effort vs Risk's favor.
How much is a Sky Marshal paid vs a Military Soldier, Sailor or Marine? Which has large numbers, is cost effective, and can be rotated in and out before getting complacient? Plus changes the face in the seat, how about that for an unknown variable vs Solution, may not even have to overly arm them, thought alone would deter, especially if you were unsure how many guys on any given flight...
We gave 45 mil a year in training to Afghan Rebels from 7 Factions, 4 or which were "extremist".
Read "Fighting Dirty" 600+ of covert operations training.
Glaser's penetrate first, sorry will cut bulkhead up. Subsonic yes, still powerful enough to break something BIG. If you feel they are safe, take off alone, and shoot inside the plane then call me.
Question, Bulletproof vests set off metal detectors, yes or no?
A gun only protects the man carrying it, your locked in the cockpit with you gun, plane lands and crew is dead but you live, "survior guilt" anyone... Besides don't you guys have Axes already near your seats? Weak side shooting easy to teach? OK, then don't use it for a year and tell me how it goes... Who is paying for the class, who is paying for the Glocks? Ariline, or Pilot?
I will get the reports on PO, bottom line: 3 rounds aren't required to go into the ground, it is where the end up from the excitment, hand goes on pistol, finger on trigger, rounds start to fly out as they draw, called stress...
The systems needs a bunch of overhaul, but if I know your armed, I will play up to that, all I need is disrupt security, disurpt normal flight activity and get you to make 1 mistake and I set all this back 20 years, publc will turn on you, turn on Airline and turn on everyone else for arming you. The day you get armed I work towards that, may take 2 years but I work on nothing but that scenerio.
Don't get me wrong if I was flying I want a gun too, but not for any other reason but a greedy, personal, self satistifying reason, hardly as noble as protecting the plane or passengers.
Paper mache doors, get new doors, better locks along with electronic bolt locks that work off panic button, then you don't need a gun if you not exiting the cockpit.
we can go back and forth, but with looking at the total cross section of pilots, the average level of training, the training necessary to bring all up to speed and stay there, the point is lost. Effort vs Risk vs Reward, and I think the math is in Effort vs Risk's favor.
How much is a Sky Marshal paid vs a Military Soldier, Sailor or Marine? Which has large numbers, is cost effective, and can be rotated in and out before getting complacient? Plus changes the face in the seat, how about that for an unknown variable vs Solution, may not even have to overly arm them, thought alone would deter, especially if you were unsure how many guys on any given flight...
Last edited by Lowlight; 30th May 2002 at 14:30.
Moderator
Lowlight, don't bother arguing with Tripower455 as no matter what common sense solution you may come up with, unless it's got a bloody big gun pointing at the bad guys he just won't listen and will twist everything around to suit himself.
Or you for that matter.
18 Wheeler, refute ONE statement I have made on this issue with FACTS...... all we get out of you is generally smarmy one liners filled with innuendo and little logic.
Never mind that you're a professional, that won't count for a thing.
As a friend of mine said once, "Never have a battle of wits with an un-armed man, they'll beat you with experienec every time".
QED.
QED.
"What common sense solution has low light come up with???????
Or you for that matter."
They have been posted here by many people, hpwever you choose to ignore them for the very reasons I wrote above.
"Professional WHAT"
That's written above, I assumed that you could read. But you continue to prove otherwise.
There is no point in responding further to you, as you will no doubt continue to twist things to suit yourself.
You are an embarrasment to the trade and I seriously doubt your ability to command any aircraft.
Or you for that matter."
They have been posted here by many people, hpwever you choose to ignore them for the very reasons I wrote above.
"Professional WHAT"
That's written above, I assumed that you could read. But you continue to prove otherwise.
There is no point in responding further to you, as you will no doubt continue to twist things to suit yourself.
You are an embarrasment to the trade and I seriously doubt your ability to command any aircraft.
Moderator
I can list a dozen or so terrorist, but Rahamutallah Safi, was trained by Russian Spetznaz in 60's, USA AND CIA at Bragg, Peary, & Pickett in 80's and Brit Regiments after (Scotland). We also trained Tibetan Rebels in Colorado, Trained others in US, Yousaf, Sayyad, Etc... Common knowlwedge these guys were brought over. We even have a US school dedicated to training South Americans... Just like we are training in Georgia, Philippines, and Yemen.
We gave 45 mil a year in training to Afghan Rebels from 7 Factions, 4 or which were "extremist".
We gave 45 mil a year in training to Afghan Rebels from 7 Factions, 4 or which were "extremist".
So, your solution is to sit there and try to fight these highly trained guys off with the crash axe and fire extinguisher?
Glaser's penetrate first, sorry will cut bulkhead up. Subsonic yes, still powerful enough to break something BIG. If you feel they are safe, take off alone, and shoot inside the plane then call me.
Question, Bulletproof vests set off metal detectors, yes or no?
A gun only protects the man carrying it, your locked in the cockpit with you gun, plane lands and crew is dead but you live, "survior guilt" anyone...
Besides don't you guys have Axes already near your seats?
Weak side shooting easy to teach? OK, then don't use it for a year and tell me how it goes...
Who is paying for the class, who is paying for the Glocks? Ariline, or Pilot?
I would be happy to provide my own weapon and pay for the training myself given the opportunity.
I will get the reports on PO, bottom line: 3 rounds aren't required to go into the ground, it is where the end up from the excitment, hand goes on pistol, finger on trigger, rounds start to fly out as they draw, called stress...
The systems needs a bunch of overhaul, but if I know your armed, I will play up to that, all I need is disrupt security, disurpt normal flight activity and get you to make 1 mistake and I set all this back 20 years, publc will turn on you, turn on Airline and turn on everyone else for arming you.
The day you get armed I work towards that, may take 2 years but I work on nothing but that scenerio.
et me wrong if I was flying I want a gun too, but not for any other reason but a greedy, personal, self satistifying reason, hardly as noble as protecting the plane or passengers.
paper mache doors, get new doors, better locks along with electronic bolt locks that work off panic button, then you don't need a gun if you not exiting the cockpit.
we can go back and forth, but with looking at the total cross section of pilots, the average level of training, the training necessary to bring all up to speed and stay there, the point is lost. Effort vs Risk vs Reward, and I think the math is in Effort vs Risk's favor.
How much is a Sky Marshal paid vs a Military Soldier, Sailor or Marine? Which has large numbers, is cost effective, and can be rotated in and out before getting complacient?
Plus changes the face in the seat, how about that for an unknown variable vs Solution, may not even have to overly arm them, thought alone would deter, especially if you were unsure how many guys on any given flight...
Last edited by Tripower455; 30th May 2002 at 16:03.